MovieChat Forums > The Whale (2022) Discussion > Ellie (Spoiler)

Ellie (Spoiler)

posted a year ago by Boromir (9712)
27 replies | jump to latest

I curious what is your opinion about Ellie? and I mean how you felt about her while watching the movie - from the beginning to the end.

I was very ambivalent towards her at first. On the one hand, she has every right to be angry with her father for not seeing her for years. It's a tragic situation for children that scars them for life, to think that one of her biological parents didn't want you. I have a friend like her, and it affects much more than you think in many areas of life.

On the other hand, I felt she take it too far with her cynical and dark persona, even cruel, at one stage at the movie I thought she may be a psychopathic. I thought she need to make better effort to understand Charlie POV and been more merciful toward him and his situation.

But the ending changing all for me.
When she said "daddy please" crying (probably the first time she calls him daddy), my heart was broken 😭 I just wanted to hug her like she is my own child.
At that moment I remembered that behind the anger and rage that we see sometimes among teenagers, there is often a sensitive soul that wants to feel loved.

[–] Inamina (37) a year ago

I'm with her mom on this one: she's evil. Her temporary vulnerability doesn't change her cruelty. She didn't want to help Thomas, she just wanted to hurt him. Yes, her dad left her at 8. Yes, he is responsible in part to how she turned out, but Jesus Christ she ended up cruel.

[–] Boromir (9712) a year ago

Thanks for your post Inamina.

She really ended up a little cruel, maybe the director go a little too far with her rebellious persona. However, if I remember correctly the most extreme thing she did was puncture the wheels of a car. I still think we seen a positive process though the movie, maybe slow and subtle, but still she becoming more caring about her father.

I would like to give you a different perspective on Thomas story. Yes, she wants to hurt him. No doubt, but maybe she do it because he representing the organization that separated her from her father? so there's a big chance Ellie wants to revenge for 'good' reasons and not for some sick joke. She do it for her father.

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

Whether Ellie is bad or not is open for speculation. What does matter is Charlie's perspective. He needs to believe that his daughter is a good person and isn't going to spend all the money on smoking weed or worse.

We all know that it is physically impossible for Charlie to stand on his own feet, let alone fly. So apparently, the whole reading scene at the end was Charlie's illusion. The "good" Ellie is just a projection from the moment the bright light shines on her face. And "Daddy please" could be interpreted as "Ellie please ~~ be good", Charlie's inner cry out before he died.

[–] Boromir (9712) a year ago

I write a post related to what you said (with no response 😞 - link below), wonder about alternative ending without the daughter forgiveness and only with Charlie convince himself that Ellie do it to saved Thomas and now he could die peacefully and feel happy.

According to you, what I described, the bottom line at least, is the real ending. Very interesting. I can't refute your thesis but hope you wrong. It's a little cruel . I prefer the more happy ending.

I can explain him fly as some kind of a metaphor of him dying in made peace with his god. We seen similar scenes in other movies endings and it's obvious for the viewer it's not real and symbolizes something else.

Maybe we gets some answer in the director's cut comments until than we can looking for a clues in the last scene.

https://moviechat.org/tt13833688/The-Whale/63f9f78ea9f60854257936b1/Alternative-ending-spoilers

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

I found an this interesting article about the ending:
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2022-12-23/the-whale-ending-explained-by-actors-and-directors-who-staged-the-play

But I think the director made the theme of this movie visually recognizable in the final beach scene. So, the speculation in the article is not necessary and inaccurate. Do you agree?

[–] TheGutterMonkey (292) a year ago

I don't buy the "it was in his head" idea.

Yeah, he floated, but I think that was obviously just an artistic way of showing he died content. To my mind, the "in his head" interpretation doesn't jibe well with what I perceive as the overall message about the innate humanity in people; i.e., their incapability to not care.

The movie focuses on a lot of characters with conspicuously awful qualities. The bigoted religious kid who embodies all the worst aspects that often accompany religious belief, for instance. Or the mean, alcoholic mother, or the delivery guy who snickers at the obese man, or even Charlie himself who abandoned his family to chase down his other desires. We could look at one side of any of these people and easily paint them as very terrible. But the film forces us to get glimpses of their humanity where we're shown that, as bad as they seem, there's still a person in there with real compassion and feelings. Ellie, I believe, is a big example of this. Where we, the audience, are only seeing that seemingly one-dimensional ("evil") side of her up until the very end when her humanity finally bursts through.

