71% of Gazans believe what’s happening now in Gaza is a worthwhile cost of the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel - Politics Discussion

[–] Keelai (32077) a month ago

Palestinians are fighting for their land, freedom, justice and basic human rights against an evil oppressor who is stealing their land and killing young children since 1948.

I told you months ago that the Zionists would never win. It's like the Rebel Alliance (Palestinians) fighting against the Evil Empire (Zionists). People fighting for a just cause are always willing to die for it.

Hamas has support because they are willing to die to protect Palestinian land from an evil invader while other leaders are puppets of the U.S. and Zionists.

You don't understand basic history. This scenario has repeated many times.

Israel has already lost. 2-state solution coming.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

You're just completely ignoring the actual issue I brought up here. After 5 months of war, tens of thousands dead, thousands of buildings destroyed or damaged and with Gaza mostly occupied by IDF troops, 71% of Gazans now believe the Hamas attack was all worth it. It disproves the claim that what they're going through is completely unbearable suffering. You claimed yourself here in an OP title that it's similar to the Holocaust. This poll proves that's total nonsense because no group of people could go through anything like the Holocaust and then be able to defeat in battle the perpetrator of such an enormous genocide. The poll proves the absurdity of people all over the world panicking over the situation in Gaza when 71% of Gazans believe that the action that directly led to this catastrophe was actually the right one. The people of Gaza are just insane.

Everything you tell me here is just the usual combination of Keelai lies and idiocy. Hamas is NOT fighting for justice or basic human rights. It's fighting for Islamism and the total subjugation of Jews. I already explained that to you numerous times. That you have to repeatedly ignore what I tell you about Hamas just shows that you damn well know you're completely wrong about what you say the Palestinians are fighting for.

Your comparison of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to Star Wars is completely idiotic. Star Wars is a sci-fi space opera. It's not reality and doesn't come anywhere close to approximating it. Everything that happens in Star Wars is determined by the Force, which doesn't exist in the real world. The Rebel Alliance won because of the Force. And the rebels' victory at the end of Return of the Jedi was just temporary. Eventually, the First Order came along and replaced the Empire. The First Order was eventually defeated but another evil military force involved with the Sith could one day come along to try to reconquer the galaxy, depending on if Disney does another sequel trilogy.

People fighting for a just cause don't always win. The initial Muslim empire is a perfect example. The non-Muslims who justly fought to resist the evil Muslim colonialist invaders in the Middle Ages nearly all lost. The Spaniards were an exception. The Native American tribes that resisted the Europeans and European-Americans all lost as well. Even if you were right about this then it means Israel will win. The Israelis are fighting for survival. They have nowhere to retreat to. On the other hand, the Palestinians can always just retreat to the surrounding Arab countries like they did in 1948.

Telling me I "don't understand basic history" just jinxes you. Every single time you've told me that you've just been completely moronic and completely wrong. Israel hasn't lost anything. The "2-state solution" is impossible unless the IDF completely defeats Hamas in Gaza. Even then the "2-state solution" would be nowhere close to "coming":

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/two-state-delusion

The Al Aqsa Intifada just pushed the "2-state solution" further away instead of bringing it closer. Why the hell would the 10/7 attack be any different? International pushes for the "2-state solution" only help the political forces in Israel that vehemently oppose it:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/biden-scheme-for-palestinian-state-strengthens-netanyahu

Stop being a lazy bum and actually read these articles. You'll actually learn a lot about the political realities in Israel.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

You can stop showing us over and over and over again that you do not care at all for the innocent civilians in Gaza who suffer and die first from an illegal blockade and now this genocidal ethnic cleansing which puts them through this holocaust.
We get that.
You can stop with it.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

You're not even addressing the actual issue under discussion here. It's NOT about how much I care about the civilians in Gaza. It's all about what Gazans themselves think about everything that's happened to them. You refer to it as "this holocaust". If it's really a "holocaust" then it means that the 71% of Gazans going through it for 5 months who still believe that the Hamas attack was still worth the cost are completely insane. This is an issue where your anti-Israel hyperbole really just hurts your argument rather than helping it.

Do you have anything at all to say about the actual issue I brought up for discussion here?

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

You should have read the fine print in the intro which explains the way they take the poll, who they asked and what the answers mean.
Instead you ignored that because you have a hard on for loving any justification for the murder of the innocents and you wrongly think this poll gives you that.

You would have seen: "It is clear from the findings however, that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas. Instead, the findings show that three quarters of the Palestinians believe that the offensive has put the Palestinian-Israeli issue at the center of attention after years of neglect at the regional and international levels."

