MovieChat Forums > Play It Again, Sam (1972) Discussion > Bogart's Motto In This Film

Bogart's Motto In This Film


"I've never saw a dame who didn't understand a good slap in the mouth or a slug from a .45."

I think we'll be waiting a long time for the remake....

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That kind of thing would be easy enough to exorcise from a re-make's script (not that you'd have to - it's clearly a comic exaggeration making fun of the old movies' "tough guy" treatment of "dames").

The big reason we won't see the remake is probably more likely to be connected to cancel culture's anti-Woody rage.

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That kind of thing would be easy enough to exorcise from a re-make's script (not that you'd have to - it's clearly a comic exaggeration making fun of the old movies' "tough guy" treatment of "dames").

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Yes. I think Woody was having some fun with his "fantasy" of Bogart -- the real Bogart in his actual movies was very noble towards and respectful of women -- even the killer dame he had to send away in "The Maltese Falcon."

Still, it made for a funny contrast with Woody's "actual persona" in the film.

...and: I don't think the line would be as welcome for its exaggeration today.

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The big reason we won't see the remake is probably more likely to be connected to cancel culture's anti-Woody rage.

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You raise an interesting point. "Once upon a time" (the 70s), Woody Allen was all the rage, a big movie star in front of the camera as well as a beloved writer-director. Now I'm not sure his movies are much shown anymore(on cable/streaming); and exactly who could you remake them WITH?

They are lost to the sands of time, a memory of a happier role for Woody in our lives.

I"d say "just like Bill Cosby's comedy albums" but I must admit -- while Bill seems to have been proven guilty of his misdeeds, the Woody story remains uncharged...

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Mostly, yes, Bogey was a rough sort of gentleman in his films, but a gentleman after all. Well, that did depend on the movie. He's courteous enough in The Maltese Falcon and Casablanca (when they're on his good side) but less-so in The Desperate Hours. He's kinda both gentleman and barbarian in In a Lonely Place.

And, yes, Woody's definitely having fun with it. The contrast is brilliant. Woody playing Bogart. Two personnae in conflict for our amusement.

You're dead-right: the line wouldn't be welcome. I didn't phrase that right. I should have said that it shouldn't need exorcism or excuse, but satire and perspective aren't in vogue.

Woody is similar to 99% of stars: they fade. But in Woody's case, he kept making movies. I think the oddity here is that Woody continued to be revered for a long time after his heyday. Annie Hall was his peek fame, although he continued to generally do well through the 80s. By the 90s, critics and audiences said he was washed up - that's the rhetoric - but he did make enough scratch to justify the Oscar noms. Those "in the know" continued to dig his material, and recognize his brilliance. Come on, just the *premise* of Small Time Crooks is funny.

He had a minor renaissance or two with Match Point, Midnight in Paris, and Blue Jasmine; those movies all made good dough (for Woody) and got great reviews. but that was the end of it. #metoo came up.

It's a VERY different situation from Bill Cosby. I doubted Cosby's guilt with the first accusation, but once his accusers numbered literally in the dozens, I was pretty much sold on his not being as much "America's Dad" as he appeared. Woody only has one accuser. That's not enough smoke for there to definitively be a fire. Have you ever heard of somebody who indulged their sexual appetites once?

I'm on team Woody, for now, barring the release of other facts. If you have the time (2 1/2 hours!) this video does an excellent job of breaking down the history, accusations, refutations, and reasons for Allen's innocence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muyaCg2dGAk&t=6626s

It's a compelling argument.

If you don't have the time, I'll sum up: it's possible/likely/probably/almost certain that Mia invented the story as revenge for Woody and Soon-Yi. Dylan grew up with this, and so she was brainwashed (possibly lying, although I personally lean towards brainwashed), and a LOT of this has to do with timing, consistency, frequency of events, and Moses Farrow's counter-testimonies.

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The quote I remember from that movie is "Looking good is their (women's) job, not yours" ( When Woody is primping himself in a mirror)

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The quote I remember from that movie is "Looking good is their (women's) job, not yours" ( When Woody is primping himself in a mirror)

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Yes...a bit warmer of a line from "fantasy Bogart."

Woody struck a nerve with that story that resonates to this day. Exactly what kind of a man DO women want? Alpha? Sensitive? Callous? Kindly?


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That's a question that will plague men until the end of time. Or, at least until fertility-capable sex-bots are invented. Then the question to plague men will be, "How do I learn C+++ well enough to know what a fertility-capable sex-bot wants?"

Woody's story is its own refutation, isn't it? The women don't want Humphrey Bogart, they want Allan Felix. And the best way to find a good mate who loves you isn't to mimic another person - tough or sensitive - but to be who you truly are.

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That's a question that will plague men until the end of time.

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"What do women want?"

"I don't care." -- John Slattery as Roger Sterling on Mad Men.

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Or, at least until fertility-capable sex-bots are invented.

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Ha. No...the "human element" remains necessary as far as I'm concerned.

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Then the question to plague men will be, "How do I learn C+++ well enough to know what a fertility-capable sex-bot wants?"

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Ha again. I am of a fairly "old age" now (though not THAT old), and thus old enough to remember any number of attempts to find out exactly what some particular women wanted. Its a great quest, with great rewards and great pain. Woody got some of that in "Play it Again, Sam."

"Play it Again, Sam" was rather an outlier in Woody's big 70's period. The movies around it -- "Bananas," "Love and Death" and "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex" were scattershot satire-spoofs, rather like Mad Magazine parodies, but "Play It Again, Sam" positioned Woody as a kind of "real guy" with real relationship issues. The tale transposed Allen's own Broadway play, which kept it rather "set-bound," but the film offered an early glimpse of the humanity that Annie Hall would bring to the Allen universe.

