What about Frank? SPOILERS
I know he was blown to bits, but I'm really hoping he comes back like Trudy. I really liked his character.
shareFrank is history.
shareNot really, I just saw him in S3 E4 ... when did he get blown to bits. I was surprised to see him all burned up, so I must have missed or forgotten something ........ what?
shareRemember when he bombed Kempeitai headquarters in season 2? Well apparently he didn't die, although one half of his face was horribly burned in the explosion.
shareEgads ... I had forgotten about that.
shareIt's been a while since season 2. December 2016, almost two full years. I hope we don't have to wait that long for season 4!
shareIf I remember correctly the book ended with a scene of Tagomi being transported to the alternate reality, so I thought there was a good chance that was the end of the series too. Considering that almost every show I like ends up getting cancelled I more or less put TMITHC to bed. Season 3 is adding a lot of depth that frankly the book did not explore. Whether that is good or bad to me depends on the rest of this season.
I do have a thought though on the structure of this show, and others. That is last night I was watch the scene where John Smith was to be taken down by Hoover and George Lincoln Rockwell and the motivations of the show to make Smith seem sympathetic. It seems like Hollywood has discovered that you can manipulate an audience to go from hate to love and back and again, and back again if you twist the story too much. It give an idea about what propaganda to do in the hands of an expert with enough backing. I don't know, that just bothers me.
Even the worst of people started off good. When they were young, when they were children, only the true psychopaths among them would've conceived of the things they're doing now. The child they once were would be appalled.
What we see with Smith is a complex man, especially since those films have gotten him to thinking about how his life might've turned out had things happened differently. When the US lost the war he started making accommodations. Rationalizing every step of the way. I thought that was an intriguing part of season 3 actually. Those moments where he seems to be looking around wondering How did I get here? How did I become the bad guy? And then there are other times when he shows no doubt or hesitation. Killing in cold blood, feeling no guilt over it. I think the message is that he's not an inherently evil man. That was the sum of his choices.
> I think the message is that he's not an inherently evil man. That was the sum of his choices.
For a world-wide authority on quantum physics that is an extremely one-dimensional opinion.
Hey, I never claimed to be a world renowned expert on anything.
This does seem to be the message of Smith's exposure to the films and to parallel worlds though, doesn't it? He's starting to examine his life and ponder the fact that he could've chosen differently. The reel that shows his son alive and well, in a world where America never fell to the Nazis, seems to have especially gotten under his skin. The John Smith in that film was more like the guy he used to be himself. A guy who would no doubt call him a traitor. Hard not to look at the world through fresh eyes after watching that.
That was my sarcastic way of agreeing with you. Failed to get that before you replied too. I am not disagreeing with you on your point about Smith, I just am not interested in discussing it any more with someone who is clueless to nuance, except as how it might relate to QP.
Thanks for the discussion.
I share your frustration on the ridiculous period of time since season 2. The binge watching nature of the Netflix release format has the unfortunate downside of making retention of previous seasons far more challenging, especially after extended downtime. I don't like feeling like I have to re-watch past season episodes just to get up to speed to start a new season, so I inevitably end up enduring a fog of amnesia when pre-show recaps from past season episodes don't catalyze my memory like they're supposed to. Fortunately, I'm through EP8 and most of the fog has lifted.
Yeah I was surprised to see Frank had survived his foray as a suicide bomber and put on a redemption arc this season. But having him return a disfigured cripple who would stick out like a sore thumb anywhere he went and so could only be a liability to the resistance (even while his art inspired the masses) I figured he didn't have long for this world. I make the same assumption for Theon in GoT, he's well past his expiration date after he serves his redemption arc. But with regards to Smith, I find Sewell's fascinating portrayal the main draw left at this point. Sadly, I don't find Alexa Davalos to be a strong enough lead to carry the show's protagonist role and her portrayal of Juliana Crane leaves me bored to tears most of the time. If it wasn't for Sewell's compellingly nuanced John Smith I probably would have bailed on it by now.
