Welp..... - Bernie Sanders Discussion

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

And the Democratic Party keeps on getting dumber...

But unlike the GOP which limits its stupidity to policy-making, the Democratic Party's stupidity is focused on doing whatever it can to prevent itself winning elections.

By preventing Bernie from participating in the Primaries the idiots at the DNC have just said "we're cool with allowing Bernie to run as a popular Independent and thus split the vote, thereby ensuring another four years of frickin Trump".

Like I said, these people are redefining stupidity.

reply

[–] HarlemEagle42 (16475) 5 years ago

Cocksuckers. As it is, Sanders is too old to run. He should team up with Warren as her VP or something.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Some of us find it difficult to forgive Warren for her fake Native American BS. Even she has finally acknowledged that it was wrong, but unfortunately I feel the damage has been done. She's given implicit permission to lily-white WASPs to falsely identity with oppressed minorities, instead of facing up to their white privilege and ancestral culpability.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

I still don't understand the outrage over what you're saying.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

She had a native American ancestor in her bloodline she identified with. She didn't use it to get favorable treatment to gain admittance anywhere.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I never said that Warren used her possible less than 6% Native American DNA to get favourable treatment to gain admittance anywhere.

But a lot of Cherokee spokespeople and tribespeople have taken offence at her statements, with many more condemning her than defending her.

Personally speaking, my issue is not specifically targeted at Warren, but comes down to my annoyance with the way rich or at least relatively privileged white Americans have used spurious, unverified or very very distant and remote Native American ancestry to basically escape culpability for the crimes of their predominant white ancestors, and to somehow assume a form of victimhood, despite having no real social or cultural connection to the Native American experience.

How dare rich white Anglocentric celebrities like, say, Brad Pitt and Kim Basinger, among others, speak as if they have any understanding of or connection to the difficulties experiences by genuine Native Americans throughout the centuries. How dare they pretend they have known anything but white privilege throughout their lives. And how dare they categorically claim to have Native American bloodlines on nothing more but family rumours, spurious and inconclusive science, and wishful thinking.

If these privileged blonde blue-eyed lily-white Anglos truly want to support Native Americans, they can do so as white allies, rather than pretending to 'feel their pain'.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

In case you're wondering why my last two posts were deleted, it appears that there is a problem posting messages that use the 'less than' character. So, instead I'll now simply use the term 'less than' rather than the symbol.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

I never saw Warren or anyone else pretending like they could speak of what it's like from personal experience. But empathy is good thing no?

AFAICT Warren's motives were good ones and her heart was in the right place. She was trying to bring attention to the plight of Native Americans because she identified with an ancestor whose stories were passed down to her. She never tried to claim she was a victim of prejudice.

I understand that some native Americans have taken offense. I just don't understand your outrage like she had ever claimed victimhood when she hasn't.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

She was trying to bring attention to the plight of Native Americans because she identified with an ancestor whose stories were passed down to her.

Why does she need a Native American ancestor in order to be able to bring attention to the plight of Native Americans?

Her Native American ancestry makes up, at best, less than 6% of her DNA. There is no way anyone in her recent family has suffered as a consequence of that ancestry, and to suggest otherwise is a massive insult to genuine Native Americans.

And the idea that she needs to have a distant Native American ancestor to care about Native American rights is as absurd as Matt Damon saying he cares about sexism because he has two daughters. Why is it so difficult for these people to feel empathy to oppressed groups and individuals without that family connection? It makes them sound like narcissists.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

"Why does she need a Native American ancestor in order to be able to bring attention to the plight of Native Americans?"

She doesn't need an American Indian ancestor to bring attention to their plight, it just turned out that way because of the affect family stories had on her as a child of her Native ancestor and how that side of the family had hidden that ancestry to be more accepted by white society. Her ancestor was on her mother's side and she (her mother) faced discrimination from her husband's parents who did not like the idea of their son marrying a woman with American Indian blood.