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Woody's story is its own refutation, isn't it? The women don't want Humphrey Bogart, they want Allan Felix. And the best way to find a good mate who loves you isn't to mimic another person - tough or sensitive - but to be who you truly are.

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Yep. This was a great date movie, with a bittersweet ending but something really true to say about men and women and romance.

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But this: I loved how the movie opened with Woody's wife announcing her divorce and telling him why: "You're not as exciting as when we first met." Woody replies something like "But that was at the beginning of the courtship. If I'd tried to keep that energy level up, I'd have had a heart attack."

And this: I can still hear the audience howling all through Woody's attempts to get ready for his first blind date after divorce(a hair dryer almost knocks him through a wall) and during the blind date (that record album goes flying out of the cover even as Woody stumbles around in a slapstick manner.)

A man trying to be cool for a woman on a first date -- with their couple-friends present(increases the humiliation), and the fact that this man is trying to date after divorce.

It struck a nerve. And made us laugh.

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I'm on team Woody, for now, barring the release of other facts. If you have the time (2 1/2 hours!) this video does an excellent job of breaking down the history, accusations, refutations, and reasons for Allen's innocence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muyaCg2dGAk&t=6626s

It's a compelling argument.

If you don't have the time, I'll sum up: it's possible/likely/probably/almost certain that Mia invented the story as revenge for Woody and Soon-Yi. Dylan grew up with this, and so she was brainwashed (possibly lying, although I personally lean towards brainwashed), and a LOT of this has to do with timing, consistency, frequency of events, and Moses Farrow's counter-testimonies.

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I'm kind of "in" on all of this analysis. Its a classic case of Woody digging his own grave with his own actions (Soon-Yi), but that is the danger of male-female relationships. Woody angered people by saying what everybody who has ever left someone for someone else has felt -- "The heart wants what it wants" -- and vengeance rained down upon him. Its a pretty screwed up group of people in that family .

Rather the same thing happened once Johnny Depp elected to marry that gorgeous, sexy va-va-voom Amber Heard. He seems to be the "bad actor" (drugs, drinking, behavior) but she was dangerous to marry from the get-go(and coming off a lesbian relationship -- what did Johnny expect?)

This is "gossip" but we lost two likeable movie stars to it -- Woody Allen and Johnny Depp. Pariahs now. Me, too is real even when it ISN'T real. Which we can never be sure of. Except for Harvey Weinstein.

Time to get the sex robots.

PS. I notice that the two leads in Allen's latest movie are Wallace Shawn and Gina Gershon. Respected names, to some extent, but not top level and hotter long ago....

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Mostly, yes, Bogey was a rough sort of gentleman in his films, but a gentleman after all. Well, that did depend on the movie. He's courteous enough in The Maltese Falcon and Casablanca (when they're on his good side) but less-so in The Desperate Hours. He's kinda both gentleman and barbarian in In a Lonely Place.

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I wrote too broadly in suggesting that Bogart ONLY played noble guys who treated women well. He's certainly a flat out villain in The Desperate Hours(you truly HATE him, WANT him to die) and I guess before his 40's heyday he was a similar hostage-taking villain in The Petrified Forest. Indeed, I'm not that familiar with his 30s roles, but as I recall reading, he played a lot of villains who got killed at the end.

Bogart is truly scary in In a Lonely Place -- hair-trigger quick to beat up men(even, nice, weakling men), menacing towards the one woman he truly comes to love -- this movie didn't USED to be on the list of Bogart greats, and I'm guessing its because he was such a borderline monster in it.

Bogart SEEMS to be the villain of The Caine Mutiny -- the tyrannical, paranoid, possibly mad captain of a Naval ship during WWII -- but he proves more pathetic than evil at the end. The REAL villain turns out to be someone else, and he is exposed.

So, yes-- there are a few straight out villains and a few rough characters on the Bogart resume...but he is probably most warmly remembered for his "tough soulful good guys" --- The Maltese Falcon, Casablanca, The Big Sleep, Key Largo....

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And maybe I'm nitpicking with that broad suggestion; your general point is well-taken: Bogey was mostly known for being a good guy - if a little rough around the edges.

I loved In a Lonely Place - it's a magnificent movie that runs strong comic moments (more near the beginning...) with dark drama/tragedy. Not many can pull that off. Plus it's a dynamite performance by Bogart.

I think he was underrated as an actor. People just see "Sam Spade" archetype stuff, but his work in The Caine Mutiny is so vulnerable. In Sabrina he's a comedy maestro.

Key Largo is particularly great because his character is playing games, too, and we can't be sure he's brave or a coward.

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Soon-Yi does make Woody look a lot guiltier on the other charge. My personal theory is that Mia considers his relationship with Soon-Yi paedophilia and incest (I disagree, but understand), but because it isn't legally either of those things she created a parallel fictitious crime to nail him with what she considers justice.

The Johnny Depp thing is crazy because he can't get exonerated even with an actual tape of him talking to Amber Heard about how she hit him. But he's still "the bad guy". Now, do I believe that Depp was capable of, and probably did, pretty horrible things, too? Yeah, I certainly do. That might even have been the opposite of a "no-fault" divorce (everybody's guilty!) But the fact that he's getting cancelled and she's getting ignored is quite damning of the movement.

And, yes, Weinstein is as clearly guilty as a man can be.

Time to get the sex robots until they start unionizing...

Allen's latest (Rifkin's Festival) is headlined by Wallace Shawn and Gina Gershon, yeah, but one year prior to Rifkin's was A Rainy Day in New York with Timothee Chalomet, who was/is a rising star. Before that was Wonder Wheel with Kate Winslet.