They can't seem to decide whether Juliana is weak or strong. She's trying to whip up the spirit of resistance, and has her occasional bouts of eloquence and charisma, but a lot of the time she's outshone by other characters. Frank, Tagomi, Kido, John and Helen Smith, even Ed McCarthy, were more compelling this season than Juliana Crain.
I don't think this is Alexa Davalos' fault. The scriptwriters need to develop her story. Something simple like having her develop a taste for striking back violently after killing Joe (taking a walk on the dark side so to speak) would be interesting. People in that world who spent so many years being crushed under a brutal system and feeling helpless would be walking around with a lot of pent up rage. As some sort of interdimensional superhero we need to believe she's special, but so far she's remained timid and in the background far too much.
It'll be interesting to find out where she went (alternate Trudy's world maybe?). And with the new revelation about who can travel where, what will the Nazis do with their machine? It's hard to see how they could mount an invasion. Of course, they could always colonize empty worlds - wilderness Earths where the human race never evolved. They'd have a 100% success rate sending people through to places like that. Just a random idea.
What's going to happen with Smith next season do you think? Will he have a crisis of conscience, or become even more ruthless? What if Himmler doesn't make it - alone, or with help? Think the Reich is ready for an American born Führer? And when he tracks down the wife and kids (which I'm sure he will) what happens then?
Obviously they don't have even a rough release date yet for season 4. I'm hoping it's more like one year than two though. Not sure why it took them so long.
Yeah you might be right about Davalos, I'm probably being too hard on her when the fault really lies on the lack of development of her character.
I'm a little confused on the logic the show is using for the parallel worlds travelers paradigm. So if it's not possible for a character to occupy parallel worlds in which an alternate version of himself is alive, then what are they hoping to achieve? They want to conquer worlds in which their alternate selves have already died?
The Nazis didn't know this restriction existed until The Man in the High Castle (or should we start calling him Abe?) told them about it. They assumed the deaths in the chamber were due to gravitational distortions or something similar, and as they refined the machine those issues could be resolved.
But like Juliana said to Smith it was kind of a harebrained scheme to begin with. Even if they could send anyone or anything that would fit inside the device, unless they discovered a world full of pacifists they'd be sending troops through a bottleneck to fight against an entire planet. Forces on the other side would rapidly surround and contain their incursion. And God help them if they intruded into a world with a bigger, significantly more advanced military. In that situation you'd better hope you can shut down the portal and the other guys don't have the ability to reopen it from their end!
True, because the entire Nazi scheme is to conquer alternative worlds oblivious to possible realities where they'd face superior numbers or technology spelling their imminent destruction really is hairbrained. I hesitate to use the world 'realism' in a sci-fi narrative with alternate worlds, but could the blindness of megalomania have resulted in such poorly thought out conquests of realms completely unknown?
I remain dubious but I suppose it's possible. The turning point of WW2 was Hitler's hairbrained idea to engage the war on two fronts and attack their hitherto ally in the Soviet Union. Seeing how in this reality the Nazis won that war, perhaps that decision paid off and added to their mystique of Nazi invulnerability. The Reich had earned that rep up until its fateful decision to turn its guns eastward.
But the Nazis in this world hadn't even annihilated Japan to rule the world, yet they're setting their sights on an entirely different world that they'd have no way of assessing whether they can even defeat? I have a hard time buying it.
I suppose you could send scouts first. An advance team to recon new worlds and see if they're good candidates for conquest (i.e. inferior capabilities). They might even take an infiltration and subversion approach on worlds that seem ripe for the Nazi ideology to take hold among the people. There are smart ways of going about it. Although Himmler - at least the way he's portrayed on this show - seems every bit as power hungry and grandiose as Hitler was. Who knows how well he's thinking things through?
shareYeah well he (Himmler) sure appeared oblivious at the end when he completely underestimated public reaction to the decimation of the Statue of Liberty. He was waltzing down the streets of New York like a man who'd never faced any serious adversity from the masses of any adversarial vassal state. So maybe it is conceivable. And yes, you're quite right that we really don't know what their plans are as of yet on how they'd go about conquests of alternative worlds.
