MovieChat Forums > Eyes Wide Shut (1999) Discussion > Mysterious woman at the party

Mysterious woman at the party

posted a year ago by Carlo (62)
17 replies | jump to latest

So it reigned a bit of confusion over the identity of the mysterious woman at the orgy and Kubrick stirred that confusion on purpose. I'll try to explain why. In the movie, Ziegler ( Sydney Pollack) makes Bill (Tom Cruise) believe that the woman whom he saw at the morgue, Mandy, was the woman at the party who had said that she was "ready to redeem him". That woman is not Mandy. Mandy was at the orgy but she was not the mysterious woman with whom Bill talked. So why did Ziegler tell Bill a lie? Because he wanted Bill to believe that Mandy might have been killed. He wanted to scare the hell out of him and warn him about the dangerousness of the satanic sect which he had seen. The whole movie is an elaborate luring of Bill. The prostitute whom Bill meets on the streets of NY was sent by Ziegler. She knew Bill's name and profession although he didn't mention this to her. Another example. Nick Nightingale was authorized as well by Ziegler to let Bill know about the cult. The whole point of these traps planted by Ziegler is to get Bill's daughter, Helena. We see that at the end of the movie. Helena walks to some bystanders in a toy shop and these persons are exactly the same whom we saw at Ziegler's party at the beginning of the movie. This movie is a movie about the satanic cult that rules our world and how this cult is based upon pedophilia.

[–] Chester (223) a year ago

Agree that the girl in the morgue is not Bill’s ‘redeemer’, but was Mandy - the prozzy we saw at the beginning and who likely OD’d again.

Disagree that the street whores and Nick were all secretly working for Ziegler to lure Bill, that’s absurd, as is the idea that ‘they’re after Bill’s daughter all along’ 🤣

Agree that the film is about the Epstein-style power elite who have an oversized say in world affairs and a very unhealthy interest in underage sex.

[–] Carlo (62) a year ago

It's not absurd at all. The hooker knew that Bill was a doctor despite the fact that he hadn't even said his name to her. Nick is clearly showing off secretive information about a very powerful satanic sect. Nick knew what kind of people he was working for. You don't put out that kind of information like that. Bill was lured into the cult because the cult wanted his daughter. At the end of the movie, you can see that. His daughter is walking with the same people who were at Ziegler's party at the beginning of the movie.

[–] Chester (223) a year ago

Assuming for the moment that the ho did inexplicably know Bill’s profession, why didn’t Bill remark ’how do you know I’m a doctor’?

Nick was just answering Bill’s question about ‘where are you going?’ and sharing a cool story with an old friend. There’s no indication that he knows anything beyond what he saw when the blindfold slipped, and he is later punished by the cult for his indiscretion. He’s clearly not in on it.

You’ve completely invented the idea that the cult were after Bill’s daughter.

[–] Carlo (62) 3 months ago

No, I didn't. You didn't watch the movie with attention. The guys with whom the daughter walks away at the end of the movie are the same guys whom you see at the Ziegler's party. Kubrick was known to be very accurate in the shooting of his scenes and the fact that he chose the same people to perform two completely different scenes tells a lot. Why didn't Bill ask the hooker how she knew he was a doctor? Gee, man! Did you see what kind of character Bill is? He's a complete idiot. He's blind to the events that unfold around him unlike his wife who knows very well what's going on.

[–] Melton (2338) 9 days ago

The daughter doesn’t ‘walk off with’ anyone, she’s exploring the huge, busy toy shop and other people walk in the same direction. Which two men from Ziegler’s party do you imagine these people to be?

There’s no indication that Bill’s wife knows any more than he does. If anything she knows far less because she hasn’t been to the crazy elite orgy.

You need to distinguish between what is in the film, and what you’ve pulled out of your ass.

[–] BillySlater (4108) a year ago

There´s nothing that suggests the cult is Satanic. Satanic behaviour doesn´t mean they´re a Satanic cult. A Satanic cult implies overt Satan worship. The cult were Hedonists/Adulterers at worst. If they were paedophiles, it would have been seen at the mansion.

[–] christomacin (4532) a year ago

There is also nothing that indicates Helena is being kidnapped or abducted by anybody. Yes, the two gentleman and the guy with long hair are also seen at Ziegler's Christmas party. So, obviously that is significant call back. Also, the fact that Ziegler's wife is named "Ilena" (a variant of Helen) is also significant. I think people are drawing the wrong conclusions from that scene, however.