Why are you lambasting her as if that is wrong and instead making this about the percentage Native blood in her ancestry? I just don't get it. You're saying that as if it invalidates her personal experience of how she developed an affinity for Native Americans.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Yes, I am completely invalidating her 'personal experience' because as a white person who grow up in a white culture and whose Native American ancestry is so small and distant as to be negligible, she cannot have any possible clue about the real Native American experience. And it's offensive for her to suggest otherwise, which is presumably why she's apologised for it.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Again, it's called 'empathy'. She's not claiming she has personal experience of prejudice. You keep conflating these two things because it's the only way you can justify your argument.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I have plenty of empathy for (genuine) Native Americans. It don't claim to be Native American.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

You keep falsely accusing Warren of having claimed she knows what it's like to suffer Native American prejudice when she was only trying to express empathy and solidarity with their plight. In doing so you keep using your false accusation to fuel your outrage.

Your false outrage doesn't prove you to be any more empathetic here. All it demonstrates is a willingness to use a false smear to express outrage, which is neither noble nor heroic.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

'Solidarity with their plight'?

That makes it sound as if she knows their plight from personal experience.

That deeply offends me. How dare a privileged white person appropriate the suffering of people who have known genuine bigotry first-hand?

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

"That makes it sound as if she knows their plight from personal experience."

Nope, that's not what it means. The key word is "their". It's not "our". She wasn't bringing attention to prejudice against Natives from personal experience. You keep falsely trying to make this about her claiming personal prejudice without a shred of evidence to support your outrage.

That's simply wrong. Why do you keep doing this?

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Her family story is irrelevant.

She can be an ally without trotting out spurious stories of the 'bigotry' her white grandparents suffered (and yes, if her DNA is only 6% Native American, her grandparents were also white).

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Why is her story irrelevant? Because you said so?

Sorry, but her personal experiences aren't 'irrelevant' because you think it's convenient to find them irrelevant. Again, there's a big difference between expressing sympathy and solidarity from claiming prejudice from personal experience. In order to justify your outrage you keep trying to make this about the latter without any actual evidence. You still haven't come close to providing a coherent reason for why you're castigating a woman who was expressing sympathy for Native Americans or why you're choosing to criticize her just because she revealed she had a Native ancestor.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Because her very very distant and remote Native American ancestry is irrelevant to whether she has sympathy for Native Americans.

And because is so irrelevant it makes me question why she feels the need to bring it up.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Of course it's relevant. She developed an understanding of Native American issues due to her family story and history of one side of her family experiencing that prejudice.

You can't just say that's not relevant to why she came to her sympathetic understanding just because you don't want it to be relevant. It was epically relevant.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

SHE IS NOT NATIVE AMERICAN. Get that through your head.

For a lily-white person to talk about their family experiencing 'racial prejudice' is s slap in the face for real Native Americans.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Now you've clearly gone off the rails when the fact is she does have a Native ancestor and her mother had experienced prejudice from her father's side of the family who was against their marriage, spurring them to elope without their blessing. You're one of those people who thinks if you repeat your lie that she's not Native over and over it will somehow not be true. Except she proved she does have a Native ancestor.

And again, she has never claimed she herself was a victim of Native prejudice. She came to understand Native issues and feel sympathy BECAUSE OF HER FAMILY EXPERIENCE. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

Not only that, but how dare you pretend you know what it's like feeling the offense of Native Americans when you yourself have admitted to being white? It's shockingly hypocritical how you keep taking offense at what you could not possibly know or feel about being Native American yourself. She's more Native than you are so stop pretending like you know what it's like. You are such a fraud and hypocrite with your fake outrage.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I'm more black than Elizabeth Warren, and my ethnic bloodline is a lot more recent than hers, but you don't hear me going on about the oppression my ancestors experienced.

Because I don't need black and minority ethnic ancestors to care about systemic oppression and racism, and the truth is that Warren's Native American bloodline is six to ten generations back AT BEST, and that DNA test couldn't even categorically state with certainty that it existed.

Warren is another privileged white person trying to make her background seem more oppressed than it actually is. And I'd advise you to read this thread in order to understand the harm white people cause when they pretend to be Native Americans: https://moviechat.org/general/General-Discussion/5c72b3c3eb9d86583768616e/Casting-Non-Native-Actors-As-Native-Americans-Is-Wrong

You're just defending Warren because you're a Democrat and you like her politics. Well, I'm a progressive and I support a lot of her politics too, but I'm not going to let partisanship cloud my judgement as to what is right, and white people claiming Native American ancestry is not on.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

"I'm more black than Elizabeth Warren, and my ethnic bloodline is a lot more recent than hers, but you don't hear me going on about the oppression my ancestors experienced."

