Israel is a non-religious "religious state", which is odd - Politics Discussion

[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

"If you are Jewish, regardless of race, you can claim citizenship, and move there."

Not true.

"they don't want to behave as Jews."

Which Jews? There are secular, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Buddhist, Christian, etc.. Being Jewish is a religion AND ethnicity.

"Abortion is allowed."

Abortion is allowed in Judaism.

The point of Israel was to have a SAFE place for Jewish people. It's not working out that way considering the location and ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians. Clearly, nobody thought it through in the 1940s.

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[–] Ticketsplease (4024) 6 months ago

Oh how naive to think that the founders of Israel thought that it could be a safe place for "their people" when to take that land you would have to push people out.

Now some say that Palestinians sold their homes to them, but just like today home owners are not necessarily those who occupy the home. Tenants can have their home sold from under them.

I believe the mindset of the Zionists was similar to those who lead the crusades, "we're taking back what is our own."

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

The State of Israel is simply a matter of survival for Jews. The mindset of the Zionists was Jewish survival. This is the reason for Israel:

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/65301cb5ca1d095d0bb7cf92/Israel-is-a-necessary-refuge-for-Jews-in-the-theocratic-hateful-and-repressive-Muslim-world

Without Israel Jews couldn't even exist in the Muslim world.

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

"Without Israel Jews couldn't even exist in the Muslim world."

That's a dumb comment! Jews have lived in Muslim countries for centuries and were treated better than in Christian countries. Israel's creation through ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was the reason Jews began to be kicked out of Muslim countries starting in 1947.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

It's not a dumb comment. I'm talking about the present day and you're talking about history. Your comment is dumb. You act as if you keep talking about history it will make the Muslim world's problems in the present just disappear. It won't.

You ignore the fact that the Arab countries threatened to expel their Jews before the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians even started. The Arab countries responding to Israel's establishment with the expulsion of their Jews was a reflection of their pre-existing hatred of Jews.

The indisputable fact is that the Muslim world of the 21st Century is completely intolerant of Jews. You can blame Israel's existence for the Muslim world's intolerance of Jews all you want but that doesn't magically change the fact of that intolerance. And that means there's nothing dumb about my claim that "Without Israel Jews couldn't even exist in the Muslim world."

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

Israel's existence started the expulsion:
https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/the-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries-and-iran--an-untold-history

"The Israeli government dedicated November 30 of every year as a day to honor and remember the Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries following 1948’s Arab-Israeli War."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries

You know zip about Jewish history, culture and religion.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

First off, congratulations on totally giving up on trying to prove me wrong on my claim that "Without Israel Jews couldn't even exist in the Muslim world." I take your complete abandonment of that issue as implicit acknowledgment that I'm right that without Israel Jews couldn't even exist in the Muslim world.

Second, none of your links prove your claim that Israel's establishment "caused" the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. The World Jewish Congress article does NOT say that Israel's establishment "started" the expulsion. It merely says that the expulsion happened after Israel was established. Your quote from the Jewish Virtual Library article also does not prove you right. It merely says that Jews were expelled from Arab countries "following" Israel's establishment. It does NOT say that Israel's establishment "caused" that expulsion. Are you just too stupid to understand that one event happening after another event does NOT prove that the first event caused the second event?

The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries was an arbitrary decision made by the leaders of those countries after Israel was established. Israel's establishment didn't force them to do it. It was entirely an arbitrary decision they made out of hatred against Jews.

Learn to read, you illiterate buffoon. You're too stupid to know who does or doesn't know zip about Jewish history, culture and religion.

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

You sound similar to a Flat-Earther I know. Your refusal to acknowledge facts and logic because you find reality inconvenient to your biased opinion. I provide links to facts and history. You provide your Islamophobia.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

*You're* the one who finds reality inconvenient to your biased opinion. You have not provided a *sound argument*. As I have explained in detail, the facts you show here do NOT prove me wrong about anything. Why don't you actually *engage* with the arguments that I have made? Why don't you actually *explain* why my argument is wrong?

As usual, you've completely lost the argument and you're too stupid to even know that you've lost it.

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

The point of Israel was a safe haven for Jews against European anti-Semitism especially under Hitler.

There was a colonialist mindset from both the British and European Jews. Neither believed the Palestinians would fight back against their land being stolen and that other Arab countries would react negatively, too.

Realistically, Israel appears to be a perpetual war zone.

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[–] Ticketsplease (4024) 6 months ago

It should have always stayed a British territory or UN governed, given the dynamics of the region. It certainly isn't just Jewish land.

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

Britain made a mess of things.

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[–] Rorikon (16444) 6 months ago

Man, I wonder what everyone else would feel if Native Indians were backed by a superpower that gave them modern weaponry so they can take land back in the US from the current residents eh? Betcha those current occupiers would claim the land is theirs and was stolen via colonialism.

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[–] Ticketsplease (4024) 6 months ago

And arguably, given it is only several generations ago, they have a much stronger claim to the land. Also, as the Bible states, Israel was occupied when they invaded initially.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

Keelai,

"Abortion is allowed in Judaism."

