MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Rose could have saved many lives, but ch...

Rose could have saved many lives, but chose not to

posted 6 years ago by Frogarama (12942)
37 replies | jump to latest

A Forbes article pointed out something I hadn't thought of, but should have been obvious:

The First Order has a tracker on just one ship, so they can only follow the fleet with that one ship. So why doesn't Leia order all the secondary ships in her fleet to jump to hyperspace and safety, leaving just the flagship in the First Order's sights?

The problem here is that Leia and Holdo don't know any details about the tracker. Only Rose does, although it's odd because Rose calls the tracker "new tech" and yet she seems to immediately know exactly how the First Order would use the new tech. There's no reason why, but she is definitely an exposition character.

After Rose "figured out" how the tracker is used, she should have run to her commanding officers and told them. That would have allowed a decision to be made to split up the fleet, sending all but Leia's ship in completely different directions, thereby saving all the other ships that eventually got destroyed. There really is too much "let's not share this critical information with the other Resistance peers on this ship" in Last Jedi. The Resistance is nearly wiped out due to an intentional lack of communication.

It's even worse when you consider how many variables Rose and Finn's "plan" hinged on. For one, it's necessary that the code-breaker be at the casino, gambling. Even if someone spends every waking hour gambling, out of an Earthly 24 hour day then you still need to set aside 8 hours for things like eating, going back to the hotel room, sleeping, and coming back. That example gives a 33% chance that the person won't be in the casino.

The plan also hinges on the gambler wearing his little flower brooch that Maz told them about, and who knows how long it's been since Maz last saw the guy. Does he truly wear it every day? What if he puts it down in a bet as a good luck charm and loses it to someone else since Maz last saw him? What if had gotten stolen?

Also, did anyone else think the code-breaker in the casino looked way too much like Poe? The two actors are extremely similar in appearance.

[–] Ace_Spade (9433) 6 years ago

More importantly: if Finn and Rose can get into an escape pod and fly it into hyperspace without being followed, why not just do that with, y'know, *everybody* on the ships?

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Yeah I don't think Rian Johnson really thought through his entire plot whatsoever.

Speaking of what you mentioned, how hilarious would it be if everyone did slip away a few at a time, until no one was left... Then the First Order catches up to the last ship and decides to take the ship and board.... They get inside, and no one is there. They had been following an empty cruiser.

Hux's red face would do great for a scene like that.

[–] Ace_Spade (9433) 6 years ago

And would have been a much better plan and plot than we got.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

The missed opportunities just continue to stack up.

[–] ProgSinister (188) 6 years ago

This makes me wonder how Holdo ever made it to Admiral with absolutely no leadership or strategy skills whatsoever.

[–] PresidentAckbar (1289) 6 years ago

Purple hair trumps leadership and training.

[–] ProgSinister (188) 6 years ago

Or huge nostrils.

[–] Eli (63) 6 years ago

There are literally hundreds of glaring plot holes. To find one more is not that surprising. Someone should create a wiki or some sort of central clearinghouse of all the plot holes in TLJ.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

True, but I thought this one was interesting because Rose is the one who said "We win by saving what we love." Plus, Poe had just gotten her sister killed when he disobeyed orders, and she was going to take Finn to the brig, but instead decided to do a secret mission with them and withhold valuable information from her commanding officer.

[–] FFNogoodnik (774) 6 years ago

I only saw it once on opening night so my memory might be off but did Poe get her sister killed or Leia/Holdo get her killed by sending in the bombers after Poe disobeyed orders. Leia and Holdo could have said "Poe is making a mistake and we are not going to add to that mistake by sending in bombers".

If I recall, when Poe disobeyed orders Leia/Holdo made the call to send in the bombers there bye making it their fault all of those people died and not Poe. THEY are the leaders, they make the decisions and the fallout of those actions is their responsibility. I hated how Holdo (IIRC) blamed Poe for all of those deaths.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

I don't recall, but I got the impression, and saw it repeated in a youtube breakdown of the movie, that Poe's refusal to stand down was his alone, and that the bombers just kind of did their own thing following his lead.

Plus, Poe was directly blamed by Leia afterward. I saw people wonder why the bombers weren't following any orders to stand down.

[–] ProgSinister (188) 6 years ago

I don't blame Poe for getting Rose's sister killed since she directly disobeyed an order from higher command to retreat. Then there's the more serious problem of the bombers being so slow that they can't outrun the explosion of whatever it is they just bombed, essentially making every bombing run a suicide mission.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Their slow speed is problematic. How did they even get there? Its literally like they appeared out of nowhere. I remember thinking that the instant they were shown.