This is true.
If it had not been for the actions of the Hamas freedom fighters then I would not have known of the illegal blockade and the horrid conditions of suffering Israel put them through.

You would have also seen that not everyone asked was in Gaza, as you wrongly claim.
They also asked those in the W. Bank of which makes up the majority for the poll:
"The sample size of this poll is 1580 adults, of whom 830 were interviewed face to face in the West Bank (in 83 locations) and 750 in the Gaza Strip (in 75 locations). Given the uncertainty about the population distribution in the Gaza Strip, we almost doubled the size of the sample in that area in order to lower the margin of error, which stands at +/-3%. The combined West Bank-Gaza Strip data file was reweighed."

Therefore it is a holocaust the terrorist IDF is putting the Gazans through.
The Jews do not have a monopoly on that word nor are they the world's biggest victims even though they like to be crybabies as if they are. Not when they make others suffer and murder as they are doing here. Again.
Fuck Israel.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

You're paying so little attention to what I'm saying you don't even realize that the point you're making proves me right. I already read the language from the poll you quoted about the reasons for Palestinians' support for the attack. I already know that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas made the right choice to carry out the attack because it refocused the world's attention on their political cause. That's exactly why I said they're completely insane. Nothing you're saying here proves me wrong about that. You just continue to prove me right. And it's absurd for the survey to claim that support for the Hamas attack doesn't equate to support for Hamas itself in light of the fact that the survey showed that 52% of Gazans prefer to have Hamas stay in control of Gaza. Which means the vast majority of that 71% of Gazans who believe Hamas made the right decision to attack Israel support Hamas in general.

You again refer to the situation in Gaza as "a holocaust". No sane person would believe that an action that led to a holocaust of their people was the correct choice. No sane person would choose to go through a holocaust to advance their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then the Palestinians have already lost far more than they could possibly gain from the global advancement of their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then no sane person in Gaza could possibly conclude at this point in time 5 months into the war that the advancement of the Palestinian political cause made the Hamas attack worth it.

On top of that, those 71% of Gazans didn't consider the possibility that the Hamas attack wouldn't ultimately further their cause on the international stage. The world's attention is short and there's always other crises the world has to deal with. There's no guarantee that anything that's happened in Gaza or Israel over the past 6 months will lead to any permanent changes in how the rest of the world deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

What's happening in Gaza is certainly not a "holocaust" by any stretch. No group would actually be willing to go through a genuine holocaust just to advance their political cause. That 71% of Gazans believe the attack was worth it 5 months into this war proves that they really don't consider their current situation to be really that bad. That 71% statistic speaks enormous volumes about how Gazans really feel about their current situation. They view it as entirely manageable.

Calling the war in Gaza a "holocaust" is just extremely offensive and shows how little you know about the actual Holocaust. So far, just over 30,000 Gazans have been killed. That pales in comparison to the 300,000-600,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombing during World War II and the 0.5-2.5 million killed during the ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe after the war, which is that much less than the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust. That was 6 million out of 9 million Jews in Europe before the war. 90% of the 3 million Jews in Poland were killed. 95% of the Jews in Lithuania were killed. Jewish children in Europe born after 1930 had less than a 2% survival rate. Jewish toddlers and infants in Eastern Europe had less than a 1% survival rate. And you dare to compare the deaths of a mere 30,000 people to all of that!

Everything else you say here is also completely wrong. I never claimed that "everyone" in Gaza participated in this poll. Where the hell did you get the idea that I claimed otherwise? I'm well aware of how opinion polls work. I'm also well aware that the same poll was also conducted in the West Bank. The National Review article about the poll I linked to in the OP said that. I only mentioned that one statistic in the poll from Gaza because I just wanted to show what the people actually experiencing the war think about the Hamas attack that started it.

It's completely absurd for you to refer to Hamas as "freedom fighters". As I already explained to you, Hamas are really just Islamo-imperialists who would like Islam to conquer the entire world. They seek to slaughter all Israeli Jews. They made no real attempt to actually "free" the people of Gaza. They didn't end the blockade with their attack and their attack wasn't even designed to end it. They didn't take permanent control of any Israeli territory nor did they even try to. They did nothing to stop the IDF from invading the Gaza Strip and carried out the attack knowing the IDF would do so. Hamas are NOT "freedom fighters" by any stretch.

