MovieChat Forums > Shichinin no samurai (1956) Discussion > Seven Samurai vs. The Magnificent Seven ...

Seven Samurai vs. The Magnificent Seven (problems with the cultural transfer?)


If there is any criticism of The Magnificent Seven compared to Seven Samurai in regards to Mexicans and the (mostly) American gunslingers instead of peasants and samurai. is that it lacks the class and power structure dynamic. Samurai served feudal rulers, and were thus near the top of the social structure. Gunslingers, by contrast, were on the fringes of society even in the States, and had even less status in Mexico. The fear felt by the peasants for the samurai as well as the bandits in Seven Samurai has more resonance than the fear felt by the peasants for the gunslingers as well as the bandits in Magnificent Seven. In Japan, a samurai could legally kill a peasant for not showing deference, or indeed for any reason. I'm sure Gringo gunslingers did kill Mexican peasants on occasion, but it isn't nearly the same thing as the samurai, who frequently took supplies from the villagers during the many Civil Wars going on in Japan at that time. Again, I'm sure this was done to them once in a while by Gringo gunslingers, but not nearly to the same scale. They had much more to fear from bandits and their own government than they did from Gringos. To further complicate things, the bandits in Seven Samurai, or at least some of the leaders, could well have been former Samurai themselves who went rogue. Since this was a 1960, it was unlikely that they were going to seriously explore the historical between issues of America and Mexico, because that would involve critiquing to some extent the Mexican American War, Manifest Destiny, and Western Expansion. What we did get was a transposition from Japan to America that only partially fit culturally in the transfer, or at least wasn't as potent. The fact that the samurai were serving the top of the social structure WITHIN Japanese society, whereas gunslingers were on the bottom of the social stratum, were outsiders, and only serving themselves, takes away subtext but doesn't really replace it with anything equally powerful. If a Samurai were successful in battle, he served his lord and had a chance to improve his status and perhaps even become a lord himself. A gunslinger, no matter how successful, didn't really have that opportunity. The best he could hope for was to change his name and buy a plot of land somewhere, and hope the brother, father or son of one of his enemies, or the law, didn't catch up with him. The "mixed" character in Seven Samurai is a peasant pretending a samurai in order to improve his social status. The gunslingers in Magnificent Seven were outsiders in Mexico, double outsiders actually, since they were both Americans and outlaws. Becoming a gunslinger didn't offer the same advantages as becoming a samurai.

Another cultural transfer from Seven Samurai to Magnificent Seven that doesn't quite work is the knife-throwing Britt. In Seven Samurai, Kyuzo (played by Seiji Miyaguchi) is a master samurai. He isn't a different kind of samurai than the others, he is a SUPERIOR samurai than the others. He is the very embodiment of the samurai code, and has developed a level of skill in excess of all the other samurai. He is the perfect samurai. In the Magnificent Seven, Britt (played by James Coburn) we aren't told that he is the perfect gunslinger, what we see is a quirky and unique trait of fighting with a knife than a gun. We aren't told, for instance that he was so masterful with a gun that he gave them up because he wanted to prove he was better by being even faster with a knife despite the disadvantages. Why would a gunslinger in the Old West try to prove this while giving an advantage to their opponent? This seems to be vanity, because being faster with a knife is still putting yourself at a big disadvantage. It's likely such a person would not live long in the Old West. Even if the knife DID reach the target first, the opponent could easily squeeze of a shot before dying, if only as a muscle contraction. Therefore, it is more of a willful quirk on the part of Britt, and I doubt there is any historical basis for such a thing in the annals of the West, and thus, he lacks the resonance that the Kyuzo character had. And thus, the idolizing of Britt makes less sense in the American version.

reply

A very apt analysis.

reply

The Magnificent Seven was a decent remake but it couldn't match the excellence of Seven Samurai.

Akira Kurosawa was able to make the film he wanted to make. Not many filmmakers get to do that. It was the length he wanted, all of the different weather conditions he wanted... A remake was always going to be inferior.

reply

I love "The Magnificent Seven", but you're right - some things don't transfer from one culture to another, such as the Samurai's sense of honor and duty, and their code of conduct. Real-life gunslingers wouldn't have had any of that, and the fact that any of them had a streak of common decency isn't all that believable, the reality is that "gunslingers" were hired thugs who would work for the robber barons, villains, or anyone else who had the money to pay them. Which is why I thoroughly approve of the one major character change, the introduction of the greedy bastard gunfighter who was convinced that the villagers were hiding gold, that was a concession to the reality of the Old West and the sort of men who would choose to live as hired thugs.

