MovieChat Forums > Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) Discussion > Problems with Terminator 2

Problems with Terminator 2

posted 4 years ago by Heisenberg (6345)
31 replies | jump to latest

This movie is awesome, one of the best ever, one of my favorites.
But nothing is perfect, so here's my nitpicking list (to be continued):
(it's about the THEATRICAL version, so no complaints about smiling classes here)

Too many coincidences:
1 Sarah escapes the minute they are coming for her. Ok, so she saw new t101 pics. She didn't waste one second to make a plan or anything.
2 BOTH John and t1000 make the exact same "get to Sarah plan" the very same moment...It could have worked better if t101 said something like "according to my execution plan, t1000 next move is to replace your mom". At least they would have explained the perfect synch in a believable way. No, it's John deciding this and he's sharp by a matter of seconds!
3 t1000 hijacks a liquid nitrogen truck. What are the odds of that truck not being manure?
4 Heroes escape in a steel factory. Not by choice, nor strategy. It was just there where their car was pushed in the chase.
5 t1000 is dropped into a furnace. Not by choice, nor strategy. It was just there when they had no other option but shoot him. And they actually don't push him or anything, he just falls in (...thank god he does! Cuz they all just stare at him hoping he does...)

"I know the script" moments:
t101 takes off the skin on his hand to show Dyson...what? That he's a cyborg? Did he know that he had the hand of his brother in his lab? How did he? It could have worked perfectly if they spent a line saying that skynet or future John knew that they recovered the chip and the hand. Otherwise, it's another coincidence, a pretty unnecessary dramatic one (wouldn't he just do something a bit less self damaging? What if they later on needed to pass him as human? Sarah made that point 20 minutes before "you self heal? good, it's important that we can pass you as human". wtf, did Cameron forget he just wrote that?)

t1000 in pain...
1 why would a melted metal machine be in pain when he gets shot in the belly with a granade bullet? What's there to do other than take a minute to reprogram his parts to form another humanoid form? No, he stands there baffled, screaming in pain. As if it didn't get shattered into a million drops 10 minutes before...
2 Later on, he drops in the melting furnace. Why the screaming and painful expressions? I can go with the thrusting in the liquid, since it was trying to swim out. But the yelling? And the painful face he makes? (Also, who's the stripper there in that little "best of" montage???)

t101 not acting like a terminator:
1 at the end he says he understands crying. Why would he? Maybe he was referring to the little performance given by his brother in the lava a minute before, he looked like he was crying.
Also, it didn't work in the moment, would have been more tragic and sad if he didn't understand the sentiment but simply sympathized with John, and he just kept going with his new mission without all this "I'm turning into a human" bs.
2 he picks up a gatling gun and smiles. Ok, it's a great scene. But would the terminator from the first film smile at John like that? It would have been better if he posed with it confidently, as in "this fits like a glove", and John could have commented "that's definitely you" and smiled at him all the same.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something now, but anyway, what's on your list?

[–] crc32 (2584) 4 years ago

2 BOTH John and t1000 make the exact same "get to Sarah plan" the very same moment...It could have worked better if t101 said something like "according to my execution plan, t1000 next move is to replace your mom". At least they would have explained the perfect synch in a believable way. No, it's John deciding this and he's sharp by a matter of seconds!

The T-1000 was waiting for john to return to his foster parent's Its only when it realizes that its been made that it makes a move on Sarah connor. IE it wasn't till John connor called home and arnold intentionally misnamed the dog to test the T-1000 that actually causes the t-1000 to go after Sarah sp the proximity in time is much less of a coincidence.

> 3 t1000 hijacks a liquid nitrogen truck. What are the odds of that truck not being manure?
This isn't even a valid nitpick. Your using probablistic argguments. Are you demandfing a chekhov's gun for every minor detail? Your next complaint will then be "What are the odds they crashed into a steel mill".