And for the last time, the Israeli blockade of Gazs was NOT illegal:

https://jcpa.org/text/puzzle1.pdf
(pages 19-22)

You have absolutely no room to tell me I'm wrong about this. After you repeatedly refused to read that essay I then summarized its explanation of the legality of the blockade and you still refused to engage with it. You completely lost the debate on this issue and I won. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was legal. End of story.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

TL:DR

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

Absolutely pathetic! You're completely obnoxious. You can't arrogantly tell me that I'm wrong about everything and then refuse to even try to prove me wrong when I explain why I'm right. Your response is just a combination of laziness and dishonesty. Could you at least read the first 3 paragraphs of my last post:

You're paying so little attention to what I'm saying you don't even realize that the point you're making proves me right. I already read the language from the poll you quoted about the reasons for Palestinians' support for the attack. I already know that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas made the right choice to carry out the attack because it refocused the world's attention on their political cause. That's exactly why I said they're completely insane. Nothing you're saying here proves me wrong about that. You just continue to prove me right. And it's absurd for the survey to claim that support for the Hamas attack doesn't equate to support for Hamas itself in light of the fact that the survey showed that 52% of Gazans prefer to have Hamas stay in control of Gaza. Which means the vast majority of that 71% of Gazans who believe Hamas made the right decision to attack Israel support Hamas in general.

You again refer to the situation in Gaza as "a holocaust". No sane person would believe that an action that led to a holocaust of their people was the correct choice. No sane person would choose to go through a holocaust to advance their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then the Palestinians have already lost far more than they could possibly gain from the global advancement of their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then no sane person in Gaza could possibly conclude at this point in time 5 months into the war that the advancement of the Palestinian political cause made the Hamas attack worth it.

On top of that, those 71% of Gazans didn't consider the possibility that the Hamas attack wouldn't ultimately further their cause on the international stage. The world's attention is short and there's always other crises the world has to deal with. There's no guarantee that anything that's happened in Gaza or Israel over the past 6 months will lead to any permanent changes in how the rest of the world deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

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[–] CountJohn (579) a month ago

Palestinians are fighting for their land, freedom, justice and basic human rights against

Why is it "their" land? The overwhelming majority of Palestinians have never even set foot in the land they're trying to annex. A "Palestinian" state has without exaggeration never existed in the history of the world and the last time an Arab government controlled the region was when it was a part of Egypt in the middle ages. They have about as much credibility as Russia claiming Ukraine is "their" land.

"Freedom, justice, and basic human rights" for whom exactly? Certainly not women, gays, or anyone who happens to not be Muslim. If there's a relatively liberal democracy fighting a war against authoritarian theocrats I'm going to pick the liberal democracy every time.

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[–] Keelai (32077) a month ago

Ancient Romans named the land, Palestina.

Muslims, Jews and Christians were living peacefully in Palestine before Zionists arrived.

Israel is a settler colonialist project to steal all land while ethnic-cleansing the Palestinian population. 750,000 Palestinians were ethnic-cleansed in 1948.
'Plan Dalet' or 'Plan D' = ethnic-cleansing

Israel = tyranny
Non-Jews, including Christians, are discriminated, ethnic-cleansed with no basic rights in Israel. 500,000 Palestinian Christian refugees in Chile because of Zionism.

NonJews:
Arrests and long term imprisonment without charges, including young children = tyranny
Lose home, land, farm animals, job = tyranny
No freedom to walk, drive, or move freely in and out of country = tyranny
Right of return denied = tyranny
Illegal to build houses, water wells, compete with Jewish merchants = tyranny
Occupation and blockade of food, water, medicine, goods = tyranny
NonJews forced to give up their house, land and farms to Jewish people based solely on religion = tyranny

Yakub, Jewish New Yorker with Brooklyn dialect just off the plane has more basic rights than a Palestinian with a house deed whose family has lived in Palestine for millennia.

Palestinian woman:
“You know this isn't your house. You are stealing my house,” she insists.

Jewish New Yorker:
“And if I don’t steal it, someone else is going to steal it.”
https://youtu.be/kKRi7JlXHfI?si=w55sUJproi0gO1uu

Israel controls the entire land and its people through occupation, blockades and apartheid laws. Democracy doesn't exist where half the population has no rights. Only Jews have rights.

Several presidents, including Carter, complained about Israelis purposely ruining peace initiatives. Israeli historians have agreed. The reason is because Israelis never wanted peace. They only want land which is ethnic-cleansed.

Educate yourself! Some books I recommend:

Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid by Jimmy Carter
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History by Nur Masalha
Ten Myths About Israel By Ilan Pappe
On Palestine by Noam Chomsky

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[–] Porsche911 (2604) a month ago

https://x.com/ryanrozbiani/status/1773411943312724418?s=46&t=veox07EZp4AKnPBj_ooPpA

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

Wow
That sums it all up.
Thanx for that show and tell.

