http://fortune.com/2017/10/10/star-wars-the-last-jedi-pre-sale-tickets-fandango/
Yeah the movie is probably going to be quite a hit. Contrary to what many haters love to constantly claim, TLJ is not slinking along after a disappointing Ep 7. This movie is in fact following a huge hit that got great reviews.
I've never had a harder time getting tickets for a starwars opening in 40 years!!! That includes...2 days camping for TPM tickets, two time winner of trivia matches to score special engagement screening of AOTC and ROTS, overnight camp out for ROTJ and the hardest...talking my mom into letting me skip school to attend its premiere in 77! The Force is strong with this one I think!
shareThis is good news. I hope it has a successful opening!
shareNumber of sales is in no way a reflection of quality, especially prior to the films release. Fast and Furious and Transformers always do incredibly well at the box office and have huge openings. Star Wars is an even more beloved series so obviously it will sell well. That proves nothing about quality of this film nor of the quality of TFA. Fast and Furious 7 followed 5 terrible movies and 1 mediocre original and yet it still smashed the box offices. That mean Fast 5 and 6 were great films and not deserving any criticism?
Also don't lump all the 'haters' together. Some of us are just critical of what we saw as a bad quality film in TFA and Rogue One and actually hope the quality gets better. That won't ever happen if the poor quality continues to sell.
Would be relevant if the OP wasn't aimed at the confident forecasts of disappointing numbers for TLJ in the wake of the complaints that some people had about TFA/Disney/Kennedy/....etc
shareAh, I think that is just wishful thinking. No way to know the numbers until the sales are out. I happen to suspect that TLJ will be nearly as financially successful as TFA. and I do not think the series will ever not make money. I find it likely to be a lost cause especially since a majority of the audience is seemingly Okay with poor quality writing. So in the future I may just think of star wars as a crappy series just like Fast and furious. I never comment on that series because I don't care about it. I am just about there with Star wars now.
shareIn other words, you didn't like TFA and you're resentful of other people's reception of it because you like Star Wars usually. And you don't care about FF but you have analysed it enough to make direct comparison with TFA. Sure.
shareNo those are your made up words and in no way a reflection of mine.
I did not like the prequels either but was never resentful of other's liking it. Because usually they would admit the weaker parts of the series but admit the good out weighed the bad for them. TFA defenders seemiingly try to write off all criticism; which is annoying.
"And you don't care about FF but you have analysed it enough to make direct comparison with TFA. Sure."
how can we have a pleasant disagreement when you are already being incredible condescending? I have watched FF series films and find them all to be rather poor quality. Star Wars the OT I have watched multiple times and see it as very good quality. PT is poor to mediocre. TFA is god awful, as I see it. I am comparing the too series in terms of lazy writing but still being highly successful franchise films. In the case of FF it seems that people do not care about the writing of story or character but they get the spectral of cars, explosion and etc. Like they are craving mindlessness in the story. I see TFA and Rogue One being similar in the story writing so I make the comparison.
No, criticism isn't being written off here. It's the torture logic of thise chinese fingercuffs type of criticism that is being written off. The OP is directed at the forecasts for box-office disappointment due to TFA being "god awful" as you put it. As if stating "god awful - poor quality" amounts criticism that deserves acknowledgment.
The main reason TFA became the highest grossing Star Wars film is because it is critically well received and very well received by the overwhelming majority of fans. Box office success isn't necessarily dependent on high standards of quality, but there is no evidence people went over and over again and that critics praised the film because of or in spite of poor writing. I didn't like the prequels either but I didn't put the success of those films down to an in built Star Wars audience that doesn't understand quality. It's not a terribly civilised or mature conceit that people with the same goodwill for a movie series as yourself don't recognise or care about quality as you do and therefore the successful reception of a movie is purely in spite of the objective truth of a movie being "god awful" (usually defined by specious and spurious terms) . We can take that all the way back to 1977 and make a spurious, pseudo-intellectual cases for how that movie is god awful and doesn't deserve half the success it enjoyed, etc, etc. It contrives to distill the truth of whether a film is any good or not down to discounting the general critical reception and the popular reaction outright and proposing that a movie as god awful as a very small few of commentators since theirs is the only opinion not tainted by those previous two factors.