I do think his heyday is almost certainly over, of course, and I don't know how many more films he'll be "allowed" to make, but if he gets the funding, I'd bet that there will be celebs who still want in. Alec Baldwin (going through his own condemnations right now - perhaps more justly...) and Scarlett Johansson spring to mind, but I be there are others.

Maybe Johnny Depp?

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Roger Sterling had some of the best lines on that show. What a great character. He's like some kind of anti-boyscout where he isn't prepared and has no intention of doing good deeds today. Yet we love him. He's charming and horrid at the same time.

I agree. I think the human element will be important to a lot of people with sex and romance. Still, if you can imagine a Blade Runner-type replicant robot, how would you know? What would the difference be?

The quest of romance is a great one, and a hard one, as you say, and Woody did get at that with Play It Again, Sam. Of course, he's famous because of that, too, with Annie Hall, Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, et al. Most of my favourite Woody films are the ones that are funny and insightful about humanity (like PIA,S). Not all (I LOVE Match Point, and it's not funny at all).

It was certainly an outlier in his early stuff. All his early films, to me, kinda look like Woody wanted to be Groucho a little bit. They seem very close to Marx Bros comedies. That said, they often did have little points or deeper digs that he'd get in somewhere.

I like the bittersweet rom-com. It balances out the sugariness of the genre.

Have you read Woody's memoires? Apropos of Nothing? If you read the book and recall the part about his relationship with Louise Lasser, a lot of that stuff about his wife divorcing him because of excitement and his not being able to keep pace make tragic sense.

Stumbling around with the hair dryer - yes. Woody doesn't get enough credit for his physical comedy (mostly 'cause his cerebral stuff is so good we forget he really knows how to slip on a (giant) banana peel).

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Roger Sterling had some of the best lines on that show.

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As I watched the series(big fan), I felt that Roger had THE best lines on the show, but it turned out that Don and Bert Cooper and Peggy had great ones, too. Roger simply had the best CHARACTER, the guy who could "play around the edges" with one liners and attitude as the lead, Don Draper, had to wallow in a lotta angst between women and brilliant sales pitches.

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What a great character. He's like some kind of anti-boyscout where he isn't prepared and has no intention of doing good deeds today.

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Ha. Great point.

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Yet we love him. He's charming and horrid at the same time.

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Yes, somewhere between the lines and the actor (handsome but aging and a little weak looking) , we let Roger get away with a lot.

And he "humanized" Jon Hamm's too serious Don Draper by playing sidekick/comedy partner to him and making him look better.

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I agree. I think the human element will be important to a lot of people with sex and romance. Still, if you can imagine a Blade Runner-type replicant robot, how would you know? What would the difference be?

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Uh oh. How WOULD we know?(If not told)....I suppose the idea of a partner -- certainly for sex but perhaps also for companionship, that would NEVER trouble the relationship with human anger or judgment or belittlement or tears -- and no threat of costly divorce -- might be quite the "person" to have in one's life. And quite a few movies have taken this idea up -- as did a few "Twilight Zones" way back in the 60's.

And then we had the VERY dark "Stepford Wives" (the 1975 original), in which husbands had their flesh and blood wives murdered and replaced with sexbot versions...

On the other hand, I've rather found that we humans BECOME objects -- of a certain different sort than our "at work" or "with the family" personalities -- when having sex. If "the feeling is mutual," its fun to BE an object.
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The quest of romance is a great one, and a hard one, as you say, and Woody did get at that with Play It Again, Sam.

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It was a hit on Broadway and a pretty good hit at the movies.

Though Bogart and the one-liners were there (some quite ridiculous -- like the woman who announces she's a nymphomaniac but suddenly rejects Woody -- "What kind of woman do you think I am?"), there was also a pain known to folks in couples, married or not -- when it ends:

The divorce. The loss of one's "closest friend and confidant," and the uncertain quest to find another "perfect fit" from a series of blind dates that DON'T work. And the film found its own bittersweet ending and message about love.

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Of course, he's famous because of that, too, with Annie Hall, Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, et al.

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There's a lot of romance in Woody's work -- sometimes he loses the girl, but sometimes he gets her -- his final scene in Hannah and Her Sisters is a love story's perfect end. And he wrote some great lines about how hard life can be (and yet over too soon) and some very true lines about love.

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Most of my favourite Woody films are the ones that are funny and insightful about humanity (like PIA,S).

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I think as time has gone on, Play It Again Sam is still very much an "outlier" -- it comes before Annie Hall launches the "real" Woody Allen career(after what Woody called "the early funny ones") and feels at once a part of THAT era while still "funny, early Woody." Also it is set in San Francisco -- Woody would soon be "New York personified" before being exiled to Europe.

Not all (I LOVE Match Point, and it's not funny at all).

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Haven't seen Match Point. I need to. I stuck with Woody pretty much through the 90's and then drifted away -- before the scandal, I think. He just made too many movies, I couldn't keep up. But I'll try to see the key ones I missed.

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All his early films, to me, kinda look like Woody wanted to be Groucho a little bit. They seem very close to Marx Bros comedies. That said, they often did have little points or deeper digs that he'd get in somewhere.

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In the early 70's, Woody wrote an essay on Groucho that ended up in some book, and, I think, as liner notes to a comedy album cut by a very old, not very funny Groucho.

I recall that Woody found Groucho to be the greatest comic of his era because (paraphrased) " he could handle verbal one-liners and slapstick physical comedy with equal skill." Sounds rather like Woody back then, yes? Woody had all that great slapstick in Play it Again Sam, and then did Sleeper the next year and did a whole lot more(the film felt Keatonesque --Buster, not Diane, though she was in it.)

