MovieChat Forums > The Holdovers (2023) Discussion > The Importance of Vietnam and the Draft ...

The Importance of Vietnam and the Draft to This Story


"On the surface," I suppose, "The Holdovers" is a human interest story with such familar characters as the cantankerous middle-aged teacher and the problem student with promise, and the wise female servant figure.

But deep within the nostalgic 1970 atmosphere of "The Holdovers" is a deadly serious undertow: the effect of the Vietnam War and the attendant draft on the characters.

We are fifty years gone from when President Nixon(!) ended the draft in 1973, but for those of us who grew up in the era when it was active, that draft was a scary thing that put a lot of pressure not only on young men, but on their mothers and their fathers. (Women were not drafted.)

Consider what the draft meant:

It meant that a mother and father could birth a baby boy, raise him to age 18 -- and have the government take him away and kill him. For draft-age young men, living past 18, 19, or 20 was NOT guranteed in the era of the draft. For parents, their babies could be taken away and killed, just like that.

Now there were possible other outcomes even if one served in Vietnam. Most of the soldiers survived and came back home. Many of the soldiers didn't worry about the draft, they ENLISTED because they wanted a military career and wanted to fight for their country.

But The Holdovers is about something different and more usual: you could escape the draft with a "college deferrment" -- go to college, miss the draft -- and so in the Vietnam years, guys who could go to college stayed OUT of Vietnam and guys who could NOT go to college WENT to Vietnam. (I'm oversimplifying, but those were the basics.)

And The Holdovers confronts this right up front: Angus, the young hero of the story, is deathly afraid of flunking college and being sent to military school, because the combination will leave him open to ...going to Vietnam.

Meanwhile, the son of Mary, the African-American cook, could NOT get into college, elected to go to Vietnam(I think he enlisted, I can't recall) and got killed at 18 or so. His mother plunged into despair.

This is not a "lightweight" story.

And this: for ALL young men in the Vietnam draft years BEFORE one had to confront whether or not college would be an escape..there was a "lottery" (every few months? I can't remember) in which families would gather round the TV to see if the son drew a high number than made him eligible for service, or a low number which did not. TOTALLY arbitraty -- this boy escapes Vietnam, this boy has to go (until the deferrments are sought -- medical included.)

Mary has lost a young son in Vietnam. Angus fears going to Vietnam. As for our third character -- Paul Giamatti's teacher -- he tells Angus that he did HIS duty in WWII (when there was a greater sense of duty to a more justifiable war) but I've already forgotten WHAT Giamatti did -- I don't think it was combat-related.

Which was another element of American military service from WWII on -- not ALL military jobs were combat jobs.

And yes: in WWII , there were all sorts of stories about teenage boys lying about their age to GET INTO the war(this included some movie actors) but...well, sometimes a generation wants to fight, and sometimes not. (Does it depend on the WAR? Or did families just start wanting to hang onto their boys and avoid their deaths?)

The Holdovers is set in 1970 and we see the characters watch "LIttle Big Man" on the big screen. But there was another 1970 movie that was more "on point" to Vietnam: Patton.

And while Patton is famous for George C. Scott's opening speech, the more harrowing scene -- for parents and sons alike -- was the scene where Scott's Patton slaps a young soldier for being in an infirmary tent over a nervous breakdown(he is crying) rather than the limb-removing incuries of the other soldiers in the tent.

It was a very uncomfortable scene(written by Francis Coppola) that crystallized the issue: is it cowardly to want to avoid combat and dying at 18?

The Holdovers touches on all of this directly or indirectly. There are many other great plot points in the story(the lonlieness of the characters, their hopes for love) but the Vietnam Draft element hangs over everything.

And Mary loses out from it. She loses her son. (Draft or not.)

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I've heard that's not exactly true, that most of the people who went to Vietnam got there because they volunteered to join the armed forces -- yes, people were still gung ho to do that in those days. Those who got drafted mostly got desk jobs stateside.

Only 25% of those who served in Vietnam were draftees, while the rest were volunteers.

https://www.quora.com/Did-everyone-who-was-drafted-during-the-Vietnam-War-go-to-Vietnam-or-were-some-able-to-stay-home-and-do-other-jobs

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I've heard that's not exactly true, that most of the people who went to Vietnam got there because they volunteered to join the armed forces --

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Well, I'll take that point, but i remember being there and a little underage for the draft -- but I also remember stories of young guys heading to Canada, or drinking tons of sugar water to throw off their blood test at the draft board. And college was one way out.

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yes, people were still gung ho to do that in those days.

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Sure, it was a remnant of the value of military service left over from WWII and Korean war vets. I would guess that some of the troubled Viet Nam vets who came back weren't draftees - -they were gung ho indeed, going in. In The Holdovers, the cook's son volunteered...and died.

And over the course of my life, I have known and worked with many Viet Nam veterans who simply "did it," came back, made lives. If you don't get killed or maimed, you can come out of war as part of your past life, and move forward.