But as far as the idea of populating unpopulated worlds to build a new Aryan society, I'm not sure that's quite what they're after. The Nazi regime seemed to be so much more about dominance and subjugation of the rest of the world. The ability for the regime to survive and maintain its legitimacy appeared to be built on demonizing the "other" and ensuring the focus remained outward so as to avoid any introspection into its own corruption. I doubt it could survive left to its own devices in a pristine world devoid of other tribes to demonize and dominate. If Himmler has any clue he'd also understand this and avoid that possibility at all costs. But who knows, maybe he's deluded enough actually believe in the Shangri-la of an Aryan utopia.
Actually, those Hitler youth in the streets were waving the flag of the American Reich (the swastika and stripes). They weren't demonstrating against him. Himmler instructed the gestapo not to crack down, and to let the New York Public Library burn. He was just starting to reminisce about kristallnacht and his own younger days when a bullet went through his chest. As it turns out loud hooligans in the street make excellent cover for snipers. Oops! :)
It'll be interesting to see what happens when John Smith reports what he's been told about the machine's limitations. Will they cancel the project or just modify whatever plans they had? I get the feeling Smith still wants to meet (and possibly abduct) one of his son's alternates. How he thinks that's going to work out I don't know. Or maybe he intends to locate a world where his son is the only surviving member of the family and flee the Reich with his wife and two daughters, through the portal. Something along those lines. You never really know what's going through that man's head.
I had to rewatch that bit to see what I missed, you're right about the radio announcement reporting on the Nazi youth protesting. I guess the scene appeared ambiguous because it looked like they could have been hostile protesters seeing how the military rushed out with weapons drawn pointed at the protesters and even after Himmler was shot they continued chanting and cheering. Weird, but yeah it's hard to ignore that radio broadcast identifying them as American Reich youth.
Agree about Smith, but he's also poised to possibly seize control of the American Reich should Himmler die from his wounds. It's hard to imagine the Germans allowing an American to assume command of the entire Third Reich, but I could see him making a move on the American division in the leftover power vacuum upon Himmler's death in the inevitable battle of succession that fascist regimes always seem to inspire. He'd have strong motive to do so in order to lay down new rules that would salvage his hope to reunify with his family and save his daughter from extermination should she test positive.
He's already got the position as head of the American Reich. Under normal circumstances the establishment probably wouldn't let anyone but a native German become Führer. If there's enough infighting in Berlin though, and Smith figures out how to spin the whole expansion to new worlds thing into a manifest destiny for the Reich, he might be able to pull it off. Only a handful of people even know that program exists. Little details about the limitations of their technology don't need to spread beyond that tiny circle. I'm sure Mengele won't say a word if Smith promises him all the money he needs and a free hand to conduct his research however he wants.
Like you said, making a few changes to the eugenics policies would be another motivation (besides pure lust for power). If you want to keep people with genetic defects from reproducing you don't actually need to kill them. There are less extreme methods available. I still can't help thinking Smith has some sort of idea involving his son though. How could anyone who's lost a child, if they saw a way - however irrational or impractical - of bringing them back not at least be considering it? I guess we'll see.
What I meant by seizing control of the American Reich is doing so absent its subordination to the Third Reich HQ in Germany. Sort of like how Alexander the Great's generals divided up his territory between them after his death. It's not clear from the show who the German commanders would be vying for control should Himmler die. But there doesn't appear to be an obvious candidate Smith would willingly subordinate himself should that happen. With the parallel worlds machine being developed on American territory in the Poconos and the Germany controlled US regions serving as the frontier of its standoff with Japan, that already gives Smith major leverage with Berlin should the Germans want to maintain a unified Reich. If not Smith himself he should be able to parlay this advantage to deciding on who will be the next Fuhrer. But without a clear candidate emerging in the show of who that might be, if the writers are going that route I'm guessing they're setting up Smith to potentially be the next reformist minded Fuhrer with reactionary German factions trying to take him out.
