MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion > Let’s talk about what happens... *SPOILE...

Let’s talk about what happens... SPOILERS

posted 5 years ago by Aphrodite (110)
25 replies | jump to latest

DO NOT READ AHEAD UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE!!!!

Just got back from the theatre and wow... thought I’d make a thread for everyone who saw it so we could all talk about what happens, share our thoughts, cry it out, whatever...

AGAIN, LEAVE THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE!! SPOILERS AHEAD!!
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Alright. Wow, I have to say that was just incredible. I’m so glad the movie went the way I hoped it out. Love Cap’s ending. I was really hoping he would finally get the ending I hoped for him. Tony....what can I say, I couldn’t stop crying. I knew it was coming though, no way he would just retire.

Just....man it was so good. My theatre broke out into applause at least like 5 times. Especially that scene with the Hammer! Oh man, I think even Thor knew Steve was faking it before. 😉 Sam though....I wish it was Bucky. Sam is cool and all, but come on? Oh well, that was my one little disappointment.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

Cap's ending, as good as it was, destroyed the entire premise about multiverse timeline that has been previously explained by Tonny and Bruce, so there is that.

I don't think Steve was faking it before, he did move the hammer just a tiny bit. But I think it's about all of the things that happened to him after that, all those tragedies and he still maintains his honor, I think that was what made him worthy.

In the comic, Sam did inherit Cap's shield. And I think that Bucky is already tired fighting for more than a half century, he probably wants to retire too.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Well technically (and I’ve read some thoughts from other people as well), we never did find out who Peggy married. We just know she married someone who Cap saved the day he rescued Bucky and the other Commandos from Red Skull. But we never find out who. Some people say maybe Steve fulfilled his destiny, after seeing his picture on Peggy’s desk in the 70s. Maybe he remembered or knew that she married him, as in....what happened is what was always meant to happen. He goes back in time, marries Peggy and they have 70 beautiful years together.

The old Cap is still frozen in the ice. The 2019 Cap is the one who goes back in time, so that old Cap is still frozen and will still be part of the future and be unfrozen when the Avengers come together.

Although there is one odd part....like if Steve always married Peggy, and they had kids, that would mean that Steve kind of hooks up with his....great niece? A bit screwy, but I can forget that happened. Ha ha. I was really hoping that there would be an alternate universe or something where Steve got to be with Peggy. So whatever the case, I’m happy with that, even if the logistics are kind of wonky.

As for the hammer, oh he definitely moved the hammer before. But I always kind of had a feeling that Steve kind of faked it. He tried to look like he couldn’t lift it, and maybe he kind of screwed up a bit when he nudged it and Thor saw, but maybe he did t want to bruise Thor’s ego by showing he could lift it. But man, the moment Thor was nearly killed, I knew it was coming....and then it happened and my theatre exploded in applause and screams and cheers. You could be right too, that maybe all his other experiences made him worthy. But I think he was worthy before too.

As for Sam, oh don’t get me wrong I’m fine with him being chosen. I just always thought they were kind of foreshadowing Bucky being the next Cap. After all, Bucky has used the shield multiple times in the movies. I can’t remember Sam ever handling it.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Just to finish off what I was saying, before I got cut off by the reply cap. I know in the comics Sam also becomes Captain America. So does Bucky though. But I know with Bucky it also becomes a bit problematic because he was brainwashed and used as a weapon for so long. He killed a lot of people, and people probably wouldn’t be so accepting of him being the new Cap when he was an assasin and also killed Tony’s parents. Bucky is just now starting to be his own man and get his life back together. He’s had so little time to just be...him. I mean it was only that little bit in Wakanda, where they deprogrammed him, and then he gets turned to dust. Bucky has had very little time to be like the old Bucky. But yeah he probably does want to retire too. And Bucky also seemed to agree with letting Sam take the shield. It’s just....I always thought it would be him next as Cap....then later on Sam.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Another thought as well. If Steve really was Peggy’s unseen husband all this time, meaning that Cap was always going to go back in time and marry Peggy, and they kept it a secret from frozen-Steve...for anyone who says that Cap just sat there and let Hydra infiltrate Shield, or did nothing as Bucky was brainwashed....the thing is, Steve knew how everything ended. He knew that Hydra would get taken down. He knew that Bucky would come out of it alive and whole again. He had already experienced the future, so as hard as it was for him not to intervene, he knew it would all work out. He also knew if he did step in and change things, the future would change, and there might be a different outcome if he did. So instead, he let everything lay out like it was supposed to, as he experienced them and read about to catch up on his 70 year sleep, knowing that in the end they win, they beat Thanos, they stop hydra, Bucky gets deprogrammed and is able to have a life, etc.