The fact is that The Last Jedi would be a relative disappointment at the BO if The Force Awakens was as god awful as a tiny amount of people keep repeating to others who haven't changed their mind over the past two years.
I don't have the patience at this time to go this route, I am tired and have a head cold. But the point I was trying to make was that ticket sales is not a reflection of quality and movies can sell a lot of tickets and have repeat viewing just for the popularity of the brand alone. Case in point is TPM is nearly as successful in terms of ticket sales to TFA, about a 18 million difference with TFA getting the win. People like me, as I see it want the disney era star wars to take a hit in the financial success so that the quality of the writing will improve. Part of the problem is a refusal by many to apply any kind of objective view of film claiming it is all up to the individual. problem with that is many people (if not most) will go with the flow of their peers. There has to be some kind of objective quality to judging art otherwise I could piss on a white sheet of paper and claim it is as good as 'The Last Super'.
I will say this in response to your suggestion that a "pseudo-intellectual" case could be made for ANH being poorly written when comparing it to the scrutiny TFA received: I have not even seen a "pseudo-intellectual" defense of the quality of the film. It is all arguments such as this (financial success) or ad hominem attacks against the critic or an attempt to attack the originals. These are all none arguments in terms of the criticism of the quality of the film itself. Basically you TFA defenders don't even offer an argument to support your view of TFA being a good and worthy sequel, but just try to tear down those that did not like it or tear down the originals.
The point of this thread was a response to the repeated claims that the TLJ ticket sales will reflect the "poor quality" of TFA.
You don't challenge the people making those forecasts in those threads. So I guess "tearing down" anyone with an optimistic attitude towards the overwhelmingly positive response to the previous movie is more important than challenging that perverse logic of poor quality of TFA, which is nowhere near a significant consensus, will mean financial disappointment.
Essentially you're saying, you, like a small minority of others, didn't like it so everyone and everything that indicates a different opinion from yours is wrong or unable to see poor quality or speak up about it.
It requires actual criticism to exist before it can be torn down. I don't see any criticism here to tear down. Just saying you've professed some objective truth by stating it's god awful and poor quality doesn't make it so. An objective truth can be proved. If you can prove that there is level of quality that others refuse to acknowledge then maybe you'd be in the majority, rather than the minority.. And I don't mean ticket sales.
I didn't see those other threads. I just happened across this one because it was fresh. Also the OP is someone that makes alot of ridiculous defenses for TFA in other threads so this thread was related similarly. Basically the OP was trying suggest or boost that ticket sales for TLJ are going to be good, therefore the "haters" are wrong about everything including all the TFA criticism. This was implied not stated.
I don't care if people like these new disney era Star Wars so much, as I said the way it is going I likely will not be a star wars fan much longer and treat Star Wars like I do Fast and Furious. What is bothering me is the blindness to the obvious objective bad writing that TFA had. People don't make excuses for FAst and Furious's bad writing, they like it in spite of it. If that was the case for Star Wars I wouldn't say anything. Again I have seen not a single reasonable defense of this film and yet the critics regularly get attacked at the criticisms.
"I don't care if people like these new disney era Star Wars so much.."Yes you do. You just said that you hope it disappoints financially, meaning that you need fewer people need to like these Star Wars films in order for your expectations to be met by possible future ones.
"....blindness to the obvious objective bad writing that TFA had.."
Obvious, objective truths are proven, easily. But no attempt is made here to offer a morsel of constructive criticism that would do that.
"Objective truths are proven, easily. But no attempt is made here to offer a morsel of constructive criticism that would do that."
Are we really going to have to go all the way back almost 2 years now and re go over all the writing problems TFA had. They have been well stated hundreds if not thousands of times, and I would have thought on a discussion board such as this it would be common knowledge.
