If I say I'm fed up with seeing rich or upper-middle-class white women portrayed as heroes and saviours (see everything from Game of Thrones to the third Purge film to the new film featuring Charlize Theron as the perfect blonde white liberal Presidential candidate) rather than people of colour and/or the poor/working-class, irrespective of gender?
shareWhy should their color matter if they've earned it? I would say that every female in Game of Thrones at least earned their status through many trials, tribulations and suffering as much as anyone regardless of color. And no one in GOT that was "upper middle class" became any kind of hero by being upper middle class. They all typically suffered great losses and were basically homeless for long periods of time.
There are some films that empower women without their earning it just because it's trendy but you aren't even talking about that. You're seeming to say that white people (or women specifically) should not be shown to be heroic or brave and that only women of color can be. What kind of crap is that?
There are also films these days that show women of color to be heroic.
Why can't there be both?
As far as Charlize Theron..well, I was once a fan but I do tend to see her as a pampered example of privilege which is unfortunately overshadowing her as a actress. I try to separate these things but sometimes they just won't shut up and let us.
Of course white people can be brave, but it seems these days, after decades of 'white male saviour' films we're now getting a deluge of white women as saviours, and even if their class is incidental to their narrative, as you say, if anything that just underscores my point. Why do they have to be white, invariably blonde and of Northern European ancestry, and upper-middle and upper-class?
The argument seems to be that sexism is the be all and end all, whilst ignoring the impact of racism and classism. What it also says to me is that power has now moved exclusively from white men, to white people in general, including super-producers like Kathleen Kennedy and Amy Pascal, but that we've still got a long way to go before black people and Hispanics have that type of influence.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
On another thread you were speaking of how film makers were able to include gratuitous female nudity by including female empowerment (primarily citing GOT). There is truth in that.
But it's better than the alternative that I grew up with which was mostly just the gratuitous female nudity without the icing.
As a white male you grew up with your heroes. I'm not begrudging you that but it is the truth. Mine tended to have boobs that jiggled but were mostly ineffective otherwise beyond their aesthetic value. My only beef with it currently is that all empowerment should be shown to be earned..not given. They have to convince me of its truth and sometimes the trend is just to throw it into a film or show because it is a popular concept.
Blacks make films that are totally with black artist these days. Whites do not. There will always be people of color in any white starred production..I'm not begrudging that either but there's certainly room for men and women of all races to be heroic.
And the whole white savior...what is that? If a white person helps a black he is labeled a "white savior" as if helping someone of a different race is a bad thing. A black person being helpful to a white is labeled a "magical negro" as if being kind to a white person is a bad thing.
People need to get their head out of their a## and realize people being kind or helping other people is not a symbol of anything bad unless you make it that way.
I think it makes since that blacks make movies for blacks. That is their viewpoint, It is what they know. And no, I don't mean they like those people. White people are also they when it applies.
shareSure, I have no problem of anyone making films at a target audience. There's room for everyone.
shareBut it's better than the alternative that I grew up with which was mostly just the gratuitous female nudity without the icing.Sure. I agree with that.
Yes, I never said old fashioned sexism wasn't honest. But it had its effect on me as a young girl and I waited a long time for there to be more. More for me as role models.
I seldom complained and I don't complain now.
But I'll take what I can get.
You've always had what you have. It was just the way things were...
Although these days I find white men to be the scapegoats a little too much and don't feel it's fair to blame them today for some things beyond their control.
And in referring to GOT I doubt that characters such as Ayra or Brienne would ever be sexually objectified and they are empowered females. As is Sansa.
Typical of complainers; ...people only see what they want to see.
In your reference to the "white slaver" scene in GOT where Daerney was freeing the slaves there is more to the scene then meets the eye. In one way it parallels Jon Snows journey in bringing the (white) Wildlings over the wall.
In another way there is some debate over whether Daerney is really such a hero after all, It might seem that most of her heroics might've been more to build her army than simple kindness as she is obsessed with power like so many other characters (male and otherwise) on the show have been..
Another thing to point out on the concept of "white savior" and "magical negro" is that it contradicts the notion that all whites were monsters to all people of color. No one ever has any trouble with the concept of all whites victimizing all blacks but not that there may have sometimes been ones that didn't. I believe it's likely that some people were human and humane even in the worst of times and if you're going to show the bad you should be allowed to show something good.