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[–] TrentnQuarantino (8599) a month ago

Or naturally Israel would donate to politicians who support it.
Israel is totally in the right here. This cannot go on forever, and
Palestinians refuse to stop fighting and refuse to make peace,
and that is pretty much all of them, because from the moment
they're born they have a death threat over them from Hamas, or
the inhuman norms of their society to conform, to believe they
must die a martyr for Allah, and if they refuse they are likely to be
murdered publically and made an example of.

Not exactly the tolerent, liberal or progressive, democratic society
the far left is supposed to be supporting.

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[–] ur4196727 (100) a month ago

The full poll for those who want more than one cherry picked stat: https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

A few other ones from it:
60% say at least one member of their family has been killed.
Support for a two-state solution increased by 27-points in the Gaza strip.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

Thanx.
Yeah, Rusty ShackleTurd will spin everything in his favor to show why civilians in war do not matter.
The ones he hates that is.

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[–] Keelai (32077) a month ago

Thank you. Very informative poll.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

You talk about these other stats from the poll as if they somehow counter the stat I was talking about or disprove the point I was making. But they really don't. The fact that 60% of Gazans have had a family member killed doesn't really say anything by itself about what they think. It's just a dry fact. But it does prove just how significant it is that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas was right to carry out the October 7th attack against Israel. The fact that most Gazans have had a family member killed yet still believe that Hamas made the right choice by carrying out the attack proves the insanity of their outlook.

The 27% increase in support by Gazans for the so-called "2-state solution" doesn't really prove anything either. Their understanding of the "2-state solution" is that it's really just a 2-state phase. It simply means getting Israelis out of their immediate presence. They believe that they'll eventually conquer the rest of Israel. They don't really want to live in permanent peace with Israel. Furthermore, the 71% support for the Hamas attack proves they don't believe they'll actually have to do the hard work of making peace with Israel to get to the 2-state solution. Their idea of getting to the 2-state solution simply means forcing the Israelis to leave Gaza and the West Bank. They see the Hamas attack as part of that effort. The poll shows that only 23% of Gazans support negotiating their way to the 2-state solution. Finally, the 2-state solution is impossible with Hamas in power because of its religious devotion to a permanent war against Israel's existence. Yet 59% of Gazans want Hamas to return to power in Gaza.

Even by itself, the 71% support for the 10/7 attack speaks enormous volumes about the thinking of Gazans. It tells us that the vast majority of them believe that all that's happened to them since October is an acceptable cost of advancing the Palestinian cause. It tells us that the vast majority of them believe that massive violence against Israel will get them what they want. Why should they negotiate at all when massive violence will get them what they want? Why should they compromise on any issue when massive violence will get them everything they want? Even if they got a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza then they could use massive violence to get even more from Israel, even its complete destruction.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

You should go to the link and read the intro of the poll which shows their thoughts which are more real and genuine than the ones you make up.
Unless you like to gaslight yourself and then look like a fool with all this bullshit you keep spewing out.
Which is not surprising seeing how you object to someone showing us the source of the poll itself instead of a news story about it to spin in your favor.
How sad and embarrassing it must be for you that we get to see just how full of shit you really are which is based on nothing on fear mongering with no sympathy for the innocents.

You're just a crackpot who is really clueless and refuses to go by facts and would rather go by bullshit and other made up things.

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[–] TrentnQuarantino (8599) a month ago

You have a lot of accusations and insults in your words, but the facts do not support you no matter how nasty you get ... you know, kind of like the Palestinians themselves.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

Another crackpot full of shit who cannot handle truths.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

You're the one who can't handle truths. You refuse to even read half my responses to you and you never admit it when I prove you wrong about anything. Prove me wrong by actually reading my last comment addressed to you to which you responded by saying "TL:DR".

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

I did read the introduction to the survey. How is it more "real" or "genuine" than anything I said in my response to ur4196727? I even cited 2 other statistics from the survey in that comment. Can you explain to me how anything I said to ur4196727 is actually wrong?

And how the hell did I "object to" ur4196727 linking to the full survey results themselves? I did no such thing! I merely explained to ur4196727 why the 2 additional statistics from the survey that he mentioned in his comment didn't actually prove me wrong about what I said concerning the one statistic I already mentioned.

This is what you get for not actually reading my comments before you respond to them. You're clearly the clueless one who refuses to go by the facts. You don't even know what the facts are. You're just drowning in your own delusions and you don't even know it.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a month ago

You think an article which spins it is more important than what comes from the source itself.

If you had even an ounce of honesty then you would have shown it from the source instead of a bogus article that is in line with your hating agenda.