> t101 takes off the skin on his hand to show Dyson...what? That he's a cyborg? Did he know that he had the hand of his brother in his lab? How did he? It could have worked perfectly if they spent a line saying that skynet or future John knew that they recovered the chip and the hand. Otherwise, it's another coincidence, a pretty unnecessary dramatic one (wouldn't he just do something a bit less self damaging? What if they later on needed to pass him as human? Sarah made that point 20 minutes before "you self heal? good, it's important that we can pass you as human". wtf, did Cameron forget he just wrote that?)

Really you don't think Dyson would have made the connection that a cyborg arm (non existent technology) that looks exactly like the one he had in the lab are most likely from the same origin? And yes the Dyson was iunformed about the future war. Your nit picks arn't even nitpicks so I'll stop refuting them at this point.

[–] millsey72 (9594) 2 years ago

Excellent job pointing out these plot holes. This is why I prefer Geneysis

[–] Heisenberg (6345) 2 years ago

Genisys is one big awful plot hole.
I am just nitpicking the excellent T2 for minor problems.

[–] millsey72 (9594) 2 years ago

Plot holes in movies is never a minor problem

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Oh, wow, you're fucking STUPID, Millsey72, you WOKE CUNT.

[–] sati_84 (441) 2 years ago

Terminator 2 is awesome, but no movie is perfect. I like when people nitpick, I nitpick a lot myself, so I welcomed your post.

Let me try to react / defend some of these points:

#1 through #5 - Fair points, these are the kind of lucky breaks / coincidences that I allow good movies to use. It's not too much and not that far fetched, but yes - they could have planned the steel mill in advance, that would have worked a bit better. About #1 - I think it's in-character for Sarah to try her escape ASAP after the new T101 was revealed, I'm really not sure what your problem is with this.

Taking off the skin from the arm - No, they weren't aware of the hand. It was a quick, dramatic, undeniable way of showing the T-101 is a cyborg, yes. I think even after that they did a good job of passing him off as a human, since a long sleeved jacket and a glove took good care of that, and I think they had alternative solutions in mind if someone notices - so I don't think this is as big of an issue.

[–] sati_84 (441) 2 years ago

T-1000 in pain - For #1, we don't have an in-universe explanation. That is part of the antropomorphizing of the villain. There are multiple instances in the movie where the T-1000 could have used forms other than his Robert Patrick police officer human form, but he didn't, mainly for dramatic purposes - we need to emphatize with the heroes, and we need to empathize to a certain extent with the villain as well - we need to see that he did not expect something, even if a cyborg would not be surprised / in pain by anyhing. Maybe the glitching could be a potential in-universe explanation? It was sadly left out of the TC, and I think it was a big mistake, as the effect itself was superb and the fake Sarah with her feet melted into the floor never really makes sense without it... shame.

For #2, yes, you are right, it wouldn't do that - again, dramatic licence. The audience must feel how painful it is for him to be melted like that, and needs to feel closure. It wouldn't cycle through previous forms, that's also for dramatic effect, and I don't mind. Maybe the glitching could be again an explanation, if you want - but again, it was left out of the TC.

T101 not acting like a terminator - You are right on all counts. Still I don't mind this. Cameron is allowed to develop the character of a cyborg, the movie would be less without it. Yes, it's a bit too dramatic, but that's subjective, and for me it did not cross the line. When the T101 is melted, it needs to be a tragedy, the audience needs to feel a loss, and not a loss of a machine, but a character. And this was accomplished here - Cameron even provided in-universe explanation with the learning chip - also sadly left out of the TC. The simle: I always saw that as something the Terminator picked up from people around him, but if we scrutinize the movie and don't find any such instance where someone smiled in the vicinity of him, then I think it's a throwback to the smile scene from the Special Edition.

[–] sati_84 (441) 2 years ago

If you love this movie, you can overlook this flaws. Yes, some of the events could have been built up a bit more. More agency for our protagonists would've been a good decision by Cameron, especially in case of the steel mill, I agree.