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

I don't think this is a problem at all if you think a little about what really happened. Suicide Missions? Nope... You don't really know the situation without a debriefing from the action and a good analysis, however, we can assume (and don't tell me this was not in the movie, because tech specs and attack plans are never detailed in movies):

1- The bombers need a slow speed and specific position (altitude or Y vector) to drop these kind of bombs. They probably drop the bombs and then accelerate to avoid problems with the explosions. But think, Rose's sister was the pilot, not the gunner. No one was piloting the ship when she dropped the bombs. How can they escape or try to?

2- Position. By the time the bombs were dropped they probably weren't in the best position to drop them. No ones was piloting the ship and making adjustments. They seemed to be too near the First Order Cruise, but the girl has no other choice but to drop them. She was going to die anyway. She did what had to be done.

Yes, these bombers were too slow to drop bombs, but nothing suggest they have to get caught in any explosion after dropping. This was a special situation where the bomber ship had no pilot and the drop was delayed several minutes by all the troubles they had inside the ship.

[–] ProgSinister (188) 6 years ago

Rose is the one who said "We win by saving what we love."

It just occurred to me that her sister did the precise opposite at the beginning of the movie, sacrificing herself at the front of the move. And of course we know Rose prevents Finn from doing exactly the same at the end of the movie.

[–] Droideka (3) 6 years ago

That, was Leia's plan all along. I swear sometimes I think people didn't watch the same movie I did...

[–] ProgSinister (188) 6 years ago

Most of the ships in the fleet have hyperspace ability - hell, even the single-seater X-wings. the fleet could have easily scattered across the galaxy and rendez-vous later at some location. The tracker can't possibly follow all of them simultaneously. Someone (presumably the flagship) will draw the sort straw and be tracked.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Yep, then just leave the flagship completely empty but cruising forward on autopilot. A great way to trick the First Order.

[–] Droideka (3) 6 years ago

That was the plan! Just not hyperspace, going to Crait. The basis is the same. It's what they did!

[–] Xenopharb (617) 6 years ago

As I watched the film, I could not believe how idiotic the plot was. The more information we received, the worse it got.

Disney is wrecking Star Wars like they wrecked John Carter of Mars.

[–] century_hades (67) 6 years ago

That's an interesting article, and it makes sense. It points out a lot of plot holes. I think they're rushing these films out too fast, and it's causing the quality to suffer because of it. They should have spaced them three years apart.

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

Rose? Are you sure? Have you really seen the movie?

After Rose "figured out" how the tracker is used, she should have run to her commanding officers and told them.

She did... Rose being a nobody, her commanding officer was probably a sergeant or a lieutenant. She probably wouldn't have been listened by anyone higher on rank But, thanks to Finn she was able to get to a commander, yes Commander Poe Dameron. It was Poe's idea to withhold the information from the higher command and he authorized the side mission.

Do you really believe that a private or a corporal from any army (Rebels, Resistance, whatever you call them...) is allowed to talk to an admiral or general or be near them, moreover in a dire situation as they were?

Like the movie or not, I think most of the complains for this movie are just a bunch of crybabies' tantrum without any real imagination.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Since Rose isn't a pilot, I doubt Poe is her direct commanding officer.

Also, your notion that she isn't "allowed" to talk to generals or admirals and must keep her distance... That's just crazy.

Leia is not some delicate flower that must be protected from the grunts. This is not the Titanic where "steerage" people are looked down upon (though it did kind of become the Titanic, especially if you consider a Star Destroyer to be equivalent to an iceberg!)

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

Since Rose isn't a pilot, I doubt Poe is her direct commanding officer.

Also, your notion that she isn't "allowed" to talk to generals or admirals and must keep her distance... That's just crazy.

Leia is not some delicate flower that must be protected from the grunts. This is not the Titanic where "steerage" people are looked down upon (though it did kind of become the Titanic, especially if you consider a Star Destroyer to be equivalent to an iceberg!)

With all due respect, I urge you to read and comprehend what you read before responding. My post explain clearly that it was thanks to Finn they were able to talk to a high officer like Poe. Do I explain better? They did it because Poe is Finn's best pal. If not for this, she should have gone to a very lower rank.

Also, if you don't know how the Military and Rank work, you should not be commenting on it as if you know it.

[–] Ace_Spade (9433) 6 years ago

Even so, if she knows how to stop the entire enemy strategy, she should tell her commanding officer who should bump it up the chain. You're right: the military have systems to make sure that privates aren't complaining to generals. But they also have ways to get information to generals from privates if that information is important.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

There are four situations in the movie where the brig would be used normally, so this isn't a strict military organization

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

What part you don't understand? She did give the information to a commanding officer. Did you see the movie? In this case she was able to give the information to a higher ranking officer than she could have done in a normal situation thanks to Finn being friend of Poe. She told it to a commanding officer, just not "her" commanding officer but one with higher rank and one with better access to the High Command.

It was the officer who did not relay the information to the Higher chain of command. It was Poe who decided not to give the information. Rose did her job. The officer took the decision.