You are just another crackpot who is so full of shit that you lack any awareness.
Figures.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

How exactly does the National Review article "spin" the poll? Can you explain that to me? There's nothing dishonest about linking to a news article about a poll instead of the poll itself. Getting that information from a secondary source doesn't change the information. Furthermore, the article links directly to the poll itself. I assumed that people who actually took the time to look at the article would then go directly to the poll if they were interested in learning more about it. And it's not as if I had any actual obligation to link to anything at all in my OP.

You're the one with a "hating" agenda against Israel. You're the one completely lacking in any awareness. You repeatedly expose your ignorance, which is compounded by your refusal to read half my responses.

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[–] Rorikon (16447) a month ago

Only solution is a 2-state one. If and when that is established they do terry stuff again, I think Neety would have proven his point in that Palestinians and Hamas really do want to wipe out Israel and therefore they should all be wiped out. Right now people are complaining on both sides since one is wanting to let them fester again while the other wants to wipe them out completely right now before it can happen again.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

There are enormous obstacles to the 2-state solution:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/two-state-delusion

The 2-state solution is impossible to even start negotiating towards as long as Hamas remains in power in Gaza. Hamas has vowed to carry out more attacks against Israel like October 7th until Israel is completely destroyed:

https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/

And the Palestinians see the "2-state solution" as just the start of fully conquering Israel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program

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[–] almonigal (1134) a month ago

Make a state of palestine on the west bank. Simple. People there suffered enough, they were butchered without reason because hamas from gaza attacked israel.
Retreat all state sponsored terrorists from there and thats it.
Gaza problem should be solved after hamas is eliminated

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

Creating a Palestinian state in the West Bank is certainly not simple. There are many obstacles to establishing such a state:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/two-state-delusion

Does establishing such a state mean Israel just leaves the West Bank and then lets the Palestinians figure out how to organize their state? What if the West Bank Palestinian leadership refuses to negotiate a West Bank-only state as long as Hamas is in charge of Gaza or as long as Israel occupies Gaza? A West Bank-only state won't make it any easier to come to an agreement on refugees. And then there's the problem of the Palestinians seeing the "2-state solution" as just the start of fully conquering Israel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program

People weren't "butchered" in the West Bank without reason. There was a large increase in Palestinian violence in the West Bank after October 7th. There's been 295 Palestinian terrorist attacks in the West Bank since then:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/fraudulent-case-against-violent-settlers

Hamas can only be eliminated in Gaza if the IDF completes its military operation in Gaza. It's my understanding that you want the IDF to stop its military operation in Gaza.

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[–] almonigal (1134) a month ago

The genocide in West Bank is happening without reason. Approx 500 palestinians have been butchered by idf forces or terrorist forces masking as settlers in 2023 alone. All in the name of stealing land.
13 thousand palestinians were maimed or disabled in 2023 alone in the west bank, all in the name of land theft.
There were no terrorist attacks, only people resisting land theft by terrorist forces.
IDF is murdering, maiming and bombing people who refuse to abandon their homes. And whey don't do that, they run them over with bulldozers.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

"Genocide" in the West Bank?! What "genocide"?! The West Bank has had a continually growing population for over half a century. I already explained to you why what's happening in Gaza isn't genocide so the deaths of 500 people in the West Bank is that much more clearly not genocide. This has nothing to do with stealing land. Israelis don't get control of land just because Palestinians die. There have in fact been 295 Palestinian terrorist attacks in the West Bank since October 7th. The following article explains the truth about the violence in the West Bank:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/fraudulent-case-against-violent-settlers

Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank doesn't magically disappear just because you find it inconvenient.

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[–] almonigal (1134) a month ago

They just murder people who protect their land and call them terrorists.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

No, they don't. That's not what's going on. Just read the article so you understand what's really happening in the West Bank.

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[–] almonigal (1134) a month ago

Lol. "Lawmakers pressed the Israeli officials, going so far as to assert that uniformed IDF soldiers were escorting Israeli settlers to attack Palestinians." Proceeds to tell this is false.
When me and 90% of the planet saw countless videos of soldiers escorting settlers.
or
"In the past 12 months, 13 Israelis were murdered by Palestinians in Jerusalem and 17 in the West Bank—not counting those slaughtered on Oct. 7, 2023—while doing nothing more provocative than driving home or stopping for gas. The number of Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis under such conditions over the same time period is zero."
So they claim to have killed 0 palestinians in west bank the past year.

Does this terrorist propaganda publication think people are retarded ? They are straight up fabricating shit.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) a month ago

I haven't seen any videos of Israeli soldiers escorting settlers to attack Palestinians. No Palestinian civilians were killed by Israelis under such conditions over that time period. The facts are what they are.