MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion > questions regarding Pym Particles + Time...

questions regarding Pym Particles + Time Vortex gps

posted 5 years ago by krazykh (28)
18 replies | jump to latest

Finally saw the movie tonight and these 2 questions have been bugging me, I did go all the way to page 8 to see if they have been answered before but could not find anything

As far as I understood the process, the particles are processed in the antman/time vortex suit as we see ant-man load up a vial and then accidentally use it up and the GPS is needed to successfully navigate the vortex. So

1. How did evil nebula return if she had left her GPS and Pym particles (they had such limited amount to begin with) for Thanos, it seemed like everyone needed their own gps device...(if you say she piggy-backed and DID leave her GPS for Thanos, see question 3)

2. How did Thanos's ship even process the particles, was the ship wearing a time vortex suit ? did they just sprinkle some Pym on the ship's nose ?

3. Ignoring the ship + pym particles issue, How did the ship navigate the Vortex ? If you could navigate the vortex without the gps and the only thing you needed was a person on the receiving end throwing random switches on a board (obviously this process does not require any sort of finesse) why did everyone need to time travel at the same time ? someone could stay back and guide everyone back by random switch throwing action. (Connects to my 1st question, If she had left her GPS then Thanos could just get to this time on his own, just like all the others got back without the need for anyone on this end doing anything..but he had to wait till she used the switchboard meaning he did not have a GPS)

I'm sorry if I am going round and round between 1st and 3rd question, making my head hurt just trying to word my questions properly to make the most sense (English not my 1st language)

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 5 years ago

Pym particles are beyond the ability of anyone on earth to reverse engineer.

But Thanos has tech centuries if not millennia beyond earth tech.

I have no problem believing that he could and did reverse-engineer Avenger-Nebula's Pym particles and Stark's temporal GPS. At most, I figure he and his scientists would marvel at Pym's ingenuity, the way we marvel at Archimedes and his lever.

Then, when Thanos got dusted along with his entire entourage, Hank Pym was once again the sole keeper of his particles' secret.

[–] alienzen (1929) 5 years ago

Hardly, Hank Pym invented something that no one else in the galaxy had been able to. It would be more like if archimedes had invented an antimatter containment system.

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 5 years ago

I'm sure that's true in the comics, but this is the MCU.

Now I have no problem believing Hank came up with the idea before anyone else in the entire universe. Inspiration can be funny that way.

But once he did invent them, Hank made them using 60's & 70's technology. Cross was able to near-duplicate them using current human technology.

So it's hard to believe no one else in the galaxy, other than Hank and Cross, can make Pym particles once the secret's out.

I have to believe, once Thanos has samples in-hand, that he and his people could duplicate the tech.

[–] Jokerzreality (9) 5 years ago

According to the directors youre right

[–] alienzen (1929) 5 years ago

All the pym particles do is shrink(or grow) things. They need the pym particles to shrink down to quantum size. Once they have shrunk to the quantum realm, they need the gps to navigate where they will come out again when they grow back to normal size.

The pymn particles can shrink objects as well as humans. They also shrunk rockets ship so that Clint and natasha could use it to fly to Vormir. I don't see why building a GPs into the ship would be a problem. But you could just shrink the ship and everyone in it and get someone to carry it in their pocket. This begs the question why the Avengers didn't do this to save using up all the pym particles, but let's not overthink this too much.

How Thanos managed to get through without pymn particles or GPS is an unanswered question. You just have to turn your brain off here. I mean Natasha died on Vormir, therefore her GPS and pymn particles would have still been with her body, and Thanos could theoretically have used that one, but how the hell would he have known and I'm filling in lots of plot that wasn't in the film.

Let's say Tony could have built them a backup GPS, since GPS's didn't need to be rationed and it would make sense in case on got damaged. I guess she could have given Thanos a tiny bit of the pym particles, enough so he could replicate it. He could have had years in his own timeline to do it, and still have arrived only minutes after evil Nebula. How he is able to do it when no one else in the Galaxy apart from Hank pym has ever managed it is open to question. But I guess there are lot's of smart people out there.

Basically it's a plot hole.

Incidentally you may be wondering how Tony and Steve went back to the 70s from 2012 without a quantum tunnel anywhere in sight. I sure am.