Ellie dropping her facade at the end is important because it proves the overall point. That despite everything negative we've been seeing, there really has been a caring person with genuine feelings underneath it all. A pure, "honest" version of herself (the same little girl who wrote that letter years ago) who's incapable of not caring.

Even when faced with the worst of people, Charlie repeatedly tries to be mindful of the fact that they're still people, regardless of their flaws or unlikeable qualities (something few do for him). By contrast, his ex-wife, his boyfriend's sister, the religious kid, or even students in his class are quick to judge, write off, or laugh at others based on one aspect of them. IMO, to be in disbelief that Ellie would show compassion at the end seems almost comically opposite to the point about the complexity of people.

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

Your interpretation is interesting. But how will you explain the significance of the final scene on the beach?

[–] TheGutterMonkey (292) a year ago

I dunno. I didn't really think too deeply about the beach aspect if I'm being honest. I just sort of assumed (maybe lazily?) that it was him just thinking back to a happier moment in his and his family's past when things seemed purer and more innocent for himself and his family; when he was hopeful and the future appeared to hold more possibilities, for instance, and his little girl hadn't yet begun to put on this hard, sarcastic, and (I'd argue) phony persona (something that appears to happen to many people as the tragedies and bad experiences of life repeatedly slaps them in the face). Or something along those lines, at least.

I suppose, as well, that it could likely be a reference to Moby Dick and/or his daughter's interpretation of that story, of course. But I don't, personally, have an opinion on what specifically that reference would be saying if it's the case.

Generally, I suppose I figured the film was basically just emphasizing his contentment at his final moments (after seeing a more real version of his daughter again) by showing us this happy memory again.

[–] StoneKeeper (21194) a year ago

What do you think the final beach scene meant?

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

Aren't our happy memories with family on the beach very different from the scene we saw at the end? Charlie and his family were separated and everyone seems to mind their own business. In the article I linked above, Samuel D. Hunter interpreted the scene as Charlie's "choosing to stay or leave" moment, adding that "both paths are complicated and tragic in their own way."

Tragic for sure, but I don't think Charlie died with regret. As he told Thomas and Ellie, he was sorry to leave Ellie, but never regretted falling in love with Alan. Ideally, if Alan was still alive, the father-daughter relationship might have been restored once Ellie grew up. Unfortunately, Charlie became self-defeating after Alan's death, and he distanced himself from Ellie for her own good.

I think the theme of the play and this film is the same – to make the audience think about how we can overcome the barriers of relationships. The beach scene visualizes the disconnection between family members as a reminder.

[–] StoneKeeper (21194) a year ago

Nice, I like your take on it.

Only nuance I would bring is, for me the theme of the movie is more centred on how even if humans have a lot of evil, obsessions, anger, judgment and hypocrisy in their person, in the deep bottom, we are all good and want to care for others.

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

Throughout the film, Liz is the only one who really took care of Charlie. Here is a conversation between them which I found very crucial:
Liz: How's it been?
Charlie: Getting to know her. She's amazing.
Liz: You still do that.
Charlie: What?
Liz: That positivity. It's so annoying.
Charlie: You're a complete cynic.
Liz: Just trying to balance us out.
Charlie: Yeah. I guess I do miss that.

I am not cynic, but this tragic story clearly implied that being positive like Charlie is not a practical solution, on the contrary, it might led people to derail from reality by the end. That's because in the deep bottom, people are capable of care as well as not care at all. The dramatic smashing laptop scene meant to be a shock therapy for the audience like you.

[–] StoneKeeper (21194) a year ago

I think you just confused Liz with the ex-wife because she’s the one who said that I recall.

[–] zeesha (1754) a year ago

You are right, it probably was a conversation with his ex-wife. But that didn't change my point- being such a positive person all his life, Charlie ended up dying alone. The "good daughter" reading scenario was just in his desperate mind, adding more flavor to the tragedy. The contrast between imagination and reality makes some of us understand why Charlie sought the closure.

[–] StoneKeeper (21194) a year ago

Your right.

[–] Boromir (9712) 9 months ago

As you said, there is a touch of sadness in that scene. I am also don't think he regret about falling in love with Alan, but he definitely felt regret about leave poor Ellie. After he iron out the difficulties with Ellie it's make sense that his mind go back in the time to the day in the beach when he decide to leave his daughter.