Do I really need to break down each scene a show how it is a poor/weak imitation of ANH or ESB, down to the visuals themselves?
Do I really need to go over the structure of the narrative and plot being unfocused and switching back and forth?
Do I really need to break down the characters of Finn and Rey yet again and discuss why they do not behave in accordance with their given background and also why how Rey is overpowered without any reason.
Do I really need to discuss the sloppiness both of the tone of scenes and the overall writing choices. For example the tone of the scene between Poe and Kylo is just all over the place "who talks first, you talk first, I talk first?" or the fact that Poe disappears and suddenly reappears half way through the film. Or how about the clunky and botched way they revieled Han and Kylo's relationship.
Jesus this could go on for awhile and I would run out of space. Do you really want to do this? Break down each one of my criticism on the film and see if you can come up with a good defense? A lot of it would be repeated from the last 2 years of discussions.
So then it's too hard to prove objectively, again. Not really an obvious objective truth then, is it.
shareThis has to be one of the stupidest things i have ever heard. So only something simply provable can be objectively true? God I hope you never pursue and career in science, economics or any other useful subject. Walmart janitor, that'd be the career for you.
shareIf it's so obvious then it's no hardship to point out an objective truth. There's nothing stupid about it at all.
The fact that it's easier for you to make insults instead says it all.
Actually objective truth is far harder to point out than subjective truth. it requires facts statistics, repeatable results, and many other objective criteria. Taking an entire film and trying to break down why it is objectively poor requires effort. To suggest otherwise means you are viewing this in a lazy manner and not willing to put forth the effort to think about it outside you already assumed ideology.
I will follow this up with one example...
Obvious objective truths. You say that it is obvious that it's objectively bad. T
You are immediately screwed when you suggest it's difficult to explain and difficult for others to see.
There's no such thing as proving a subjective truth. All you can do is try to establish where and how the subjective lines are drawn.
it should be obvious that it is objectively bad. the fact so many people such as yourself are either being accidentally or purposeful dense about it is tiresome.
the fact that I and others have to constantly point out the obvious truth is frustrating. It is like you have one group that can read and the other cannot but thinks they can and you are trying to explain they don't know what the word look like when written. Try proving an obvious objective truth like that in simple terms. if you can I will relent and say you are right.
But it isn't obviously bad. If that were the objective truth then it would be obvious to most if not all and not to a few.
Tell me how you would prove the obvious objective truth that someone that does not know how to read but thinks they can?
shareWell in that rather unlikely situation (a person that can't read defending the quality of a written work????), you would need to prove that the person doesn't know how to read in spite of what they claim first. And I wouldn't bother trying to prove anything to anyone who maintains they can read after it's proven otherwise.
But how would you prove it to them? It is an obvious truth right? what would you say or do to explain it?
shareGive someone written instructions to carry out and if they can't carry them out to the letter then you've proved they cannot read, at least not to the standard required to.
That's one way to prove it. There are others, of course.
Even a person who can't read can tell if two examples are a carbon copy or near enough of each other.
Incorrect if they read it a perform the instructions they think it says they can try to claim that you are lying or that you are actually the one that doesn't know how to read/write. All you proved is you and the other person do not read the same.
But you are missing the point. Even this objective truth is hard to 'prove' in only a few words. Funny thing is the longer you go on the more you prove my point.
Now try applying principle that to an objective truth that TFA was poorly written in story quality, it would take a lot of words to prove the obvious.
Not if there is an assured outcome from properly executing the instructions to the letter. And the instructions are independent of either party.
Are we talking about proving that people are dishonest or people don't realise they haven't the ability by the way?