And also: I went to a full house showing of the Viet Nam war film "Platoon" in 1986. A bunch of vets wearing jackets connotating their service watched the film, applauded - and then gathered in a circle and put their arms around each other with their heads down and just stood like that as the credits rolled. They were "functional" but obviously their shared Viet Nam service was part of their life.

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Those who got drafted mostly got desk jobs stateside.

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Really? Well, I guess it was still a lottery whether or not that's where you ended up or in Nam. One wonders why LBJ called up so many more troops to "get the job done" if it could be done at desks.

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Only 25% of those who served in Vietnam were draftees, while the rest were volunteers.

https://www.quora.com/Did-everyone-who-was-drafted-during-the-Vietnam-War-go-to-Vietnam-or-were-some-able-to-stay-home-and-do-other-jobs

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Interesting reading. Thanks.

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It's good that the people you know who came back were okay. A lot of the guys were really messed up by it. Some physically, some mentally, some both. A lot felt confused that whereas soldiers of earlier wars were feted and treated as heroes, the Vietnam vets were kind of forgotten as nobody wanted to think about that war at all.

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2.2 million were drafted between '64 and '73. I was 14 when the draft ended and am in the sliver of birth years that has never had to register for the draft. I have older cousins who avoided the war with their college deferments. One cousin who just couldn't hack staying in college drew something like 360 in the birthday lottery so he was safe.

If I recall (maybe incorrectly) people who enlisted had more of an opportunity to select where they served and what their function was than those who were drafted. People could enlist in the National Guard, too, and be relatively safe from being deployed. Sometimes you needed connections to do that because a lot of people wanted to do that to avoid being sent to Vietnam.

And I think Mary's son COULD get into college but they couldn't afford it. Part of her loss is that her son could have been the first person in their family to have attended college but she couldn't make it happen. This isn't explicitly said but Mary does say something like, "can you imagine, him going to college" in a way that sounds much more significant than staying out of the army.
Note by the end of the movie, Mary mentions that she is saving to send her sister's child to college, something she couldn't manage for her own son.

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So I guess you were born about 1961.

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A bit earlier

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And I think Mary's son COULD get into college but they couldn't afford it.

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Yes, I was unclear in my post saying "he couldn't get into college." Sounds like he had the grades but cost was the issue. Which leads me to wonder: weren't low cost community colleges available back then? Did you have to go to "university" to get the deferment? I don't know the answer to that.

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Part of her loss is that her son could have been the first person in their family to have attended college but she couldn't make it happen. This isn't explicitly said but Mary does say something like, "can you imagine, him going to college" in a way that sounds much more significant than staying out of the army.

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That is a poignant clarification. Getting him INTO college was more important to Mary than keeping him OUT of the draft...

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Note by the end of the movie, Mary mentions that she is saving to send her sister's child to college, something she couldn't manage for her own son.

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I had forgotten that. But I will be seeing The Holdovers again and again in the future, and I'm sure I'll catch more things I missed. It is too good a movie to give itself up(to me at least) on first viewing.

Hell, until I read a later review I didn't even realize what bottle Giamatti was drinking from at the end!

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It meant that a mother and father could birth a baby boy, raise him to age 18 -- and have the government take him away and kill him. For draft-age young men, living past 18, 19, or 20 was NOT guranteed in the era of the draft. For parents, their babies could be taken away and killed, just like that.

Now there were possible other outcomes even if one served in Vietnam. Most of the soldiers survived and came back home. Many of the soldiers didn't worry about the draft, they ENLISTED because they wanted a military career and wanted to fight for their country

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I return to elaborate on the first paragraph above(while honoring the second, about enlistees) by mentioning a very popular "live concert rock song" by the group Country Joe and the Fish, recorded at the famous Woodstock concert in the summer of 1969, and then playing all over the radio in late 1969 and 1970.

The song was called "I Feel Like I'm Fixin to Die Rag."

The main refrain went:

"And its one two, three..what are we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, next stop is Vietnam!

And the relevant longer passage is this one:

Come on mothers, throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
To send your boys off before its too late
And you can be the first ones on your block
...to have your boy come home in a box!

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"To have your boy come home in a box." This song got radio play, over and over and OVER, in 1969 and 1970 and contributed, I think, in its own way , to a demoralization of American families over Vietnam that still took a long three more years to end the draft in 1973, and two more to end the war in 1975.

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I think Community college could get you a deferment, not sure, but it's usually only for 2 years after which you'd still be eligible to be drafted.

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I think Community college could get you a deferment, not sure, but it's usually only for 2 years after which you'd still be eligible to be drafted.

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Thank you for that clarification!

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You think 25% is not a big number?

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A lot smaller than 75%.
Consider also that many who went to Vietnam did not get to the front, but served in relative safety well behind the lines or in the air.