Well good for you. Funny how you think you deserve some sort of medal of honor like it's some major accomplishment on your part. But seriously, you don't because it's not. Because your experiences aren't hers. How and why she is came about her sympathy is HER UNIQUE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. There's nothing wrong with her sharing her personal story on why she feels an affinity for Native Americans because of her family story. It's absurd how you think she should have to deliberately lie about this.

And you can't seem to get through your head that SHE ISN"T CLAIMING SHE WAS EVER OPPRESSED. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL! So not only do you expect her to be dishonest but you keep having to lie through your teeth to make your point. You've gone off the rails dude.

And I'm speaking from the POV that I'm 100% an ethnic minority and if Warren had an ancestor of my ethnicity and said she felt an affinity for my ethnic group because of a family story I'd be thrilled that she shared such empathy. That's why I know you're a fraud with your virtue signaling crying faux empathy for minority oppression that you could not possibly know while you keep having to smear her as having claimed oppression when she never did. You are such a hypocrite. It demonstrates how unprincipled you are.

It's revealing how you have to resort to accusing me of being partisan after I point out the gaping flaws in your arguments. It really exposes your utter desperation because your logic fails on the merits.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I'm not partisan though.

It would be in my interest to ignore Warren's BS, because I mostly support her political platform, but I find lily-white WASP types appropriating ethnic minority hardship, either personally or via their 'ancestors' to be one of the most offensive things possible.

There's enough people in the world to feel genuinely bad for, without having to feel bad for privileged WASPs with spurious hard-luck stories that go back generations and are based on little more than hearsay. Privileged whites like Warren abuse our compassion fatigue by appropriating other's hardships.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

"lily-white WASP types appropriating ethnic minority hardship, either personally or via their 'ancestors' to be one of the most offensive things possible"

And that's why I know you're a fraud. Because you would appropriate personal offense to yourself when you're in no position to take personal offense. You have no real idea what it's like. So stop pretending.

And again, you haven't offered one shred of proof to back up your claims that Warren was ever trying to elicit sympathy for herself. Instead you keep making unfounded assertions because otherwise you'd have to admit you're wrong. You're just being hysterical and really can't be taken seriously.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

And you haven't been able to explain why it should remotely matter that Warren hypothetically has any Native American blood going back six to ten generations.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

She is SHARING HER PERSONAL STORY. That's why it matters. It had a major impact on how she thought of Native American issues.

That you can't seem to understand why it's important for candidates to honestly share their personal stories demonstrates how dishonest and unprincipled you are that you would rather have her lie.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I'm done talking with you.

You're repeating the same rhetoric again an again, to no avail.

If you can't see that parroting the same line again and again, rather than acknowledging the problem and seeking to address it, is unhelpful, I truly hope you are not in any way whatsoever involved with the Democratic Party's 2020 campaign. With that kind of mindset (taken directly from the John Podesta 'how to lose a sure-fire win election' handbook) I fear your country will end up with another four years of Trump.

Don't say I didn't warn you...

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Of course because you're a fraud I'd expect you to accuse me of what you're actually doing yourself parroting the same lines over and over without acknowledging the problem and seeking to address it. It's because you're fundamentally dishonest.

The irony is that it's because of uptight virtue signalers like you who are out to prove how PC you are that there are divisions among the left. So it's quite to the Democrat's benefit that your ilk is not participating in the 2020 elections.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

On a side point, if the Democrats really want to win in 2020, they need to drop the ego and self-aggrandising bullshit and show a bit of humility. No, don't give me "but...but...Trump". Trump is Trump, and that, sadly, works for him, but many of us on the left prefer humility, honesty, and a lack of hypocrisy, to narrative and myths.

Warren needs to stop pretending that she's something she's not, drop her pride, and admit she's a product of white privilege, like most white Americans, instead of pretending she's a 'victim'. Nobody votes for fake victims.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

Actually you need to stop lying about her pretending be someone she's not.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

How hard would it be for Warren to say "I'm not Native American"? Really?

If she wants our vote, she has to work for it. If not, then she should step aside.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

So you want her to lie? What's wrong with being honest like she has been about have a genetic ancestor?