And to be more specific, the character of Chris isn't believable either, I mean what is he - a shaven-headed gunslinger with a European accent who spouts Samurai philosophy to a bunch of cowboys and villagers? The fact is, nothing about that character makes any sense, but... Yul Brynner made it work anyway! He was THAT good an actor, or that charismatic a star, he made you believe that such a person could exist.







reply

I also love the Magnificent Seven. I don't think falling short of Seven Samurai (one of the five or ten greatest films ever made in any genre) is all that surprising though. Honestly, The Magnificent Seven isn't even the best AMERICAN WESTERN of the 1960s, let alone one of the very greatest films of all time. It's very good, though, and the score by Elmer Bernstein is indeed one of the greatest film scores every composed.

reply

I respectfully disagree, I think that "TM7" is definitely in the top 10 Westerns ever made, possibly the single best Oater of all time... but this is the opinion of someone who isn't a fan of the genre in general, which is why my disagreement is so very respectful. Perhaps it's a Western made for people who don't like Westerns.

Of course it's a flawed movie, but we both seem to be people who can love a movie while being aware of its flaws. None of those flaws are present in "T7S", or any flaws for that matter, it's a perfect movie all right and one of the best ever made!

reply

It could be top 10 Westerns ever made, but not the top 10 Greatest Films in ANY genre ever made, which is a distinction that Seven Samurai has.

reply

I can't think of a better Western than "TM7", or one I enjoyed more. But I'm curious, just above you said
"Honestly, The Magnificent Seven isn't even the best AMERICAN WESTERN of the 1960s", and I wonder what Western films of that decade you might consider better movies.

Seriously, I can't think of any, and the only one I think is a genuinely good film is "The Professionals"(1966) with Lee Marvin and Burt Lancaster. Of course I enjoy "The Way West", but not because it's good! No, that one is unintentionally hilarious.

reply

I'm a big fan of Liberty Valance and Once Upon A Time in the West, The Wild Bunch, and Ride the High Country.

reply

I haven't seen any of those, at least not all the way through. Which is why I won't even ask a fan of the genre to agree with my rankings, you undoubtedly know a lot more about the genre than I do.

Which makes me wonder what you think of "The Way West"...

reply

You picked the one I HAVEN'T seen. He he.

reply

I only like it because I enjoy Camp, especially unintentional Camp, and "The Way West" is cheeseball melodrama CAMPER THAN A ROW OF PUP TENTS!

If you like good westerns, it probably won't be your thing.

reply

But the samurai in 'Seven Samurai' were all 'ronin', i.e. serving no lord and part of no clan, and therefore without social status, they were only a step ahead of being beggars -only beggars with martial skills, and sometimes, an education.
None of them had topknots, in fact when we're introduced to Kambei, he's in the process of shaving his head and you can see from how passersby react that this is a huge deal for a samurai as his topknot is a sign of his status.
So I'm not sure the "samurai" in 'Seven Samurai' weren't as much outcasts as the gunslingers in 'The Magnificent Seven'.

reply

They still had a residue of respect though, that was above and beyond their ability to kill. The later period when Japan was united and samurai no longer had a function was a bit different (the period of Yojimbo). Honestly, I'm not sure how the makers of The Magnificent Seven could have fully addressed that. They did it as well as they could.

reply

The Ronin would have had respect all right, both because the working people around them were afraid of fighting men, and because people who fall down the social scale can still command some of the respect due their former status... if they behave in a way that earns respect or even deference. And the Ronin of T7S did, they were decent, honorable, and gentlemanly, even if they were broke they still held themselves above grasping at any money available. And that earned the respect of desperate people who were one misfortune away from starvation, they knew the Ronin were living just as precariously, but they still held onto their honor. That's the thing about hopeless poverty, when it takes terrible constant effort to just stay alive, it's easy to discard intangibles like honesty and kindness as wasted effort, or to be tempted to do so, but the Seven Samurai refused to fall that far.

That's something that only partially translated to the American West of the movies, where gunslingers were shown respect far more out of fear than admiration. So the seven gunfighters were shown as being ass-end broke as the Ronin Samurai, and struggling to hold onto their status and self-esteem, and maybe having a sense of personal honor... but the Samurai ideals of loyalty, service, and self-sacrifice had to be left out. The only loyalty a freelance hired gun has is to the contract they've made, not to any employer.

reply