Yes. All of our views are coloured by circumstance and so because we live in a patriarchy, all our views are coloured by the dominate ideology of male chauvinism. It is up to us to acknowledge it and repent. It is very misogynist to try and deny it.
shareYou seem fine buddy
Have some eggs.
shareIt's hard to answer this even in a general sense without context.
Just from this snippet, I'd say you're trying to make a point that's more class-related, but the fact you're gendering your argument has a note of misogyny to it. Do I think more poc deserve to be heroes in general? Yes. But as you know, women of colour can also be rich or upper-middle-class, so I'm not really getting why specifically their being white is a problem. We don't have an excess of female saviours and heroes, let alone white ones, so whatever their walk of life or economic status, I welcome women heroes whatever the case.
If you also were re making the point that we need less white, billionaire, genius hero types like Iron Man, Dr. X or Batman, then that's an argument which I think has a lot more merit. I can't even think of the female heroes you're talking about.
If the only issue you brought up was class, then this wouldn't even be a question.
I kind of agree with you about the 'white billionaire genius hero types'. That is another bug-bear of mine.
I didn't mind Professor X so much to begin with, because he was disabled, and we don't see many disabled characters on film and TV, period, let alone as super-heroes, but the films contrived to show us that he wasn't born with his disabilities and that his physical afflictions are so unique as to be completely unrelatable to most disabled people.
As for Batman and Iron Man, I agree with you. Both Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark inherited a large bulk of their wealth, and thus had the resources and the time to devote to advancing their intelligence. A poorer, less privileged character who actually had to find the time between part-time jobs and taking care of parents/siblings in their journey to genius would arguably feel more genuinely heroic, especially if they were female and black/an ethnic minority.
Still, I think those comic-book films that explore and critique Batman and Iron Man's entitlement and lack of understanding for the world at large, do have merit. Unfortunately, the films don't do that nearly enough (and one wonders if the failure to sufficiently interrogate these characters' flaws come from the leading men playing them, and the reluctance of actors like RDJ to sacrifice their sense of cool).
That said, where I disagree with you is in my contention that there is now a trend in certain films and TV shows, like the third Purge film and Game of Thrones, to present us with these 'white female saviour' characters (the final scene of Game of Throne's, otherwise exemplary, third season was particularly embarrassing as we were invited to celebrate the deification of a little platinum blonde white girl as she is held aloft by scores of black and brown ex-slaves - watching it I kept wondering 'is this a parody? Is this meant to be ironic foreshadowing? Please don't tell me they're playing this scene straight").
The idea seems to be that since these 'white saviours' are women, and thus serve a feminist narrative, filmmakers and showrunners can easily ignore all other intersectional concerns with respect to class, race, culture and ethnicity.
shareI see where you're coming from. To be fair, I've not seen much of GoT, but from what I have seen, I don't consider any of the characters from the series to be heroic. However, that description does sound like a lot of bs - though I think context still matters. But is this scene that prevalent? How prevalent is it?
I definitely think YA based films overwhelmingly portray a lot of young white female protagonists, but they're usually neither heroic nor likeable and often from the lower class of some dystopian future. And even that's changed, what with the popularity of To All The Boys I Loved Before featuring an Asian-American female lead.
Again, I do think we need more POC onscreen full stop, not just for the sake of it, but because they actually exist. In heroic roles as well as all others. But I don't know if the issue is an excess of white women over any other women because I don't think we have enough women heroes full stop.
Speaking of YA, I like The Hunger Games, because Katniss is lower-class, and the series isn't simply a misandrist 'women, good, men, bad' fable (there are many heroic female characters, but there are also foolish, privileged ones like Effie, and ultimately untrustworthy and villainous ones like President Alma Coin). The female characters are stronger for their heroism, courage and intelligence, because it isn't simply attributable to their gender.
Think of it this way, if courage and intelligence was simply attributable to gender or race, wouldn't that rather undermine and discredit the individual achievements of those people who belonged to the supposedly 'superior' gender or race (i.e. "you're only smart because you're Asian" etcetera)?
But back to The Hunger Games, my only slight qualm is that they made Katniss, who is apparently olive or darker skinned in the books, another Northern Eurocentric white girl. That said, Jennifer Lawrence was very good in these films.