Do NOT dare tell me again that I'm wrong about this unless you're going to at least try to prove it. How many times do I have to tell you that Judaism is generally opposed to most abortion:

https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/sufflr26&div=54&id=&page=

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

Your heavily edited 1-page link which is cut-off in midsentence is a joke.

In Judaism:

* Abortion is allowed in Judaism.
* Life begins at birth.
* The mother's physical, psychological and spiritual health always takes precedence over a fetus.
* A fetus is considered a part of the mother and not an individual being.
https://jayaramlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Complaint_1.pdf

I assume you're no longer pretending to be Jewish. I don't believe you ever met anyone Jewish.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

Well, you finally cited a source in support of your claim that Judaism supports abortion. That's a start. But the lawsuit you cite here was done by Reform rabbis. When I told you that Judaism is generally against abortion I was talking about Orthodox Judaism. According to Orthodox Judaism, halacha does not allow most abortions. In halacha, it is not the norm to allow abortion. Halacha allows abortion only under certain circumstances, generally in order to protect the mother's physical health.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/abortion-in-judaism

"almost all major poskim (Rabbis qualified to decide matters of Jewish law) forbid abortion in cases of abnormalities or deformities found in a fetus"

And I never "pretended" to be Jewish. As I have consistently maintained, I grew up Jewish but am now no longer religious. You base your stupid nonsense claim that I'm not Jewish on my supposed ignorance of Judaism's view on abortion as if every Jew in the 21st Century gets an in depth education about the halacha of abortion. You stupidly claim to not believe that I've never even met a Jewish person as if the typical Jew talks about Judaism's view on abortion every single time they meet another person. Do you even realize how absurd that sounds?

The truth is the vast majority of Jews don't know anything about the halacha of abortion. I went to a Jewish school from pre-school through high school and in that entire time I didn't learn squat about the halacha or religious outlook on abortion. The entire time I was at Jewish school the religious instruction never even touched on the subject of abortion. Learning about the halacha on abortion is not common in general Jewish education.

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

Read, again! All Judaism allows for abortions! All Jews read from the same source in the Torah. The Florida lawsuit party is Reform Jews.

How come you claim to be Jewish, but you don't know anything about Judaism?

"The truth is the vast majority of Jews don't know anything about the halacha of abortion."

You mean, you don't know anything! Real Jews, not you since you're lying, have a basic understanding of Judaism's position in regard to when life begins, if abortion is allowed, ethics in regard to life, women's role and sexuality in the same way that Roman Catholics, Evangelicals and other denominations know about these things.

Why do you feel the need to lie? Your Hebrew should be excellent with all of that Jewish education.

You sound like a dopey Evangelical who knows nothing about Judaism nor has ever socialized with Jewish people.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

*You* read again. Read the article I showed you. I don't deny that Orthodox Judaism "allows" abortions. My point is that Orthodox Judaism is *generally opposed* to abortion. It's generally opposed to most abortions. It's *generally* anti-abortion. See the difference?

I'm not lying about being Jewish. *You're* lying when you claim to believe that I'm not Jewish. You don't even realize just how completely moronic and enormously bad your argument is that I'm not Jewish because of my supposed ignornace about Judaism's view on abortion. As I already explained to you, *MOST* Jews know literally nothing about the halacha concerning abortion. Got that? *MOST* Jews. Most Jews nowadays don't get a basic education about Judaism, much less learn anything about the halacha of abortion. You're just making it up as you go along.

If you're so certain that you're right that "real Jews" "have a basic understanding of Judaism's position in regard to when life begins, if abortion is allowed, ethics in regard to life, women's role and sexuality" then why don't you provide *statistics* to prove it? Go ahead and provide statistics that prove you right about this. Make my day!

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[–] Keelai (32064) 6 months ago

"Most Jews nowadays don't get a basic education about Judaism"
Speak for yourself. But, I still don't believe you're Jewish.

Aren't your parents and the rest of family still religious? Which Kosher certification do they follow now and which one did you follow in the past?

Can you explain your definition of "moderate orthodox"?

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2025) 6 months ago

I have the facts on my side. If you're so certain that you're right that "real Jews" "have a basic understanding of Judaism's position in regard to when life begins, if abortion is allowed, ethics in regard to life, women's role and sexuality" then why don't you provide *statistics* to prove it? Go ahead and provide statistics that prove you right about this.

My mom is still religious. She follows ⓤ kosher certification. I did the same when I was growing up. I define "moderate orthodox" as embracing some but not all aspects of Orthodox Jewish life.

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[–] ultravioletx (10216) 6 months ago

It's because Jewishness is passed on from mother to child regardless of religion. It's a cultural trait and not explicitly in one's DNA no matter what 23andme tries to tell you.

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[–] almonigal (1133) 6 months ago

Wait, isnt is jewness?

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[–] Corbell (8486) 6 months ago

Judiasm is both a religion and an ethnicity.

Like most modern societies it is struggling with conflicts between a more religious past and an increasingly secular present.

This causes both cultural and political problems for them.

But that does not make their state any less "real".

Unless YOU personally believe that the right to national sovereignty flows from obeying God's laws?

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