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I like the bittersweet rom-com. It balances out the sugariness of the genre.

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Woody could play it both ways. Hannah and Her Sisters has a very happy romantic ending for Woody. Annie Hall (famously) and Crimes and Misdemeanors, not so much. Play It Again Sam has...hope?

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Have you read Woody's memoires? Apropos of Nothing? If you read the book and recall the part about his relationship with Louise Lasser, a lot of that stuff about his wife divorcing him because of excitement and his not being able to keep pace make tragic sense.---

I have not read that book...dare I put it on my account and leave a record that I bought it? (hah.)

Sounds like he wrote the Play It Again Sam divorce plot from memory.

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Stumbling around with the hair dryer - yes. Woody doesn't get enough credit for his physical comedy (mostly 'cause his cerebral stuff is so good we forget he really knows how to slip on a (giant) banana peel).

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That giant banana peel...and so much else in Sleeper. BIG laughs. All to delightful fast-paced Dixieland jazz.

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And maybe I'm nitpicking with that broad suggestion; your general point is well-taken: Bogey was mostly known for being a good guy - if a little rough around the edges.

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Ah, but he played some villains. I suppose he played far more of them as a contract guy in the 30s, and fewer of them after Casablanca.

The Desperate Hours guy was pretty horrible -- we saw glimpses of his potential humanity (and he had a younger brother to protect) -- but he was really bad stuff for 1955 America. (Interesting: Spencer Tracy was to play the heroic hostage father, but it fell apart over billing; Fredric March came in, but we lost our Bogart/Tracy movie. Or our Tracy/Bogart movie.)



I loved In a Lonely Place - it's a magnificent movie that runs strong comic moments (more near the beginning...) with dark drama/tragedy. Not many can pull that off. Plus it's a dynamite performance by Bogart.

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Its one of those movies from the 50's that plays like it could have been made in the SEVENTIES. If that makes sense. Its really modern. And it caught that "Hollywood as a company town" feel with the dreaded downside: a writer who isn't getting much work, too much time to DRINK.

And did Gloria Grahame have a delicate sexual sensibility or what? A "heartbreaking dame" with a great, wounded voice.

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I think he was underrated as an actor. People just see "Sam Spade" archetype stuff, but his work in The Caine Mutiny is so vulnerable. In Sabrina he's a comedy maestro.

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Yes. You could feel Captain Queeg's inner fear of his breakdown, his sad self-loathing. In Sabrina, he used his wit and his history to overcome the much more handsome William Holden with Audrey Hepburn(but then the waifish Audrey always did look better matched with older men.) This was on-screen. OFF screen, Hepburn had an affair with Holden and the two of them drew Bogart's envious anger -- he felt "ugly."


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Soon-Yi does make Woody look a lot guiltier on the other charge. My personal theory is that Mia considers his relationship with Soon-Yi paedophilia and incest (I disagree, but understand), but because it isn't legally either of those things she created a parallel fictitious crime to nail him with what she considers justice.

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That makes sense. The Soon-Yi thing can draw "tut tuts," but legally its OK. And has not Woody stayed married to this woman for the longest marriage(or relationship) of his life?

Hey...the problem with all this "me too" stuff is that one can never feel ENTIRELY sure of the facts. "He said/she said" is the order of the day....so often when I read of one of these scandals hitting , I'm like "Oh, well, THAT couple never should have gotten together -- now this will be hell on earth from now on...no clear ending will ever happen."

In other words, these celebrities should be REALLY careful who they fall in love with and marry.

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The Johnny Depp thing is crazy because he can't get exonerated even with an actual tape of him talking to Amber Heard about how she hit him. But he's still "the bad guy". Now, do I believe that Depp was capable of, and probably did, pretty horrible things, too? Yeah, I certainly do. That might even have been the opposite of a "no-fault" divorce (everybody's guilty!) But the fact that he's getting cancelled and she's getting ignored is quite damning of the movement.

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All agreed. As I note in my other post about the Woody Allen situation...some folks never should have gotten together in the first place.

I was a Johnny Depp fan from as early as Edward Scissorhands, and it solidified with Ed Wood and then went on from there. He felt like a REAL movie star to me, with a movie star's charisma and mystery. Only the first "Pirates" movie was any good, but they all made big money and I watched as he became this superrich superstar and -- I STILL liked him in other movies.

Including the movie with Amber Heard. And she WAS hot. And then I read they were getting married and I said to somebody: "Bad news." She was just coming off of a long lesbian relationship. I figured this would be one of those quickie divorce things, but I didn't bank on its ability to bring down his whole superstar career, just like that. When Depp was REMOVIED from that Harry Potter offshoot franchise...I knew it was over.




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I suppose Depp can come back like Mel Gibson has..."here" but not really a star anymore.

Too bad.

Here's something more weird with no scandal attached:

Bruce Willis has evidently decided to "cash in" his stardom of the 80's (Die Hard) and 90s(Pulp Fiction) by appearing in something like 10 movies a year that are made very cheaply for streaming and international release. They aren't REALLY movies; the stories are no good and Willis only has to show up for a few days of work(other, even LESSER actors take the other roles, usually with higher billing for Willis.)

This is rather unprecedented in movie history. Bruce Willis has given up on wanting to make "quality movies." All he wants to make is money from a product that isn't even REALLY movies. But he has a movie star name and a movie star past and...I guess it works. He may be getting richer off these non-movies than he did off of REAL movies.