I am going to leave now so I will give you the answer. You have to teach the person how to read from scratch starting with the ABC and moving up through grammar roles and word structure. So it might be simple but would take a long time to explain. That is why your whole point about obvious truth being simple to prove is flat out wrong as even something as simple as proving the truth that a person that is wrong about reading wouldn't be easy and short to explain.
shareSo why don't we just take 1 aspect of the film that was objectively bad and give reasons why. Story/overall Plot: The plot for TFA is bad for many reasons. First it is structurally problematic and in many ways goes for beyond just calling back to nostalgia to a near copy and paste of the original story. In structure it is incoherent in that it tone shifts mid way through the film. It starts out all about the search for Luke skywalker. Than mid way through the film we are introduced to a new secondary plot of Starkiller, which then shift in tone to being the main plot and the main plot of finding Luke becomes secondary. In addition to that the manner in which the main struggle of First order vs resistence is never made clear. The nature of the order and the nature of the new republic is never explored and therefore the audience is given no context.
Now on to the manner in which it is a near carbon copy of ANH with some elements of ESB thrown in:
Film starts out with Order/Empire attacking a much smaller group Main Bad kills leader of the group and takes a main character is captured (Poe/Leia) but not before hiding vital information is a droid which escapes unto/into a desert planet.
On desert planet a young talented individual find the droid and gets pulled into an adventure off world escaping on the order/empire in the millenium falcoln.
Captured individual is set broken out by a person in a storm trooper armor.
young talented individual meets an older mentor and is told about the force.
there is a presents of a ultimate destructive weapon that needs to have the shields lowered so an attack can be mounted.
Mentor that has previous relationship with main bad is killed by main bad.
trench run conducted and destroys ultimate weapon.
Ah this is getting stupid. I think you already know all this and are trolling me for the sake of it. I am going on to better things.
Sales numbers do not reflect the quality of the upcoming film...this is very true! It does however support the argument that the force awakens was well received...not by starwars fans alone...but by millions of passive veiweres as well... Liars may figure...but figures never lie...TFA was a smash hit of epic proportions...and it seems as though a lion share of the original veiweres have signed up for the continuation of what is sure to be a fun ride!!!
shareJust because something is a "smash hit" does not mean it deserves to be. Comparing it to Fast and Furious and Transformers, neither of which deserve to be highly profitable films. It is a reflection of the audience more than anything else.
I am not one of those 'haters' that tries to deny that TFA was not an incredibly well marketed and successful product. I am more a critic of an audience that simply is ignoring the story quality of the film.
Oh don't be modest...you are exactly one of those haters...and a few others to boot! I assume it's all those rodent feces that destroyed your childhood😉
As fas as a smash hit not deserving it...where you live? I live in the United States where MONEY talks and bullshit walks...where if you earn it...you deserve it...stop talkin that pinko nonsense!
An audience critic...funniest made up tripe since sandwich artist! Hillbillys might want to be called sons of the soil...but...
Well this seems to be quite an over reaction and mildly inappropriate.
"I live in the United States where MONEY talks and bullshit walks...where if you earn it...you deserve it...stop talkin that pinko nonsense!"
What do you mean by "earn it" because in the US quite a few people live off welfare and subsidies. would you say all of them deserve it?
Let me ask you this do you think TFA was every bit as quality film, at least story wise, as ANH?
"An audience critic...funniest made up tripe since sandwich artist! Hillbillys might want to be called sons of the soil...but..."
this statement is nothing but hyperbole.
Really...I was shooting for quite inappropriate and a mild overreaction...damn!
Did any of them earn it?
No hyperbole...I totally meant for you to take them literally!
Sure...ANH doesn't set the bar too high. Had you asked about Empire...
"Did any of them earn it?"
Why answer a question with another question? incapable of being specific?
"Sure...ANH doesn't set the bar too high. Had you asked about Empire..."
This doesn't make sense based on my question. I was asking for your opinion of the quality of story of ANH vs TFA, not for the audiences' expectations. FYI my expectation of TFA were about as low as could be and yet still it managed to be far below my expectation. It was like literally not only did they include all the worst things I imagined but also came up with stuff worse than my worst imaginations.
