Russia has been really big on the sticks... where are the carrots?
I am dumbfounded at the level of destruction Russia is doing in Ukraine. I suppose Russia figures that, if they eventually win, this will mean lots of jobs for Russians to rebuild, and the Ukrainians will pay for it.
But doesn't that suggest that the Ukrainian people are not really the same people as Russian people, which Russia claims?
"Ukrainian people are not really the same people as Russian people"
That's Putin's propaganda. He also claims that Ukrainians are killing Russians which contradict his aforementioned propaganda.
Meanwhile, Putin is killing ethnic Russians who live in Ukraine as well as ethnic Ukrainians. That sociopath doesn't care. He wants to recreate an empire. Instead, he's a puny leader with a pathetic army that slaughters unarmed civilians because they fear fighting another army.
"Ukrainian people are not really the same people as Russian people"
"That's Putin's propaganda. "
...
This is like arguing how many angels can dance on the top of a pin...
I interpret Putin's propaganda to be that Ukraine has ALWAYS been Russian, so Ukraine should be part of Russia, ergo Ukrainian people have ALWAYS been Russian people...
As I understand it, in Ukraine there are ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Russians, ethnic Germans, and others.
or maybe I have that wrong...
I don't know what is the language "Ukrainian" or how it came to be... is it like "Italian" from "Latin?" "Dutch" from "Deutch?"
I don't there's all that much difference ethnically. Maybe Western Ukraine has a bit more of Polish genes because they were once part of Poland, and maybe Poland was once part of the Kievan thingie (a bit rusty on this part of the world). Anyway, the languages are fairly similar and they are both mostly Orthodox Christian. I don't think it is particularly an issue of genetics or religion, mostly language and culture. On the other hand, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
shareThe original Russian state, over a thousand years ago, was Kiev-Rus. So Ukraine is the original homeland of the Russian people. The Ukrainians have diverged a bit linguistically along the way. But they are closely related to Russians and they even call their country "Little Russia".
Ukraine had never been an independent nation until 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union. Yes, for over a thousand years it was never independent and was a part of Russia.
Moscow created the Ukrainian SSR when it created the Soviet Union.
So Putin and Russia have a strong argument. Bottom line, it's a Russian issue and the West has no business getting involved.
Kievan Rus was not a Russian state. It did stretch from Ukraine up to the Gulf of Finland. Kyivan Rus was around from the 9th century to the middle of the thirteenth century. Russia has not existed for 1,000 years. Russia only started in the 17th century or so. The Russians always called Ukraine Little Russia but the Ukrainians obviously don't want to be part of Russia.
The west definitely needs to be involved since Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Finland gained its freedom from Russia in 1917 and the Soviet Union invaded them in 1939. There are plenty of nations that gained their freedom from tyrannical empires and dictators. The west needs to protect those sovereign nations from a crazy authoritarian dictator who wants to grab more land. The west should get involved to prevent additional Russian war crimes and genocide.
Kiev-Rus RUS - it's how the name Russia was derived. Russians and Ukrainians were one people. The very name says it. Rurik it's founder was the legendary chief of the Rus, the founder of the Russian people.
And there was no separate Ukraine until the Soviet Union created the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can you show me a time in history before 1991 when Ukraine was independent? You can't because it wasn't.
No, the U.S. is not obligated to start World War III over Ukraine. We didn't give a rat's ass about the Russian invasion of Chechnya.
The U.S. has no more reason to be involved in Ukraine than Russia had when the U.S. sent federal agents into Mexico to control the drug cartels. The U.S. is not the world's policeman. That worked out real great for us in Vietnam and Afghanistan, didn't it?
The U.S. is not required to aid every sovereign nation unless they're a member of NATO and we have a defense pact with them. Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO in 1991. Now, all a sudden! Lol.
There were certainly Rus people back in the ninth century but they all became part of other empires. Parts of Western Ukraine were in the Austro-Hungarian empire. The cultures and languages of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Poland are all different. Ukraine had their own government from 1917 through 1921 but the Soviets conquered them and quashed their hopes for independence. Finland is another country that declared independence after the fall of the Russian empire and the Soviets tried to conquer them.
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainianNationalRepublic.htm
Chechnya was not a sovereign state. That was more of a civil war so I don't think the US wanted to meddle in Russia's affairs.
The US probably assisted Mexico in the drug war since US citizens were and are dying from illegal drugs. The US did not declare war on Mexico and bomb civilian targets throughout the country. The Vietnam War was probably not successful but the Vietnam communists eventually embraced market reforms. The US had to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 and Afghanistan was a success story until the Taliban regained control. There is evidence that Russia was assisting the Taliban.