[–] krazykh (28) 5 years ago

I was indeed wondering how they time traveled from 2012 to the 70s but since that question had already been discussed here in one of the threads, I didn't want to repeat it here...A nice clean ending but wayyyy too many holes in this movie

[–] Jokerzreality (9) 5 years ago

Its not a plothole. The Russo's have confirmed Thanos reversed engineered the pym particles

[–] krazykh (28) 5 years ago

No offence to the Russo's but How is explaining things after people have already seen the movie,and things that were not shown in the movie any better than a plot hole..they could come up with whatever answer they wanted to at that later time, just like people on these threads come up with many plausible answers to these questions. A 10 sec scene showing Thanos saying something about the particles to one of his underlings would have closed this hole

[–] alienzen (1929) 5 years ago

agreed. If you have to write your own back story for a film to make sense, it's still a plot hole.

[–] triplea (3577) 5 years ago

Yeah it's a bit like 'the book' disney released after TFA in order to explain some of the BS people were noticing.

If you need to do that, you're admitting that it's an issue.

[–] Jokerzreality (9) 5 years ago

Well, i take the words of the creators over some random people's theories on the internet. You´re right, in that they could make up any explaination they wanted. However, you don´t know how much of the exposition that were left on the cutting room floor, or were never filmed, because of stuff like pacing, etc.

It´s allowed to have things be ambiguous for the audience to figure out for themselves, as long as nothing in the movie goes against any rational explaination for it. When something isn´t explained, it´s ambiguous. But i guess David Lynch movies wouldn´t be for you then? A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Let me break this specific gap in the movie down, to see if it´s actually a plot hole or just ambiguous.

What we know:
- You need pym particles and a time-space GPS to travel through the quantum realm. Thanos got access to both.
- Thanos is the most powerful being in the universe, it stands to reason he would be able to reverse engineer pym particles and a time-space GPS (Not invent them necessarily)

What we don´t know:
- If Thanos actually reversed engineered them, although that is the only explaination that make sense.
- What the quantum suits are needed for. But going by what has been said on other MCU movies, it´s probably needed for mortals to shrink, without going insane, like Darren Cross did in Ant-Man. Thanos and his minions are pretty insane already.
- What exactly the quamtum tunnel is needed for. In Ant-Man, Lang and Janet Van Dyne are able to travel to the quantum realm without a quantum tunnel. In Endgame, Steve and Tony are able to travel to the 70´s without a quantum tunnel.

In Ant-Man and the Wasp, Hank Pym creates the quantum tunnel and the quantum suits. Probably to make it more safe to travel through the quantum realm somehow. But their exact purpose is never explained, since it, by that time, has already been established that it´s possible to travel through the quantum realm without any of them. However Lang doesn´t remember anything from his stay there, so the quantum suits are probably to make sure you have more mental control while in the quantum realm, so you can better navigate it while there. Thanos doesn´t need to navigate it while he is in there, since 2014 Nebula is already located at his end-destination. All he need is to set the GPS for whatever coordinates, Nebula has sent to him.

With this, it´s pretty easy to connect the dots yourself imo. However since it´s never explained what exactly the quantum tunnel and suits are needed for, exactly i wouldn´t put those as proof of a plot hole in this case. But the "What we know" part, are the established rules of the story´s plot, and nothing that happens here really goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or can be considered as illogical or impossible events, or contradict earlier events in the storyline, since a lot of this stuff is never really explained or established in the movie. Therefore, its more ambiguous than an actual plot hole.

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

I'm not a fan of directors coming up with things after the fact either, but the movie was already three hours long. If a scene like that was filmed, I could see it being cut for something more important.

Some of the things that people consider plot holes can also just be figured out if you put a little bit of thought into them.

True plot holes is when a movie sets rules for itself, but then breaks those rules and it can't be explained. So even if it's explained after the fact, it still makes sense within the world they've built.

[–] Jokerzreality (9) 5 years ago

The Russo's has already confirmed that Thanos reverse engineered the pym particles. He probably did the same with the gps.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

? Why so complicated? Just give the reality stone a twist and there you go!

[–] alienzen (1929) 5 years ago

Thanos did not have the reality stone.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Well then, since the Russo's already confirmed that Thanos reverse engineered the pym particles, it must have been that!

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

If I'm thinkinf correctly in an interview the Russos said that when Thanos got a hold of present day Nebula, he was able to replicate the particles to a quantity that allowed his whole army to use them, due to the technology he has at his disposal. Another reason his whole army didn't need the suits.

Regarding the GPS, none of the Avengers needed it to travel to present day. They only needed it to find their way back into the past which is where Thanos found present day Nebula without having returned to the present yet.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

He used the plot stone