I remember back in the early 70's when movie actors didn't have many places to work , a group of them -- James Stewart, Henry Fonda, Shirley MacLaine, Anthony Quinn -- all debuted in TV series and ALL of the series got lousy ratings and flopped. These "movie stars' could not compete against Archie Bunker and Mary Tyler Moore. They rather struggled on in lesser movies and sometimes hit paydirt -- On Golden Pond, Terms of Endearment. But as TV stars..nothing.

Perhaps Bruce Willis remembers those years for those stars. Better to convert himself into a "product" and make money that way. No embarrassment from a TV show that flops. He just ships non-entity movies into the TV marketplace and cashes checks.

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And, yes, Weinstein is as clearly guilty as a man can be.

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Yep. The stories were legion. And I SAW a video that a young movie business woman(not an actress) made while trying to pitch Weinstein on a project. She showed him images from her laptop but HAD THE LAPTOP CAMERA ON while she pitched. WE get the view FROM the laptop as Harvey keeps pawing and hitting on this woman all through the pitch. Uh...she kept pitching though, I guess she felt it was the price of the pawing to get the project...but she didn't.

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Time to get the sex robots until they start unionizing...

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It may be the only way out. As movies since time immemorial have shown us(the wonderful "Licorice Pizza" most recently)...part of romance is the man persisting(within reason) to get a date and the woman resisting..until success is had. If the answer is NO, the man must quit. But he might get a YES.

Well, how can men ask women out now if it could be misconstrued as harassment?

Good news: "Me too" or NOT, I think men who get the right signals from women...and women who SEND the right signals..can go right on through the "asking out" process without danger.

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Allen's latest (Rifkin's Festival) is headlined by Wallace Shawn and Gina Gershon, yeah, but one year prior to Rifkin's was A Rainy Day in New York with Timothee Chalomet, who was/is a rising star. Before that was Wonder Wheel with Kate Winslet.

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Oh? Well, then never mind. Chalomet is on the rise and Winslet is established. Its a tough call I suppose, to work with Woody, but if they are confident about their careers and the facts...why not?

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I do think his heyday is almost certainly over, of course, and I don't know how many more films he'll be "allowed" to make,

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Here is a question: what if Woody did NOT HAVE any scandals? Its pretty clear he has been able to work for decades past his original stardom.

I suppose he's like Hitchcock was near the end. A "brand name" still allowed to make small scale films until he couldn't any more. Woody makes a movie a year(or DID) though; Hitchcock slowed down at the end. Every three years. Every four years. Still, Hitch worked til he couldn't anymore. And then died.

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If he gets the funding, I'd bet that there will be celebs who still want in. Alec Baldwin (going through his own condemnations right now - perhaps more justly...)

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Baldwin was in Blue Jasmine...playing a horrible man (based on the psychotic "investor" who lost everybody's money, Bernie Madoff.) I suppose Wody might have him back -- but Baldwin's problem is much more distasteful to my mind, than the others. The courts will figure out everyone's legal culpability(and he definitely has some), but Baldwin's callous, self-promoting and delusional behavior in the wake of the tragedy projects the worst possible vision of "celebrity entitlement." Also, in Baldwin's case, he's coming off as a little nuts.

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and Scarlett Johansson spring to mind, but I be there are others.

Maybe Johnny Depp

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Ha. Maybe Johnny Depp. Woody would understand.

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All these scandals...the only thing that surprises me is how surprised people are. Really? You're outraged to "discover" that the casting couch scenario happens in Hollywood? Really?

It's too bad about Bruce Willis, 'cause the guy's got some serious charisma. I loved him in Glass, too (and Unbreakable).

Licorice Pizza's on my "watch" list.

That's another avenue of sex and courtship that people are pretending doesn't exist right now: "Go away," doesn't always mean "Go away". Sometimes it means, "Try harder".

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They should be careful, yeah, but you said what Woody said: The heart wants what it wants.

And, yeah, the proof is in the pudding. Allen's been married to Soon-Yi for a long time and he's been with her since the late '80s. I agree that the origin point of the relationship is bizarre, but they're doing something right.

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Bogey was the man.

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Woody clearly loved the early comic geniuses like Chaplin and Keaton, but especially the Brothers Marx. Oh, and that was a great joke about Buster/Diane!

I've always loved the variety Allen gets, even with all the flak he gets for making the same movie over and over. Which is...bizarre to me. Have they seen his films? The rom coms end differently (good or bad), but he also was an early pioneer in the mockumentary (Take the Money and Run at first, but later he added to that genre with Zelig), he did sci-fi comedy, he's done thrillers, dramas, musings on life, and magic-real romps with screen characters coming out of the movies. But it's the same picture? Come on.

I'd recommend Apropos of Nothing. It's well-written, has some good anecdotes, and many witty bon mots - some quite darkly cutting. The stuff about his family is heartbreaking, yet he still finds time for one or two jokes.

Not only did I order the book online, I did it through a local bookstore and then waited in line at a coffee shop just reading it in public. I figured, "I don't care".

Dixieland jazz! Yes! His soundtracks are all so wonderful. I love jazz and I love that I get to hear it in his movies.

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I, too, LOVE Mad Men. It's one of my top TV shows of all-time. Apparently John Slattery auditioned for Don before Roger. It's impossible to picture, but I think he could've pulled it off. I like seeing him in movies like Spotlight and The Adjustment Bureau.

Sex robots are an interesting concept because they are basically already here, just in a proto-form with those realistic sex dolls (Lars and the Real Girl). But as these things get more advanced, they'll get stigmatized, not (just) because of the "sad loser" vibe, but because they could be a serious threat to our social balance. I think women in particular will really resent them on a gut level.