Just a thought.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

Not necessarily, that would only be true under the assumption that the present condition is the only condition that can defeat Thanos and reverse (or prevent) the flick.

If Cap lives after the 1940s with his knowledge, there are a lot of things that he can do that would prevent the flick or at least prepare for it. He could have taken the tesseract from Stark and hide it, he could go to Kamar-Taj and consult with the ancient one, or many other things that he could do that would affect the future but in a good way.

But even if we accept that the present timeline is the best one and Cap need to preserve it to defeat Thanos, would he? Would he let all those terrible things happened, not only to all the innocent but also to those he care very much? Would he sacrifice the few to save the many? Or let's look it like this, would Captain America let the USA drop the atomic bombs on Japan?

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

But remember what Doctor Strange said. Out of the millions of outcomes he saw, there was only one in which they win. Only one set of circumstances where everything lead to that moment, that they would win. There is only one in which Thanos was defeated.

Yes, Steve could have changed a lot of stuff in the past, but changing anything would have led to a different future. Like the butterfly effect. If he was always meant to go back and be with Peggy, then that was his future. But if he took the knowledge he had and then changed stuff so that Bucky was saved, Tony’s parents didn’t die, Hydra was shut down from the start, etc....that all would have led to a different outcome one in which Thanos would have won.

The fact that Steve showed up in the same spot, in the same timeline that we saw, that Bucky, Sam and Bruce were waiting for him, there is only one way in which he would have been in their timeline, and that’s if he was always meant to go back in time and be with Peggy. Otherwise, he would have created an alternate reality...an alternate timeline in which he and Peggy get married, and the other is where Peggy and him didn’t get together and she married someone else and died and so on. For Steve to be in their timeline, it shows that was his future. So yes, we have to believe that for in order for that future to happen, Steve had to let everything in the past happen, even all the bad stuff, because he knew it would turn out okay in the end. He saved trillions of all living things in the universe by not messing with the Earthly past.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

Doctor Strange's prediction only accounts on the moment at that time, moving forward from that time there is only one possible outcome where they beat Thanos and save the earth. It doesn't mean that changing the past would mean that Thanos means, it could also mean that changing the past might open other possibilities where Thanos is defeated.

there is only one way in which he would have been in their timeline, and that’s if he was always meant to go back in time and be with Peggy

That's not how it works according to both Tonny and Bruce. You can't change the past, the moment you step to the past you would've already been in a different timeline.

If your assumption that his going back in time to be with Peggy is what the original timeline is meant to be (so there is only one timeline, and Steve were Peggy's husband all along) why wouldn't he change the past? Why would it be okay to go back and marry her, but not do other stuff? Why would that one particular thing is the only thing permissible that wouldn't affect the desired future?

Although let me put it here that the premise that Cap and Peggy have always been together and Cap's jump to the past is the fate that is meant to be is so fucking adorable and I love that.

Steve had to let everything in the past happen, even all the bad stuff, because he knew it would turn out okay in the end

I don't think he will, this is against his character. Don't forget that his unwillingness to step back even a bit is the whole reason that starts the Civil War.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Okay so if you say that them going to the past already puts them in different timelines, then that would mean everything they did in the movie created multiple timelines either way, because they all went to 4 different timelines, and then Steve went back which would have created even more multiple timelines because he went back and returned the stones. But it didn’t. Otherwise a whole lot of weird shit would have gone down with all these multiple timelines.

