MovieChat Forums > The VVitch: A New-England Folktale (2016) Discussion > As discussed on a post about another mov...

As discussed on a post about another movie. Where is God?


Someone posted something on one of the Paranormal Activity movies here on Moviechat. They asked where God is when evil witches and demons cause chaos. In those movies, we see priests and people invoke prayers to God to save them from the evil Toby, but to no avail. Toby gets them everytime. The same can be said about this movie. This family was a Christian family. They fear God, and the father, especially, is a very God loving, God fearing man who tries to teach is family morals and values and how to be a good Christian. Even through all this, the witches and the devil win in the end. God's power is nowhere to be found in their trials. No miracles happen, like the demons, devils, witches, all evil, diabolical creatures, get killed. Only the good guys get killed. Only babies, like Samuel, get abducted by the witches, and turned into stew. Is it because it's a horror movie? If it was any other type of movie, maybe the good guys would win. Instead, we see them lose. We see the horror, the death, the horrible goat, Black Phillip, who is really satan in disguise, and we see all these horrible situations befall the family. What if a family of athiests ever got attacked by demons, witches, or the devil himself? That would be a possibly worse situation. Anyone have any thoughts?

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Well, the movie suggests that it is their extreme fundamentalism which is the root of everything - notice how they are very quick to accuse family members, and how the mother explains everything bad which happens as being the result of sin and lack of faith, yet despite their religious fanaticism, Ie extreme puritanism, it is exactly them who get tormented by the devil, not the townsfolk, exactly because they believe he is the cause of everything.

I don't know the point the makers of this movie tried to get across, if any. I feel it could go in two directions:

1: The goat was indeed the devil, who corrupted the children and eventually enticed the daughter to become a witch, via a deal with the devil. The whole story is the daughter becoming a witch, which was the whole purpose of everything that happens. Thus it becomes a coming of age story, which is kind of a common movie trope for American movies, for some reason.

2: The whole thing was caused by their stressful situation combined with their extreme religious approach to reality; nothing really happened except they went insane and killed each other, after their harvest failed, which meant certain death anyway, because they could not bear the shame of coming crawling back to the town begging the others for mercy. The movie is based on how they saw it all via their increasing delusions. In the end they all died, including the daughter who ended up completely removed from reality, IE psychotic, and it's her final delusion we see.

The problem with this is that we see the witches independently of the people, even before anything happens. Perhaps it's supposed to be how the family just imagined the witches, but the movie actually seems to suggest that it was all real, despite it has many elements which suggests the second interpretation, IMO.

Ps. Another poster in another thread here noticed the ergot on the wheat, which could've been a contributing factor for the delusions.

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I'm sorry but point 2 is not a possibility. I've heard this theory before but please let's just be honest....There was absolutely ZERO indictation in the film that this was the case. None at all.
We, the viewer see the witch when she is by herself....Zero indication of an hallucination.
The director himself has called this film a "fairytale for adults"
What do we often see in fairy tales? That's right...Witches.

If you wanna interpret it that way, that's up to you but it was not how the director intended it to be.

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I already wrote that it cannot be the second interpretation, but the movie has many elements thrown in which point in that direction anyway, such as the absurdly extreme fanaticism in the mother's actions as the story progress, she does indeed seem very obviously insane at some point. Also the wheat does look like it has an ergot attack. I didn't even notice this during the movie, I considered hunger and imminent death to be the reason why they fell apart, but I rewatched the bits because someone mentioned it, and it sure looks like it has ergot - which just seems unlikely to be happenstance. But who knows, maybe it is?

It is a fact in the movie that their harvest failed, they already starve and that they will die of hunger, unless they return to the town where they were thrown out by other puritans, supposedly because the family were too fanatical in their religiousness. They choose to stay, which means they choose death rather than humiliation, and this was completely independently of the concurrent witches story. Now you may think that it was all the witches fault or the fault of the devil, and maybe that's how it's supposed to be, but it's actually not a fact in the movie.

Just because they contradict what happens on screen doesn't eliminate the elements he put there, it just makes them literally impossible, but they're still there. It's like a two layered story. It's clearly based on an interpretation, but it's not based on Zero indication, as you write, it's just you who do not see it, because you eliminate the possibility based on the fact that we see the witches, which we indeed do.

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No, I am just going by the words of the director who has stated several times in interviews that there was a literal witch in the film lol.
Those things you have mentioned are in the film because the director wanted everything to feel authentic. And most likely to throw the viewer off in to believing they were relevant factors....But once we have seen the whole film, we know they aren't.
So, again if that is how you choose to interpret it then fair enough.....But it is quite literally not how it is intended to be intepreted.

Also, why would you even want to intepret it that way?
To paraphrase something the director said...

"One upon a time a family went in to the woods and all went insane because of the ergot in the wheat......Does really sound like a good story?"

Not to me lol.

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Rajh, I already mentioned twice that I do not agree with the second interpretation.

In the meantime I looked up what he said, and he said stuff like this:
"But there are clues about different interpretations. So, for example, the rot on the corn is ergot, which is a hallucinogenic fungus, so if you wanted to take that route, you could. It’s not necessarily my route, but there are multiple ways in."
Straight from the horse's mouth.