You asked the questions pal...I'll hold your hand and walk you through the answers...
I answered your question with your question...you asked if they deserve it after posing the question of what I meant by earn it...do they deserve it...I don't know mr dummy...did they earn it?
Oh this next one is a gem...your reading comprehension is all fucked up...your question...
Let me ask you this do you think TFA was every bit as quality film, at least story wise, as ANH?
My answer...
Sure...ANH doesn't set the bar too high. Had you asked about Empire..." Where is audience expectation mentioned? My answer directly corresponds to your question.
You really are an obtuse person...that must be why you troll all day...did the mouse do...other things to you??? Secret...naughty...scary thing? I only ask because your obsession with trashing Star Wars seems unhealthy. We've all disliked movies...but the lengths you go to voice your opinion is...maniacal and very much like the behavior of a stalker. What was your relationship with your mother like?
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Number of sales is in no way a reflection of quality
Did I ever even imply that? Nope. In fact I stated points that are completely unrelated to this.
You definitely suffer from that "protesting too much" disease. Around here we call that what it is: A crusade.
Also, I said "many haters," not "all haters."
This is not so much a crusade against the new star wars. More like a hope that if enough people criticize the poor quality and the sales decrease as a result then the film makers will put more effort into story and quality. Honestly can you try to claim that the story in TFA was not horridly inferior to the story of the first 2 original films? Why not pressure the study to deliver that level quality? Why be okay with mediocre at best quality?
shareI am not entirely sure why anyone would believe regardless of quality of TFA that TLJ would not make huge money.
People blast the PT all the time but each film opened a little better than the previous and they all made huge amounts of money. Attack of the Clones which I believe many consider to be the worst of the lot made around 470 mil in adj domestic gross.
It's good to see that someone is going to the theater. This year has been awful for attendance.
shareYeah, seriously. I have been to the theater many times this year, mostly for big movies within their first two weeks, but I haven't seen many other people attending any of them. I see them on the weekends, too, but no crowds (and this is Los Angeles).
shareThe Force Awakens and Rogue One also crashed Fandango and other ticket sites.
I'm glad I live in a small town though. I don't have to worry about buying my ticket online and beating everyone else and battling with millions or a few hundred thousand people.
I got my ticket already for Thursday night (December 14th) at 7pm EST. I didn't have to buy it online. On October 10th, I just simply walked up into the movie theater in my town and got my ticket. Most of the VIP for the showing was already wiped out and taken, but I was able to still get a ticket.
So far the 7pm Thursday night showing is the only one close to being sold opening weekend. With it being such a small town, everyone won't be rushing to get their tickets until around Thanksgiving or maybe the first week in December.
Also, it's about $3-5 cheaper to just go to the movie theater and get the tickets than buy online.
Oh and for those curious, the town I live in has a population of around 10,000. Actually it's the biggest town in a 50-mile radius and part of that 10,000 includes all the smaller towns in a 50-mile radius. That is still a lot, I guess, but you can still wait until the last minute (or a week or two before the movie comes out) to buy tickets.
Actually, this is the first time that the movie theater in my town has started selling tickets this early. With The Force Awakens and Rogue one, tickets didn't start going on sale until AFTER Thanksgiving. I remember TFA tickets went on sale October 2015, but I had to wait until around Thanksgiving for the movie theater in my town to start selling them.
I got another fun fact about the movie theater in my town. Only Star Wars related movies start selling tickets about a month before the movie comes out. Every other movie you have to wait until about a week before the movie comes out or the Monday before the movie comes. Not with Star Wars though. You can get them a month before the movie comes out. Thor and Justice League aren't available yet.
What is success for TLJ? Its a given it will earn lots of money, I went back a few days even the one post I found dedicated to its poorer box office doesn't really say it wont make money.
If the film comes out and doesn't do as well as TFA..success or failure? In this age sequels are generally expected to outperform the previous film if its a successful franchise. But in a Star Wars film even a poor performance is still an excellent performance.