And again, as I said, Steve didn’t change the past because he couldn’t. Because if he did, then the future would have changed. Think about it. If Steve stopped hydra in the past, they wouldn’t have tortured Bucky. If Bucky wasn’t tortured and made into an assasin, he would t have killed Tony’s parents. If he didn’t kill the Starks, then Tony’s future might have gone in a different direction. If Tony never became the tech genius and billionaire that he was, he never would have become Iron Man. His father would still be running the company. Stark Industries might not have become the weapons manufacturers they were in the first movie. That would mean Tony never would have been in that convoy that got blown up, that lead to him being taken hostage, that lead to him building the suit, etc. He only became Iron Man because of his circumstances in the first movie. If Iron Man never existed, The Avengers never would have existed. At least not the team that we know them as. If you delve deeper, you could probably find ways that it affects everyone in the movie. Take out Hydra early, and all the dominos would have fallen. It’s the butterfly effect.

So yeah, to have everything happen the way it does, for all of them to come together, for them to defeat Thanos, Steve had to let everything happen as he knew them to happen in his future.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

It's 4 different timelines that branch from the main timeline at different time. It's no more than 4 because the machine acts as a tether for these 4 timelines so they can jump back to these timelines to return the stones.

And all of this is moot point simply because Tony and Bruce already explained that it's a multiverse multiple timelines theory, so it can't be a single timeline theory, because it can't be both of them.

A single timeline would mean predestination, everything would happen eventually as if it is destined to be, fated, even if an entity comes from the future with intent to change it, it would end up that their intervention would only help that future to become reality, and it would turn out that it wouldn't have happened if there is no intervention.

Multiple timelines, like in this movie, would have events happened that change the past and affect the future in that timeline only.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Also, I don’t think it’s against his character at all. Steve understood needing to make sacrifices, he understood that to save millions that others had to die. He didn’t like it but he understood it.

And Civil War didn’t happen because Steve was unwilling to step back. It happened because Steve knew that this council would be ineffective. Look at Avengers 1 for instance, the council wanted to blow up New York and drop a nuke on it instead of let the Avengers do what they do and save millions. That was a crap decision. As he said in Civil War, this council would tell them where and when they could help people, and when to stand down. Steve didn’t like that scenario, not because he wasn’t a team player but because he knows that humans have fault. He saw how Hydra infiltrated Shield, how they were all manipulated. And he didn’t like some higher up council (who could be manipulated) telling them what they could and couldn’t do. Where they could go, who they can help. Sure they needed accountability, but Tony was wrong and went about it wrong, and even he understood that in the end.

But back to Steve going back to the past. As I said, it was his fate, he was always meant to go back. As they’ve said since the beginning, Steve was a man out of time, he didn’t belong in 2019. He belonged back in 1945, with Peggy. He was always meant to go back and be with her. Maybe Bucky will go back too...in another movie. But Steve seeing his picture on Peggy’s desk, I think that clicked something for him. Maybe then he realized he was always her husband, he just didn’t know it. As I said before, maybe Peggy and that Steve kept it from him...kept it a secret, knowing that he would soon realize what he was meant to do.

As with any movie though, there has to be some suspension of disbelief. If you pick apart and try and disprove what they did, and say how they were wrong and created multiple timelines and this and that....well...I’d rather believe that it was their fate.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

Would Steve Rogers agree with dropping atomic bombs on Japan?

And we are discussing and trying to pick apart theories and characteristics of this movie because we love and enjoy the movie, we want to know more about it, so I think it's okay to have this kind of discussion.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

As I said, in order for Steve to stay in his timeline, then yes he would have to let a whole lot of bad shit happen. Knowing that in the end, the universe gets saved because they beat Thanos. If Thanos won, everyone would die. And not just on Earth....everywhere else. The trillions of life beyond Earth would cease.