[–] Ace_Spade (9433) 6 years ago

They then decide to use military vehicles to go AWOL on a secret mission that only they know about without any orders from superior officers.

None of them did their jobs.

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

Which has nothing to do with this wrong thread.

None of them did their jobs.

Yes and no. Finn is not part of the Resistance, so he had no jobs to comply. Remember, he was doing this all for Rey. Rose was following orders from a High Commander Officer and a War Hero, so she did her job. Poe, in the other hand, was not following orders from his superiors and withheld this information from Rose and Finn. So, he definitely wasn't doing his job, even if he was correct about not trusting Holdo (which he wasn't).

[–] Ace_Spade (9433) 6 years ago

You're right: the thread is about how Rose could have used her knowledge better and saved lives, which is true regardless of the chain of command.

I just disagree that Rose was doing her job properly. It doesn't seem like Poe should be giving her orders. He was "air force", or whatever it is in space, and she was maintenance. Different sections of the whole military, so she shouldn't be taking orders from Poe and should have known the mission was wonky (didn't they have lines to that effect...?) Of course, I can't really comment with expertise on the hierarchy and structure of a fictional military, but it seems like she shouldn't be taking orders from Poe...

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

People are protective of forced diversity in characters and movies - her entire character insertion made zero sense, the plotlines they followed were pointless and only existed as filler to appeal to chinese money.

She is the worst SW character ever conceived and is the new PORKINS - when judging by appearance alone.

[–] fishpan (544) 6 years ago

She kind of did. She and Finn went to Poe.

She did inform someone of higher rank of the situation, and he decided that Holdo wouldn't go for the plan so they wouldn't tell her.

Rose should have gone over Poe's head yes, but she did tell an officer what about the tracker. She kind of honoured the chain of command.

Holdo not being told about the tracker isn't simply part of Rose and Finn's storyline but Poe's learning about how not act with brashly. Because you are right the chances of the hacker being at the casino is a long shot at best.

If anything considering DJ's explanation of how the arms dealers sell to both sides, if Poe had shared the information with Holdo there is a chance she would have known someone at the casino who could corroborate where the hacker was and could have contacted him before Rose and Finn got to Canto Bright.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

I think she and Finn went to Poe mostly because Finn and Poe were buddies, though. Since she's not a pilot, I don't think Poe would qualify as a commanding officer to her.

Plus, she was taking Finn to the brig as a deserter. Suddenly going in league with him was just weird.

It's a pretty minor part of an overall messy plot, though.

[–] fishpan (544) 6 years ago

The going into league with him I could take, she was in awe of him before she realised what he was doing then he took her to Poe and Leia? That would have probably been enough to make her want to work with him, hence why she hid the fact he was running away.

As for her only telling Poe, I can understand it as he is an officer and a hero of the resistance and she knew he was in with the high command. His demotion and interaction with Holdo is what Rose didn't know. Also if Leia was still up and about going to Poe would have been a sure route to get that information to the top as quickly as possible rather than trying to go through her superior who was probably and engineering tech who may have dismissed her due to her emotional distress regarding her sister considering she was crying when we first saw her.

So it can be argued that Rose and Finn were attempting to fast tracked the info about the tracker and also Poe wasn't the only one in that room C3PO is there too and an unconscious Leia. Now Leia can't do anything but C3PO is part of that scene and I know he is a droid but he Leia's droid, has knowledge of the high command and it would be common knowledge that he was in almost every meeting and he is the one that states Holdo would say no, he doesn't get a chance to say anything else, but he is the one that first states it and Poe then goes off on a need to know plan.

To me it is just another aside to Poe's story with regards to his brash actions and how they inspired others to act brashly as he was leading them. Poe gives Finn and Rose the go ahead and they take it as Poe is well...Poe.

[–] ranmast (620) 6 years ago

The problem here is Finn is not a deserter. He is not part of the resistance. She could have accused him of trying to rob some Resistance equipment but that's only an intent. After what he did for them in TFA, I expect them not to do anything but tell him he could not leave or take any vehicle until they were out of danger. What rights had the Resistance to keep him on board, he was hurt helping them (without been a member) and they own him for his help. The problem is, due to the situation, they couldn't help him to leave and he wanted to leave immediately.

Froga here would never acknowledge this, but Rose going in league with Finn is nothing weird if you understand that after he declared his intentions to save his friend, Rose who just lost her sister could relate with that. And she probably believed they had a chance to save everybody.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Did you miss the part how she called finn selfish for trying to go help his 'friend'?

Somehow I don't think she was relating to his motivations ...

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I shouldn't over-analyse, Frogarama. This is just a classic case of sacrificing plot and common sense in favour of pushing a personal agenda down our throats. They'll make up any crap to justify it, too.