[–] daredevil1 (95) 5 months ago

I agree with that. I think people badly miss the point purposely if it enables an alternative interpretation that makes them seem clever or 'subverts' what they think the average Joe took away from it. If it's some metaphorical death, then she left him to die alone and I just don't see that being the takeaway. The movie even goes out of its way to show her keep stopping at the door and coming back multiple times throughout the other days (in fact every character does this a little too much, or paces the room when anyoneirl would have just left, but whatever).

[–] Inamina (37) a year ago

1. She gave her father sleeping pills that could have killed him
2. She filmed Thomas making a confession that she later used to send to his parents. That confession will probably send him to prison. She threatened to accuse him of rape, and I'm sure she wasn't bluffing.
3. She probably killed the bird that her dad was feeding ( she broke the plate of food that was at the window)
4. There are some other bad things her mom mentioned about some girls at school, that she hurt. When your own mom thinks you are evil...yeah, you have a problem

[–] [deleted] a year ago

i thought she was terrible.

[–] Boromir (9712) a year ago

1. It's not true, it's f#@k up already she gave him sleeping pills at all, but from what I remember Liz said that the two pills can't kill him - only if she give him more pills. It's still evil thing to do, mainly for a man suffering from overweight and health problems. I'm sure she didn't think to killing him, maybe wanted to be alone with Thomas.

2. It's possible, but unlikely, that her threatened to accuse him of rape is real.

3. There is no evidence of this (for example, no blood on the plate).

4. It's true, probably bullying some of her friends at school.

[–] Interlepos (1784) a year ago

5. She posted a very unflattering picture of her obese father on Facebook with a cruel description...

[–] Spiffy666 (398) a year ago

There is no reason her sending the recording to his parents would hurt him. The already know he had stolen the money and run.

The one thing that is clearly established about her is how smart she is. For her to think she was doing him some harm by sending that would make zero sense in that context.

She sent it to help him out. It was obvious she had rage issues because of her parents and acted out in and ways, but that wasn't one of them.

[–] sut6432 (2833) a year ago

I hated her. Thought she was awful, and wish somebody in this film had the guts to tell her she is a piece of shit. If I was that religious kid and she kept taking pictures of me I’d smash her phone. She really got under my skin. Kudos to Sadie Sink.

In a film full of horrible and selfish characters, Ellie still really stood out.

If I had a daughter like that I would eat myself to death too! 😂

[–] GonoManiax (58) a year ago

I think Aronofsky is a big The Last Of Us fan, and right after HBO announced that Bell Ramsey was being cast as Ellie, he decided to actually include a GOOD LOOKING Ellie on his movie as a revenge.

[–] jacotodd47 (997) 9 months ago

Hhmm. If I had met Ellie. Thinking of it objectively, my first thought would have been "SHe's just a teenager, let her spew her nonsense and don't say a word".

I would also have noticed she was bright. Then I would start thinking - how can I make this useful? IN other words, how can I get this girl on the right track to use her good brains the right way.

Her swearing would have bothered me but I wouldn't say a word (see above comment).

Yes, and the ending proves, shes just another terrified teenager looking for someone to comfort her.

[–] [deleted] 8 months ago

She acted like she had some kind of oppositional defiant disorder. When we first meet her, she clearly has a grudge against her dad, but then it turns out she seems to treat everyone around her that way.

I agree with you, though. I also felt more sympathy for her after seeing what her mom was like. She didn't fit in at school, and then she had to come home to all that unhappiness and negativity coming from her mom. I'm sure that had something to do with her surly personality.

[–] Boromir (9712) 8 months ago

I did not actually expound upon her mother's disposition as the impetus for my empathetic sentiments. My sentiments toward her remained ambivalent throughout the film, but they underwent a transformation as the narrative reached its conclusion, where she shed the veil of indifference, revealing her profound vulnerability.

Nonetheless, if you have already mentioned this subject, there is undoubtedly no denying that the mother's attitude clouded the atmosphere, and only intensified her resentment and anger towards her father. You described a depressing situation of a teenage girl who cannot find a place where she will feel happy. To compound her inner turmoil, there is the fiery resentment she harbors toward the religious institution that played a role in her father's deteriorating health. You paint a depressing picture of a young woman adrift without any anchor—be it familial, social, or spiritual.

Nevertheless, in my estimation (given that we often decipher subtleties not manifest on the screen), the absence of her father stands as the predominant catalyst behind her problematic behavior. Ellie projected her anger at her father abandoning her onto society and humanity at large.