The fact that you want her to lie to "earn your vote" seems to sum up pretty much what you're about.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

She has lied.

She has, at best, 6% Native American blood, and yet she speaks about how it has impacted her family.

That's absurd, and a large majority of Native American speakers on this topic have condemned her for this.

Do the opinions of non-Native American partisan Warren supporters matter more than actual Native Americans on this matter?

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

So you're saying she's lying about her parents eloping because of discrimination faced from her father's side? The onus is on you to prove it. Otherwise you're the habitual liar here.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

No, the onus is on her to prove it, because she's the one relying on this, very suspect, story.

If someone told you that they spoke to angels would you automatically believe them? Would the onus be on you to prove their BS story wrong.

Sorry, but I rationally refuse to believe the person claiming to speak to angels just as I refuse to believe that the parents of someone with as little as 6% Native American blood, at best, had to elope due to ethnic bigotry. Maybe her grandparents were cuckoo (it seems to run in the family) and that's why they discriminated against her mother, but I don't see how they can honestly argue that there was anything Native American about someone with such a remote bloodline.

reply

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 5 years ago

WTF? You're trying to equate a personal family story of discrimination to speaking with angels?!?! Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? You've blown a fuse dude.

You clearly are ignorant of the history of racism in the United States and the former laws here against miscegenation and the infamous "one drop rule". Families wanting to maintain racial purity 60-70 years ago is not hard to believe AT ALL.

reply

[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

You bought into fake news and the "Pocahontas" narrative that Trump sold you. Seems to be a recurring problem for you.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I don't care what Trump thinks.

Trump hates Jeff Bezos (as I do), and swears off alcohol and tobacco.

Should I become a chain-smoking alcoholic, just to define myself against Trump?

Seems to me that you’re the one letting Trump rule your life.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

The DNA saga was one of the more cringe worthy episodes in politics that I've seen.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I do agree (DNC saga), and the entire Sanders/leftist/whateverist versus DNC saga is still playing out in the most hateful, divisive matter online and in the social media.

Whichever Democrat is on the 2020 ballot, people need to shut the f!kh up, get the f!kh off their social media accounts, and VOTE. Unless the person is a lifelong Republican con artist like Jim Webb, STFU and vote for the Democrat. Warren, Booker, Yang, Pete the Indiana mayor, Castro, Gabbard, Sanders, VOTE.

Because you are voting for the ENTIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO CONTROL THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT. You're voting for the DEMOCRATIC platform to be the NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE AGENDA, you're voting for a national body of almost entirely all DEMOCRATIC officials and appointees and advisors and staffers and consultants etc who will be brought on board to brainstorm, write, and control EVERYTHING (all offices, agencies, departments, etc, all programmes and initiatives, etc), and to try to stack the courts as well. Some of the Democratic candidates and other big Democratic names may also be brought into the DEMOCRATIC Administration.

Rant over.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Totally agreed!

Whoever the Democratic candidate is, anyone who hates Trump needs to get out and back them. Anything is better Trump, whether they're far-left or centre-right.

That said, that should not be a licence for Democratic candidates to behave like a-holes and test the electorate's support. They need to think smart and watch what they say.

reply

[–] brux (14666) 5 years ago

He's already running, and if he runs and the Democrats do not accept him as a Democrat, then they will lose 100% for sure. They better rethink any policy that prevents Bernie from running as a Democrat. The guy raised 8 million dollars within a day of his announcement.

reply

[–] Kazak (2019) 5 years ago

Just posturing, they won't keep him out. They can't afford for him to run as an independent. When push comes to shove, they're going to ignore their own stupid bylaws. lol

reply

[–] brux (14666) 5 years ago

True, that is the one thing that really makes people hate the Democrats. The other side of this is that we can know for sure if they evict Bernie that the Democratic Party is a fake party created and funded by plutocrats to pretend we have a two-party system. The Democrats are nothing more than actors playing the losing part in a fake drama while the US becomes more and more fascist and anti-democratic.

However, a lot of the most strident independents are not really conversant with how the system works, and they need to be very careful what they say and what policies they back. The best example of this is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who is experiencing some backlash from some of here less informed comments, and her support for driving Amazon out of New York.

We cannot expect the system to change overnight. I still like AOC and I hope she will be more thoughtful in the future what she says.

reply