You're right: sometimes it is fun to be an object, in that animal drive way. I think there's a dark(ish) side to sex that people don't want to admit to, especially in puritanical movements. They pretend there's no primal side to copulation, and I think they do themselves a great disservice as a result.

We're in total agreement on Woody's mastery of the relationship as film subject.

If you left him for awhile in the '90s, I'll recommend his "greatest hits" since then. Manhattan Murder Mystery is severely underrated. It's great fun. I kinda imagine it as an "alternate universe" where Alvy and Annie got together (even though they are very different characters). It keeps you guessing with the murder/thriller plot, but the REAL plot is about the marriage-on-the-ropes. Mighty Aphrodite ain't bad, either... In the 2000s, Match Point is one of my all-time favourite Woody films, or films in-general. Whatever Works is Larry David in a Woody Allen (come on, how can you go wrong?) and The Curse of the Jade Scorpion has been growing on me. It's more fun in black-and-white. Turn the colour on your TV off and it was shot so cleverly that it looks like it could've been a missing film from the '40s. Oh, and Antz isn't a "classic Woody" (he's just voicing a character) but it's fun. 2010s I almost can't recommend enough. Magic in the Moonlight, Blue Jasmine, To Rome with Love, and Midnight in Paris are all exceptional films, and I really dig Irrational Man, too.

I've never seen a Woody Allen picture that I didn't find worth watching, but those are some "late Woody" highlights. Oh, keep in mind I'm a big fan of his but even I have gaps in his filmography.

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But straight men still think this way, constantly comparing themselves to some ideal of masculinity that's as real as the Bogart of Woody Allen's imagination, and castigating themselves for failing to live up to an unrealistic ideal, an ideal that would be completely unappealing to the real woman in question if he'd ever been able to live up to his fantasies. This is a film that's a romantic comedy on the surface but is really about masculinity and unrealistic ideals at its core, and maybe it'd be due for a revival, if the people who are given to thinking seriously about masculinity and men's mental health didn't all despise Woody Allen now.

And no, I'm not a straight man, but the world is full of straight men, the rest of us have to get to know them and their thought process.

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But straight men still think this way, constantly comparing themselves to some ideal of masculinity that's as real as the Bogart of Woody Allen's imagination, and castigating themselves for failing to live up to an unrealistic ideal, an ideal that would be completely unappealing to the real woman in question if he'd ever been able to live up to his fantasies.

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As a straight man, I am always open to seeing this world (and a movie like Play It Again Sam) through the eyes of a gay man. That said, I cannot operate from any real insight in these matters. My life has been one of watching movies with an interest in male-female relationships and love stories. Hell, its hard to see these stories from the heterosexual WOMAN's viewpoint. I am what I am.

But clearly Woody Allen was "on to something" when he created the Bogart/Woody contrast for this piece, first on Broadway in 1969(the end of the sixties) and then at the movies in 1972 (the beginning of the 70s.)

Keep in mind that in the 60's, particularly in New York (America) and Paris(France)...Humphrey Bogart was evidently quite the cult figure to youth. His movies were all over TV and in revival houses. And Bogart had died in 1957. He perhaps was "out there" with James Dean (who died before him) , Marilyn Monore, and JFK as an "icon who died too soon" -- others wanted to keep Bogart alive through their cult.

I think Andrew Sarris wrote an entire essay on "The Bogart Cult," and Woody Allen seems to have latched onto this cult as the subject of a film about the masculine persona.

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This is a film that's a romantic comedy on the surface but is really about masculinity and unrealistic ideals at its core, and maybe it'd be due for a revival, if the people who are given to thinking seriously about masculinity and men's mental health didn't all despise Woody Allen now.

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You raise an interesting point. There's every reason that we SHOULD keep writing about "the work of Woody Allen," and Play It Again Sam could use a revival on Broadway OR at the movies. But has Woody "toxified" any ability to take his work up again?

I personally have, in my work life, moved through worlds that are "urban and non-physical" (Woody style) AND with some fairly tough working class men (who came to respect me even if I wasn't one of them. Well, I THINK they do. Who knows?) Its work related. I can tell you this: some of those tough working-class guys with muscles have really hot women in their lives. Its practically genetics. But the mild-mannered life is perhaps the one lived by more of us, gay or straight. As with Woody Allen himself, the mild-mannered man has to work a bit harder to attract women, but it can be done.

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And no, I'm not a straight man, but the world is full of straight men, the rest of us have to get to know them and their thought process.

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I'd say we ALL should get to know each other and try to understand thought processes.

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All these scandals...the only thing that surprises me is how surprised people are. Really? You're outraged to "discover" that the casting couch scenario happens in Hollywood? Really?

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Ha. You know, there is an internet gossip site called "Crazy Days and Nights," which, if it is to believed, posits that practically every actor, actress, rocker and rapper is cheating and doing drugs and having orgies and...well, its all quite ridiculous. True? I have no idea. The site provides "blind items" where stars are not named...but sometimes they are "blind items revealed." Also: ost of the blind items revealed aren't particularly major stars.

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It's too bad about Bruce Willis, 'cause the guy's got some serious charisma. I loved him in Glass, too (and Unbreakable).

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"Glass" was fairly recent, so I guess Willis CAN land roles in major studio productions still. And it was a sequel to Unbreakable, which was a pretty damn interesting meditation on what its like to be a "real" superhero. (That movie has one of my favorite lines, delivered by Samuel L. Jackson: "We live in mediocre times." True then, true now.)

But no, he seems to have devised this "late career plan" of selling his movie star brand name simply for cash, in movies that don't matter at all. I mean , they aren't REALLY real movies. Sad.

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Licorice Pizza's on my "watch" list.