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Yeah fair enough you did.
And yes, I have heard that quote from him too.
I just think it would be a pretty strange way to interpret the whole film when it's pretty clear that the supernatural elements were real.
Not only that but like the director said...It's not really a very interesting story that way is it?
Anyway, my bad, you did say that you didn't agree with that interpretation so I apologize for not acknowledging that.

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Well, the movie suggests that it is their extreme fundamentalism which is the root of everything

Actually I got the opposite message, since the movie ending reveals that devil exists and witches and curses are real. Indeed, that's a hell of a twist, since for the whole movie you think that it's a story about a fundamentalist family living in some schizophrenic fantasy world, and in the end it happens that this 'schizophrenic fantasy world' happens to be real. A bit like it happened in another movie, [spoiler]Take Shelter[/spoiler].

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Kuku, I do agree, that's exactly how the movie is, in the beginning it's their increasing fanaticism which causes all their problems, including being thrown out of their community, but in the end it turn out it was indeed the devil all along, and that the mother was right and the daughter is indeed a witch. But in the first part, if we ignore the weird witches imagery, there's a lot of strong indication that it's all their own fault, and that the mother is the main cause because she interpret everything that happens as a punishment from god, due to a perceived lack of pure faith, so they don't do anything about their misery. I wrote something like what you wrote in another thread here, it's how I see it too.

However. - that's just the story as it is, the author still does show the family as an insane bunch of fanatics who cannot get anything done because they expect God to help them directly, which does not happen no matter how pious they are or how much they pray, they still suffer and eventually perish, because even if the devil wasn't in the movie, and no witch was there, the family is still doomed due to a failed harvest and unwillingness to accept the defeat and return to the village and ask forgiveness. All that does not disappear from the story just because it turns out the devil and the witches are real in the movie.

Ps. finally, I recommend looking at pictures of ergot on wheat, it looks exactly like the spoiled crops the father looks at, at some point in the movie. After someone mentioned it I actually looked up how it looked and compared it and there's no doubt in my mind, the director meant it to be ergot, because it looks just like ergot. I wasn't aware of how it looked, so I didn't notice it initially, but it is obviously meant to be ergot.

Now, I still consider the story a supernatural horror, based on the overall movie, but it does have a lot of things thrown into the movie that suggests otherwise.

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"Now, I still consider the story a supernatural horror, based on the overall movie, but it does have a lot of things thrown into the movie that suggests otherwise."

Yes, to throw off the viewer.....We know by the end that it was supernatural...So, I am just wondering how you can think your second interpretation in your other post could still be a possibility?

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RAJH, it does not matter what the reason is, it is still in the movie. (see the other answer, the quote)

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I know it was in the movie, I'm just saying that it was probably to throw people off and that surely once you've seen the whole movie you can dismiss those things as a possible explanation? It doesn't matter too much anyway lol.

Personally, I hate the whole mass hallucination theory.
I understand how people have gotten the idea but I don't get how anyone would intentionally choose to interpret it that way.
I mean...
You go to see a horror film about a family living in the woods being tourmented by a witch...Sounds pretty terrifiying!
Then you find out, it was just about a family going insane because of the rotten corn?
Man, that would be hugely disappointing in my opinion!

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Actually I found the movie dissapointing in general. I find such cop out witch stories very contrived, because actual witches were women and some men who were persecuted by exactly Protestant fundamentalists during the witch hunts like in Salem. The witch segments are like the enactment segments in Haxan, the old B&W movie about witches. Those segments enact the myths, rather than the reality.

This movie is analogous to a WWII movie where the innocent Nazis try to escape an angry mob of evil Jews, exactly because the author choose a fundamentalist Puritan protagonist, who actually represents the very people who persecuted accused witches.

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Good point. And however...

Imagine you live in a world populated by witches, devils and curses. The harvest kept failing in some kind of supernatural way, and in such a 'witches world' chances are it really had a supernatural cause and the witch actually cursed them.

Of course, the smarter option was going back to their community. The father, though, was pigheaded and too proud to recognize defeat and travel back.

And however... once you've chosen to stay, when you're surrounded by magic and curses and devils and witches and they're very real... their attitude doesn't seem fundamentalist. Indeed, it seems the most rational one: in such a world, what would you do to face such threats but what they did?. It ultimately failed, but still seemed to me as the best last resource.

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Kuku, that's a good point, it is true, it can be seen as the rational answer to the supernatural threat, from within a fairytale story - though it failed. But what I'm getting at is IF you remove the supernatural, the witches, the devil, there remains a story about the religious fanaticism, hunger, food poisoning (apparently) and pride and I'm sure other such concepts as well. Regardless of whether there's a supernatural factor involved, those themes are still present no matter what.

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Regardless of whether there's a supernatural factor involved, those themes are still present no matter what.

Mmmm... are we really sure about that?

I mean... we call it fundamentalist because it's extreme. And it's extreme because is far from some standard reasonable 'normal' behavior. But the moment witches and devils are real and live around you... then where lies what's reasonable and what's not? If all that withcraft stuff is real, it makes sense that in such universe praying would work and probably miracles are real, as devil is. That means that his position wouldn't be far from what's reasonable in such fictional universe. Of course, he's still pigheaded and takes more risk than necessary, but that's not the same as fundamentalist.

Food for though, heh?

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Pretty sure, watch the start of the movie once more and consider why they're thrown out of the town, they are essentially a family cult .

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