The parallel worlds machine is the biggest wild card. Like you said, it's obvious Smith has some ploy in mind to try to get his son back. It's just not at all clear how feasible that idea is. Are there any special rules for travelers between worlds outside of that they can't exist in the worlds they jump to? Would that mean Smith would have to plan on jumping to a world in which he had died but his son had survived to kidnap him back to this world? It all sounds too far out and hairbrained to even speculate how he'd think that would work, or if he's just deluding himself that his other-world son would just be kosher with beaming him back to a fascist dominated reality.
There's plenty of Hitler's inner circle we haven't seen yet in this show. Hermann Göring, Adolf Eichmann, Rudolf Hess, and so forth. How many are still around we don't know. But assuming most of them are, any or all could have ambitions to succeed Himmler. A lot would depend on whether one man had a clear majority of support, or if there were deep divisions and vicious infighting between factions backing different candidates.
If one guy seems almost certain to win control, I believe Smith will throw in with the winning team and exploit the opportunity to ingratiate himself with the new Führer. However a temporary lack of clear leadership in Berlin would work to Smith's advantage if he hoped to fill the vacuum himself. The parallel world portal gives him something grandiose to present as the reason he should be running things.
Hitler had Goering executed after he had appointed himself acting chancellor while Hitler was convalescent it was revealed last season.
Hess we knew from his ill considered flight to Scotland during the war, was already losing his grip on reality. His actual influence in the Nazi hierarchy had waned considerably by 1941. So even assuming the Nazis won the war it's doubtful Hess would be in any position to seize the title of Fuhrer 20+ years later.
You're right that there were commanders in Hitler's inner circle that *should* be vying for the title should Himmler die, it's just that the show runners haven't given us any indication of who that might be ... which is why it's hard to see it happening. We haven't seen any of Adolf Eichmann even though if they planned for him to play a major part in the future we should've at least become familiarized with his character by now.
I forgot about Göring. But we didn't meet Himmler until late last season. Eichmann and the rest of the historical Nazi bigwigs could be anywhere. A few are probably dead, the rest are just serving in capacities that demand their presence elsewhere. Assuming Himmler dies - and we don't know for sure that he will - you'd expect everyone who's anyone in the Reich to be flying into Berlin from all over the world. For the state funeral first. Then the Game of Thrones.
shareYes, that would be very entertaining to watch should that come to pass.
I think there's two ways they could go with this, that being one of them. The other could be something along the lines of how Smith goes about undermining Himmler while he's down in order that he stay down. Who will take over as acting chancellor should Himmler be down for any significant period of time? That should clear up a lot about the present situation. It really appeared like Himmler was intent on making Smith his protege, would he be willing to appoint Smith acting chancellor now and will Smith use that opportunity to ultimately betray his patron?
While I'm normally a huge sci-fi and PKD fan, I was a bit disappointed this season because I felt the confusing and bizarre sci-fi aspects interfered more than I would have liked with the strengths of this show; which I believe are the exposition of this fascist dominated alternative history. Also felt they spent way too much time with the gay theme at the expense of character development; was that all Nicole Dormer good for this season? What a waste of a character.
I don't get the ruling other worlds idea at all. It seems it would take only the 2 seconds of common sense that the logistics alone would make a plan unrealistic. Now maybe to go forward and steal technology or resources to maintain superiority in their own world seems more realistic.
In the first season, I wondered if maybe Hitler was getting films from another world where they lost, and using them to course correct in his world. Of course this did not turn out to be the case in the show. Who know though, maybe it will turnout Hitler war a traveler.
Nobody's history, right? You can always bring another one in from another universe.
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