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I really liked it. I've found that "some do, some don't." But I really did.

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That's another avenue of sex and courtship that people are pretending doesn't exist right now: "Go away," doesn't always mean "Go away". Sometimes it means, "Try harder".

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Weell...Licorice Pizza takes up this very topic. And its intoxicatingly nostalgic, if one has ever tried to get a date...or a soulmate...

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Woody clearly loved the early comic geniuses like Chaplin and Keaton, but especially the Brothers Marx. Oh, and that was a great joke about Buster/Diane!

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Thanks. We have to remember that when Woody was starting out(the 60s and 70s), Chaplin and Keaton were not all THAT long ago, and the Marx Brothers even closer in time. Chaplin and Groucho were alive in the 70's.

Though Woody was the "one-liner king" (stand-up set his course), Sleeper is very much an homge to Keaton and Chaplin, I think. Groucho came through in practically all of Woody's lines , but as Woody himself said, in movies like the historical comedy "Love and Death"...he stole his "act" from Bob Hope (in Hope's 40's movies only): the supposedly brave and fearless guy who suddenly crumples into cowardice the second trouble arrives.
Woody proved it...he showed clips on talk shows that showed his line readings in Love and Death were just like Bob Hope in something like "Casanova's Big Night."


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I've always loved the variety Allen gets, even with all the flak he gets for making the same movie over and over. Which is...bizarre to me. Have they seen his films?

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You got that right. I suppose from Annie Hall on, there was a recognizable "through line" of movies set in trendy Manhattan with intellectual neurotics of both sexes, but all along the way, Woody did different things in different places.

And of his early films, Play it Again Sam was filmed in San Francisco, Sleeper's futuristic society used California and Colorado locations, Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex had some California stuff, and Love and Death took Woody to Europe on location.

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The rom coms end differently (good or bad),

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He gets the girl. He loses the girl.

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but he also was an early pioneer in the mockumentary (Take the Money and Run at first

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With his hard to read bank robber's note: "I have a gub. Apt natural."

--, but later he added to that genre with Zelig),

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A great enough film at the time, but he also put a phrase into the vernacular -- if someone is a "Zelig" (or alternatively , a "Forrest Gump") they keep turning up at historical news events.

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he did sci-fi comedy, he's done thrillers, dramas, musings on life, and magic-real romps with screen characters coming out of the movies. But it's the same picture? Come on.

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There is always the broad stroke versus the reality.

By the way, I noted that I slowly gave up on seeing Woody Allen movies on a regular basis. But on the way to making that drop off, I had one rule for as long as I could: if Woody was IN it, then I would go. I still remembered the truly great movie star he had been in the 60s and 70s.

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I think people forget a few things about Woody Allen in his 70's heyday:

ONE: As Pauline Kael wrote, his character was NOT really a loser. He had the best jokes, he was smarter than the people around him (he made FUN of the other characters in movies like Bananas, Sleeper, and Love and Death.) And for a long time, he DID get the girl. Kael wrote "All young men of a certain age want to be Woody Allen." (Not Bogart?)

TWO: I've remarked that the American movies changed in 1968 with the coming of the R rating (not so much with the verboten X.) Well, Woody Allen came in with that rating -- his movies were very much about sex, which could now be talked about on the screen. But the thing of it was: I don't think any Woody Allen movies were R. He got it all done at PG level (which started as M, then GP, then PG and PG-13.)

In the 60's, before he "took hold," Woody was placed in "sex movies" like What's Up Pussycat and Casino Royale , lurking around the edges doing comedy as guys like Peter O'Toole and David Niven got the chicks. But he was THERE. Woody ended up in Playboy magazine a lot during this period, sometimes writing comedy pieces, but sometimes posing with a nude Playboy babe(the contrast was hilarious.)

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Even his "first movie"(which he only introduces, but wrote) called "What's Up Tiger Lily?" had sex jokes in the 60's. Voice artists dub comedy lines over a cheapjack Japanese spy thriller. Its pretty funny but I remember a scene where a naked woman takes off her towel (we see her only from behind):

Woman: Name three Presidents.
Man(looking at her in the towel): Washington, Jefferson...
Woman drops the towel, is naked facing him.
Man:...Lincoln?

Get it? Woody did. In the censored 60's. He really went to town in the 70s. Like when he had Howard Cosell sit by his bed to give "play by play commentary" on Woody's wedding night with Louise Lasser in Bananas. And who can forget that "sex ball" one holds in Sleeper? Or the orgasmatron?

And how about "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex But Were Afraid to Ask." Fuggedaboudit.

Plus, I can still remember the red hot French countess nymphomaniac who seduced Woody in "Love and Death." She wants him, its for real, they do it(off screen.) She asks him why he's so good in bed: "Well, I practice a lot by myself at home." Gorgeous woman in lingerie. Fun 70's memory. Ah but wait -- she's got a lover. He gets mad, demands a gun duel with Woody..there's always a catch.

Yes, Woody benefitted -- rather as Clint Eastwood did at the same time, I'm not kidding -- as the movies in the 70's became more R/PG raw and sexual (and in Clint's case, violent.) Clint and Woody were two 70s stars who FIT the 70s.

From Annie Hall on, I suppose you could say that Woody matured, went more for love than sex, and, of course, aged out of even being funny in sexual situations.

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I'd recommend Apropos of Nothing. It's well-written, has some good anecdotes, and many witty bon mots - some quite darkly cutting. The stuff about his family is heartbreaking, yet he still finds time for one or two jokes.

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Well, I'd like to read it. He has a decades-long story to tell.