But these are mainly dramatic licence decisions. And there is a huge difference between bad dramatic licence and good dramatic licence. Cameron here clearly had a vision for how the movie must look, sound and feel. What the message is, what effect should be affected on the audience from scene to scene, beat to beat. And that vision is so clear and so beautifully executed, that even though some of these events are indeed "mistakes" in the sense that there is no in-universe justification for them, the overall impression is perfect. Yes, the impression is perfect, the movie isn't.

But a movie that has a perfect impression on you (me), deserves these kind of small mistakes to be overlooked.

Nevertheless I like to discuss them and speculate on them, so thanks for this thread, it's been fun to try to defend these points.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Wow, you're stupid, too, Sati! T2 is FLAW. LESS.

[–] sati_84 (441) 2 years ago

Hey man, your language is uncalled for. For your information, I rated T2 10/10, and would rate it again, any day of the week.

However, my ratings are subjective. Objectively, the movie could be improved. Any movie could be improved. Objectively, there is no such thing as a perfect movie.

So I agree with you if you say that T2 is subjectively flawless. But objectively it is not. I still refer to it from time to time as a perfect movie.

[–] Heisenberg (6345) 2 years ago

Ignore that troll.
I will reply to your excellent points asap.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

I thought we were cordial, Heisenberg?

[–] Heisenberg (6345) 2 years ago

As long as you don't troll.

[–] Heisenberg (6345) 2 years ago

#1 Sarah goes for the escape the very night she sees the t101 on tv.
It is in character. My question is: if it's so easy to escape, what was she waiting for? She executes her plan in a few hours with no preparation. Is that maximum security?
Or is her wait justified by yet another coincidence: she was waiting for Silberman to respect their agreement and let her see John for months, but that very day she was denied? So she just figures: enough playing the nice girl, I'm outta here in 5 minutes!

The hand skinning: sure it is quick and dramatic, but it really really seems like a reference to Dyson's lab hand. Otherwise, the t101 could have just done something else inhuman, like crush a rock or change his voice, to explain his nature. Dyson is smart enough.
What they do is an overkill, unnecessary, counterproductive and against what Sarah JUST said.

t101 and t1000 acting human: I agree it all works for dramatic effect, and we sympathise also because of it. But it is dumbing down the sci in favour of the fi. It is like all the noise we hear in space in Star Wars, exciting but silly. 2001 has a realistic but less exciting silence. I prefer that kind of realism to take sci fi to the next level, T2 is a great ride already, it could have used more realism in those moments I nitpicked instead of the sentimental, dumbed down choice for the masses. It would be more solid, more adult and less family friendly, like the first one was.

[–] sati_84 (441) 2 years ago

Sarah's escape plan - Ah, I see your point now. Well, it nicely comes together dramatically, and it's not entirely realistic - agreed - but it's in-character, and for this movie, I think consistency in writing style is key. More on that later.

Hand skinning - Yes, Sarah just said that, and there could have been other methods to show he is not human, but passing the T101 off as human was lower priority than convincing Dyson to help them. It's a relatively weak point in the script that this happened so close to Sarah saying that, so fair point. Oh, and the other methods are not that cool :-)

it is dumbing down the sci in favour of the fi. It is like all the noise we hear in space in Star Wars, exciting but silly

You prefer the realism, I prefer the director's vision. I don't think sound in space in Star Wars is silly, it's an artistic choice, which - and it is important - fits into the consistent and effective vision of the filmmaker.

This is why your thread was interesting. All fair points - but I would have never raised them, even though I like to nitpick movies. But I prefer to nitpick movies where the vision was not really correct from the start or was not executed competently. Those are the movies where these small points would stand, since the drama is not good, so applying the dramatic licence does not provide a good defense for them. But here it does.

So let's agree to disagree - I can see where you are coming from, but I think dramatic licence covers all of them sufficiently. Oh, and you mentioned 2001. Here is the thing: when I realied that 2001 doesn't have sound in space, I didn't go "Wow, such dedication to realism by Kubrick, fantastic!", but I went "Ok, his vision is clearer now, this is clearly a stylistic choice" I mean you can't seriously think he went for realism, when the moon scenes have normal gravity - wink.