Have you not heard of the butterfly effect? Change one thing and everything else changes. Maybe when Steve went back to return the stones, he saw another picture on Peggy’s desk showing an older Steve with her, that way knowing he was meant to go back and be with her. Or maybe 1970’s Steve met up with 2019 Steve, knowing where and when he’d be there because he did all that stuff, and told Steve he and Peggy end up together and they kept it a secret. The fact that Steve remained in the same timeline, shows that he didn’t change the past. He couldn’t. Otherwise the future would have changed from his meddling in the past, and it would have created a bunch of different timelines. It didn’t. There were 2 Steve’s all along. The frozen Steve, that would be unfrozen for Avengers, and the one that went back in time to be with Peggy. That was Steve’s fate. So yes, Steve sat back and let bad shit happen, because he had to. He hated it for sure, but he had to let that happen. Otherwise he would change the future and things would be a hell of a lot different.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Oh and yes discussing scenarios and things are fine. But sometimes (most times) people just take it way too far and they can’t accept what the studio and the directors and everyone else is saying. They can’t enjoy what they see because they want to put logic into everything. Sometimes you can’t apply real life logic to movies and stuff like that. There has to be some suspension of disbelief. Otherwise, what’s the point in even watching movies like this, or any other movies dealing with weird shit? I mean if you watch a zombie movie, you have to let yourself kind of go with it, because if you put science into everything and apply logic and say that this or that couldn’t happen....well then why even watch a zombie movie? Some logic and science and stuff is okay, but other times it’s just like....just enjoy the movie and believe what the filmmakers are telling you.

[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

Cap's ending was too vague to destroy anything. We know Cap had the ability to return whenever he wanted. Maybe he returned as an old guy. He had a loooong time to come up with a way to get back. Most likely he waited for Peggy to pass away and then went back to his original timeline to hand Falcon the shield.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

He didn't return using the machine though, because we would have seen him crossing over through the machine.

[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

If he wanted to return the normal way then yeah. But I wouldn't assume that is the one and only way to return to this timeline.

Perhaps they wrote it so that Cap changed Peggy's life in this timeline (which is impossible, and a plot hole). Since it was done so vaguely they can easily correct it just by saying Cap found a way to get back to the original timeline.

[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

I guess no matter which one is it, it would still become a glaring plot hole. At this point, whatever means he used to come back would just be a Deux Ex Machina.

Still a great movie though, and I still enjoy Cap's ending.

[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

All they have to do is say Cap waited until Peggy's death and then he decided to return a little bit earlier before the original Cap left. Plot hole removed.

[–] [email protected] (1687) 5 years ago

I hope we get some Cap films in the 40s.

[–] [email protected] (1687) 5 years ago

If you're not worthy, you can't even move the hammer even a little bit. I also think he was faking.

[–] [email protected] (147) 5 years ago

What happened to Vision? Did he die before the first snap? I didn't see him. Also, what happened to Gamora after Tony's snap?

[–] AP (5259) 5 years ago

Vision was killed outside the snap. No idea where Gamora went.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Gamora came back but from a time before she was in love with Quill.

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

I also think that because Vision was essentially the mind stone, either way he couldn’t be brought back. Also, Bruce said he tried to bring back Black Widow, but he couldn’t. So I think it shows that anyone who died before the snap, is really gone. Which means half the Asgardians, Loki, Vision, etc. are really dead. Although with Loki, since he got his hands on the Tessaract again in 2012 and vanished who knows....he could show up again somehow.

As for Gamora, depending on what Tony wished for, Gamora could either have died like Thanos and his minions (meaning that she truly is gone), or she could have gone back to her time...like go back to 2014. I guess it depends on how specific Tony was in his wish. But I’m sure we’ll find out what happens to Gamora in the next Guardians movie, since Peter is on a mission to find her.

[–] alienzen (1929) 5 years ago

My feeling is that Sam will take the mantle for a while, but decide he is not the right person, and pass it on to Bucky.

Let’s talk about what happens... *SPOILERS*

Let’s talk about what happens... SPOILERS