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Not only did I order the book online, I did it through a local bookstore and then waited in line at a coffee shop just reading it in public. I figured, "I don't care".

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You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din!

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Dixieland jazz! Yes! His soundtracks are all so wonderful. I love jazz and I love that I get to hear it in his movies.

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I think Sleeper had his first "all Dixieland" score. And as we know, Woody himself chose to skip the Annie Hall Oscars to play in a Dixieland band in NYC (local bar) that night. He did FINALLY attend and speak at the Oscars in the wake of 9/11, to show off a bunch of clips of NYC. It was double edged: because of 9/11...Woody finally speaks at the Oscars. But it TOOK 9/11 to get Woody to the Oscars? That's some ego -- eh, who knows, he couldn't win.

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I, too, LOVE Mad Men. It's one of my top TV shows of all-time.

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So many great shows on cable during this "Peak TV" era. I came to Mad Men for the 60's nostalgia -- the Hitchcockian suspense of "knowing what the characters don't know" -- JFKs gonna get shot the day before the wedding of Roger's daughter! Vietnam is going to become a quagmire! Nixon IS going to be President. Etc.

But honestly, it was the great dialogue and the attendant fine acting that kept me around. Roger Sterling was the MAN.

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Apparently John Slattery auditioned for Don before Roger.

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As Slattery tells it: "I told the producers -- I'M the guy to play Don Draper. Then I saw Jon Hamm -- I told the producers HE's the guy to play Don Draper. What else do you have?"

Roger.

But you know, there is a clips package on YouTube about Robert Morse's Bert Cooper that shows that "old man" got a ton of knowledgeable , sage lines. Bert RAN that place, quietly and from up in his top floor Japanese-style perch.

Peggy got good lines too. It was a good show.

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--- It's impossible to picture, but I think he could've pulled it off.

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That white hair was hard to shake. It doesn't look that good dyed.

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I like seeing him in movies like Spotlight and The Adjustment Bureau.

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And I love Slattery's one scene early on in Charlie Wilson's War(2007) where he goes toe to toe with Philip Seymour Hoffman in yelling-at-the-top of their-lungs argument between two CIA guys -- one smooth(Slattery) one "coarse"(Hoffman.) Its about three minutes of pure hilarity. Also on YouTube.

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Sex robots are an interesting concept because they are basically already here, just in a proto-form with those realistic sex dolls (Lars and the Real Girl). But as these things get more advanced, they'll get stigmatized, not (just) because of the "sad loser" vibe, but because they could be a serious threat to our social balance. I think women in particular will really resent them on a gut level.

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An intriguing topic...a bit dangerous here.

I'll say these things.

Lars and the Real Girl was a touching, sad indie that took an impossible topic (Ryan Gosling's "belief" in a sex doll as his real girlfriend to be taken out to dinner with relatives) and made it work. At indie level. The point of that one (I think) is that Lars had little interest in the doll for sex -- she was his companion. And the community supported his delusion and figured out a way to cure him of it. Touching.

As for how real women might resent sex dolls...well, I guess they might. These items are made pretty exclusively for men, are they not? Of course, hookers and strippers are REAL women who objectify themselves for men and make money at it. But human emotion? In ANY of these contexts? Not there.

Speaking of artificial romance: the ladies sure seem to like their...toys. Who needs men?

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You're right: sometimes it is fun to be an object, in that animal drive way. I think there's a dark(ish) side to sex that people don't want to admit to, especially in puritanical movements. They pretend there's no primal side to copulation, and I think they do themselves a great disservice as a result.

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Bottom line: Oh, yes. Quite!

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We're in total agreement on Woody's mastery of the relationship as film subject.

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Yes. Somehow, some way, his personal life is going to have to be separated from his movies so as to get a sense of his real contributions to our movies and our lives.

An example on the "relationship" thing:

In Annie Hall, early on Woody and Diane Keaton go to a coastal vacation house and have a mix-up with a live lobster flipping all over the floor. The two laugh hard , its very natural and relaxed.

Later in the film, Woody has lost Diane and he takes a new woman(quite pretty) to the same coastal house and "stages" the same comedy with the lobster and -- the woman doesn't laugh at all. She's annoyed at Woody. She thinks its stupid.

Relationships are "as they come about." One doesn't transfer to the next it terms of what the partners enjoy together.

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If you left him for awhile in the '90s, I'll recommend his "greatest hits" since then.

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Thank you. I saw SOME of them, but not all of them.

It just became too taxing to keep up. A movie a year can (surprisingly) do that to one.

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. Magic in the Moonlight, Blue Jasmine, To Rome with Love, and Midnight in Paris are all exceptional films, and I really dig Irrational Man, too.

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I did see Blue Jasmine and Midnight in Paris(on cable, didn't go out) and the time travel element in Midnight in Paris (meet Hemingway! meet F. Scott!) was charming. I can't even remember those other titles coming OUT!

And I did see Small Time Crooks and I did love "Woody and May" in it.

I do remember seeing Shadows and Fog and laughing at one bit where Woody and some old guy are standing out at the edge of a fog shrouded alley (in black and white):

Man: Wait. Down in the alley, waiting for us, is an insane killer.
Woody: What do you want me to do? Weep?

Or something like that. I remember laughing hard at Woody's delivery of the line.

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I've never seen a Woody Allen picture that I didn't find worth watching, but those are some "late Woody" highlights. Oh, keep in mind I'm a big fan of his but even I have gaps in his filmography.

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Its a big filmography. I may seek others out -- are they on streaming? BTW, Larry David in a Woody movie WAS great, and I DID see that one.

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Oh ecarle... you know I like you and value your insights, but I've got to work for a living, you know?

Sometimes even on weekends.

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