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I'm not arguing that 25% is smaller than 75%.

But if 25% were drafted, it means half a million people were drafted.

Half a million is a huge amount of people, and we cannot discard them as a residual sample. Many people were put through this.

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The draft is a side story, mainly affecting Mary, but it's not what the movie is about. I turned eighteen during the Vietnam war and had to sweat out a couple of years wondering if my number would come up. I wasn't a college student, so I was definitely part of the at-risk cohort. Luck was on my side, though, and the long arm of the government never reached out to snatch me from my civilian life. It was a time of anxiety.

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The draft is a side story, mainly affecting Mary, but it's not what the movie is about.

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE HOLDOVERS:

i would respectfully disagree that the draft is a side story that mainly affects Mary. Surely, her character suffers the greatest loss from the War -- and her son enlisted, yes? -- and her moments of total sobbing devastation hurt and have earned the actress an Oscar nomination.

But the other two characters end up "affected by the draft," too. The young man's fear is that if he flunks out of the elite high school, his mother and stepfather will send him to "military school" and that is evidently a pipeline to the real military(one wonders how that would matter one way or the other if the draft is the issue -- I guess military school is not college?_..or a route TO college..

And so, at the end, the THIRD character(Giamatti) sacrifices his own job -- which was probably his LIFE -- to save the young man from getting kicked out of school and offered up to the draft.

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I turned eighteen during the Vietnam war and had to sweat out a couple of years wondering if my number would come up. I wasn't a college student, so I was definitely part of the at-risk cohort. Luck was on my side, though, and the long arm of the government never reached out to snatch me from my civilian life. It was a time of anxiety.

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A time of anxiety. You've sort of made my case there for "The Holdovers" carrying this anxiety as part of its overall theme. Those of us of a certain age remember the power that government had to take away autonomy over our own lives. While some young men CRAVED military service and were ready to go...a lot did not, and The Draft(something held in greater respect in WWII and -- hey I don't know this, WAS there a draft for Korea? -- The Draft hung over our lives with the possibility of ENDING our lives.

CONT

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Today's youth are about two -- three? -- generations removed from The Draft so the world of The Holdovers(1970 into 1971) may seem like a foreign land to them.

Could The Draft return? There's a lot of wars going on.


And this: we've moved from a certain respect for our Presidents (an actor playing FDR in the 40s could not be even shown on screen in Yankee Doodle Dandy, nor an actor playing JFK on The Lucy Show in the early 60s) to a rather constant insult culture about them - -Presidents are routinely dismissed and defiled and called buffoons, etc.

And yet these buffoons still lead a power structure with judges and police and bureaucracies that could easily impose The Draft again -- the COVID years and the January 6 prosecutions show just how much power government STILL has over lives when it wants to enforce it.

So...just how much in the past will The Draft prove to be?

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This post is a laser guided smart bomb. Three things I will add:
• the modern U.S. president / presidential candidate seems to have an equal willingness to publicly and personally insult voters
• the entire administrative system for quickly reimplementing the civilian draft exists and remains at the ready
• The DoD can employ the “stop-loss” system to involuntary extend service members’ active duty obligations despite the discharge date in their enlistment contracts. Stop-loss has repeatedly been used by the U.S. government since 9/11 to force people to stay in the military against their will in times of crisis. This is a backdoor conscription that has allowed the government to narrowly avoid reimposing the draft on civilians on several recent occasions

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• the modern U.S. president / presidential candidate seems to have an equal willingness to publicly and personally insult voters

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That point is extremely well taken and depressing as well. In America, we have "devolved down" to this, and the development is guided(to MAKE MONEY, I say) by cable news(opinion) shows, the internet, and talk shows devoted to calling one side or the other as monsters or idiots, take your pick. (The money is made via ratings and clicks as a consequence of "appealing to the base.") The Presidential candidates simply follow suit. No longer is an an election about "bringing everyone together"(not that it ever really WAS, but lip service was given), its about "destroying the other side and taking over."

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I’m going to start reading more of your posts because you’re really summarizing my evolving perceptions about modern America

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Oh, i don't want to disappoint you. Most of my posts aren't that way. You may not care for them.

I spend far more time NOT talking about those other things. Like I said...depressing.

On the other hand, I do NOT believe that these cable, internet and talk show attacks reflect how most people live and think in America right now. They are side shows, crafted to make a cynical buck for a limited audience. I go to a number of places throughout the year and see people living a more content lifestyle, talking about other things.

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Thank-you for your insight. I was a kid during the Vietnam years and I remember a lot of commentary and discussion about how it was the poor boys who couldn't afford college that got sent to Vietnam to serve and get killed. I suppose scholarships were available to a few, but I don't think financial aid (FAFSA) was available back then. If you or your family couldn't fork out the cash - you couldn't go to college. Therefore, for the most part, only people with the means to pay for college could get the deferral. Deeply unfair.

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