While I don't agree with the "abduction theory, I do agree that paedophilia is one of the film's themes . The scene with Mr. Milich's daughter being pimped out to the Japanese businessmen is obviously also in the scene for a reason.

Also, the whole idea that everything Harford experienced that night was planned out in advance falls apart in the Sonata Cafe sequence... if you take the story too literally, which I think too many people are. Sure, they could have put his wife up to goading him into cheating, but how could they possible know he would chose to take a walk, which street he would walk on, and that this street would happen to be the street at which Nick Nightengale was playing in a club? How could they possible know how he would react and what he would do that night?

[–] BillySlater (4108) a year ago

I think its more ephebophilia than paedophilia, paedophilia generally implies they are pre-pubescent.
I thought Nick Nightingale told him where he would be playing while he was in town? I don´t think him showing up was happenstance but its true Nick had no idea when or if Bill would even show up.

[–] christomacin (4532) a year ago

Nick definitely does tell Bill at Ziegler's Party where he is playing later that night, so there's that. He doesn't mention anything about orgies until there second meeting at the Cafe. So, if they really wanted Bill there they should have made it a point for Nick to mention that at the beginning.

[–] BillySlater (4108) a year ago

Yeah I agree, I don´t buy the theory. Also, If Nick knew the people involved, why was it necessary to blindfold him? The theory doesn´t hold up.

[–] christomacin (4532) a year ago

So, what we are left with is a conundrum. The film is too dreamlike to be realistic and too realistic to be just a dream. I believe anything we think about this film has to take this into consideration. This is why I bristle at suggestions of "Helena's abduction" and "lost footage", which are attempting to place this film into a safer and more familiar "thriller" box and make it's elusive philosophical themes too literal. That doesn't mean that sex cults and child trafficking don't exist, and I don't think the film is saying they don't exist, but the film has a whole lot more to say than just that.

As for the supposed "abduction" in the toy shop, I can't deny that there is a lot going on in that scene and Helena is a much more significant character than here scant screen time would suggest. I just don't think she is being abducted literally. Foreshadowing her being seduced into life as a trophy wife in the future like Ziegler's wife - who has a very similar name (Ilena)? Perhaps. The scene in the kitchen where Alice and Helena are doing a homework problem of trying to figure out which guy has more money I think is more what Kubrick was going for. Also, Helena's obsession with going to see The Nutcracker. She is being socialized into looking for a "Prince Charming" with lots of money. Mr. Milich of Rainbow Fashions goes even further and outright pimps out his daughter. So the themes are definitely there.

[–] BillySlater (4108) a year ago

https://moviechat.org/tt0120663/Eyes-Wide-Shut/5f0d36636f764961bff7d1a7/Moral-Virtue-or-Temporal-Hedonism-Subtext-Within-External-Narrative

I think you would find this thread interesting. Another user and I discussed our separate takes about the film´s themes.

[–] christomacin (4532) a year ago

I am familiar with Fandango. I am not sure if I've read that particular post before or not.

[–] yvesyves (632) 3 months ago

to me there is nothing satanic about the group and gathering that is shown

just very wealthy (married) men hiring beautiful young escorts wishing to stay secretive therefore wearing masks and having some unusual fun in a huge mansion ; the only slightly weird thing is the ceremony master walking with incense and tapping his stick on the ground; otherwise the rest is a just a fantasy orgy (which i would take part in if i could)

[–] Annkat (186) 3 months ago

It’s Satanic. It takes place on the winter solstice. A lot of cultures name it differently. One name was mother’s night and it was used as a fertility ritual.

The controllers believe that the female womb is a portal. The sex rituals open the portal and the controllers use their will to get their desire for power, riches or fame granted. If a child is conceived from such a ritual it is said to be sacrificed.

[–] agentalbert (2354) 3 months ago

Maybe "Satanic" in that actual satanists are really just hedonistic atheists. They are libertines. They don't believe in "Satan" as an entity the way Christians believe in Jesus or God. "Satan" represents the freedom to do as they want and to indulge free from the moral constraints that come from Christianity. Pass the cocaine, I'm gonna bang this hot model, Hail Satan!

So maybe you could call these people "satanists" in that regard if you want. There really isn't enough to know, but "Satanic" of the type more commonly portrayed in supernatural movies, worshiping Lucifer a fallen angel in hell? Nah.

[–] Carlo (62) 3 months ago

Nothing satanic? The ritual that you see in the movie is a satanic one. They play an Orthodox mass backwards, which is a must in satanic rites, and they perform mass orgies which are meant to rise tantric energy. Aleister Crowley performed a lot of these rites.