The authoritarian dictator Vladimir Putin took over in 1999 so Russia was not a threat during the 90's. Ukraine was told that they would be considered for NATO membership in 2008 but I believe Germany had a policy of appeasement with Russia. Ukraine has been fighting Russia since 2014 but Putin's insanity pushed him over the edge. Even if Russia succeeds in conquering Ukraine, the sanctions will strangle the Russian economy over time.
"Russia only started in the 17th century or so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_III_of_Russia
[Ivan the Great] (1462) multiplied the territory of his state through war and through the seizure of lands from his dynastic relatives, ended the dominance of the Tatars over Russia, renovated the Moscow Kremlin, introduced a new legal codex and laid the foundations of the Russian state. His 1480 victory over the Great Horde is cited as the restoration of Russian independence 240 years after the fall of Kiev to Mongols' invasion.
Ivan III was the first Russian ruler to style himself "tsar"
It would have been accurate to say Russia started in 15th century but Russian territory was relatively modest back then until their expansion of the next 200+ years. The Kingdom of Poland and Russia signed a treaty over most of Ukraine in the 17th century.
That's interesting info on the restoration of Russian independence BUT it's from Wikipedia, an unreliable source that can be edited by users. The controversial point is that many Russians claim Kyivan Rus as the first Russian state BUT it included Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. I was arguing above that Russia started with Ivan the Great BUT Russians want to claim Kyivan Rus as the origins of Russia. I would even say that royal Russia ended in 1917 and the Soviet government ended in 1991.
"Russia only started in the 17th century or so."
I had thought you might have been referring to Peter the Great (1682)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Great
He tried to bring Russia out of the 11th Century. One of the things he did was make Russian men wear full trousers. Before that, they wore pantaloons with bare asses so they could just squat and shit as the need arises.
I'm not a Russian historian but I did take a Russian history class way back when. I don't always remember the dates from 500 years ago so I have to look it up. I think Ivan the Terrible did the big eastward expansion but there was steady enlargement of the Russian empire according to this map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_Russia#/media/File:Russia_1533-1896.gif
I think most empires want to keep growing and spreading their influence. I've never heard of pantaloons with bare asses but I know many cultures wear various types of robes, kilts, wraps and leaves.
Also on Netflix they had a show a few months ago about Ivan The Terrible (Ivan IV) He also tried to convince the Russians to stop acting like backwater retards and made it illegal for nobles to fuck goats. The nobles responded by poisoning Ivan's wives.
shareThat's not true. It hasn't continuously been a Russian state. It's been invaded and controlled by other countries. It was part of the polish empire for some time, or parts of it were anyway.
They have their own language and culture. It being related to the Russians' culture doesn't mean Russia has some kind of natural right to own the place.
Sorry bud, but it's not our problem. Ukraine is not even a member of NATO. You want American troops to get involved in every world conflict? Hell no.
shareI thought the original Kiev-Rus people were Vikings settlements sailing their longboats down rivers from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. For the guy who wants to call it 1,000 years.
share[Kiev] probably existed as a commercial center as early as the 5th century. A Slavic settlement on the great trade route between Scandinavia and Constantinople, Kyiv was a tributary of the Khazars, until its capture by the Varangians (Vikings) in the mid-9th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv
Under Varangian rule, the city became a capital of Kievan Rus', the first East Slavic state. Completely destroyed during the Mongol invasions in 1240, the city lost most of its influence for the centuries to come. It was a provincial capital of marginal importance in the outskirts of the territories controlled by its powerful neighbours, first Lithuania, then Poland and ultimately Russia.
(I recommend playing the PC war game "Medieval Total War" (2000?) to learn stuff about European history you missed in school...)
The Ukrainian alphabet is Cyrillic, Greek foundations like Russian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_alphabet
Putin doesn't know anything about carrots. He's an authoritarian dictator who kills everyone who disagrees with him. Putin is almost like a crazy ex-boyfriend who loves a lady but will kill her if she ever leaves him. Russia could get away with firebombing Syria and Chechnya but his forces are now firebombing a sovereign state. That means that Russian leaders could be charged with war crimes and genocide.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10606487/Is-Putin-suffering-roid-rage-Spies-suggest-bloated-appearance-drugs-effect.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/17/vladimir-putin-war-criminal-ukraine-russia-president-justice
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-war-to-crush-ukraine-is-part-of-a-long-kremlin-tradition/
And the Poles are the same as Germans and Austrians. Italians and Portuguese, etc.
share