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Dagon said that the baby only saved Kelly because it needed her in order to survive. A Nephilim is half human; I think that human part was not developed enough to survive at that stage of Kelly's pregnancy so the angel part "healed" Kelly- not for her sake but as self-preservation.
I'm getting ready to start re-watching S12. While I didn't love the BMoL's, I enjoyed this season MUCH more than S11. I know it wasn't a big hit with folks on this board. I'll see if I have a different opinion after re-watch.
The plan to get John and Mary together did happen. The cupid made sure they met, fell in love, and planned to get married. But when Azazel killed John in 1973 (as seen in 4.3 In the Beginning) the plan to ensure Dean and Sam were born was derailed. As Alt!Bobby said, John Winchester died more than 40 years ago, and when Mary Campbell (she never married) was drunk, she would talk about how he was the love of her life.
[quote]Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same[/quote]
The prophecies were the same, but they were just prophecies... predictions, not set-in-stone inevitable outcomes.
[quote]Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean[/quote]
But it didn't; when Dean refused to be Michael's vessel, they went with plan B and resurrected Adam. And Lucifer lost his chance to fight Michael when Sam regained control of his vessel to stop Lucifer from killing his brother. Neither Heaven nor Hell foresaw that happening.
The prophecy was always that the apocalypse would be fought and half of Earth would be destroyed in the battles. What changed things was Sam and Dean Winchester exercising their free will and refusing to go along with the plan that Heaven and Hell had prepared for. A reality where the Winchesters were never being born meant the prophecy was fulfilled (probably by another line of Cain and Abel- plan C?) and the apocalypse happened as predicted.
Azazel said he was hoping Sam would be the psychic kid that would lead Lucifer's army, but he had Jake, Ava, Andy and many others to choose from. He also let John trade his life for Dean's because Hell needed a righteous man to break the first seal to free Lucifer. But when they couldn't break John, the crossroads demon Dean summoned to bring Sam back was tasked with only offering Dean one year- because Hell had a new righteous man to use in their plan. Sam and Dean were ideally suited to be the vessels for Lucifer and Michael, but they were not the only options.
There are millions of descendants of Cain and Abel, so there's bound to be thousands of bloodline "matches" other than the Winchesters and Campbells that the angels could have manipulated for their purpose. Sam and Dean not being born would not necessarily have stopped the apocalypse plan-- it would only change the outcome.
I thought Dean made it pretty clear when he told Sam that despite Cas's faith in the Nephilim, Dean was putting his faith in himself, Sam, Mary, Cas and Crowley... sometimes. They were all in on the plan to trap Lucifer in the alternate reality. Cas introduced Sam and Dean to Alt!Bobby, who gave them an automatic rifle with angel killing bullets. Crowley entered the rift and put together the spell. It did seem like Mary was deliberately left out of the fight, but after half a season of angst over first Mary, then Sam lying about working with the British Men of Letters, I doubt that Dean would not have shared the detail of the plan with her.
Cas was the decoy- attack Lucifer and let Sam and Dean lure him to the rift. Once in the alt reality, Dean held off Lucifer while Crowley and Sam did the spell. It took a while for the spell to work; and it seemed like Cas's job was to stop Lucifer from coming back through the rift in the event that the Winchesters failed to hold him there long enough for him to be sealed in. However, after Cas spoke to Kelly, he seemed determined to take a more active part in protecting Jack- he stormed back into the rift and attacked Lucifer. Again, like the viewers, he must have known an angel blade wouldn't kill an archangel- but I think Cas thought stabbing Lucifer would slow him down enough for Cas to get out before the rift closed, sealing Lucifer in.
When that failed, Mary tried to knock Luci back into the alternate reality. I don't think she intended to get pulled in, but she had to know that attacking Lucifer with warded brass knuckles was going to put her close enough for him to kill her. She risked it to save her sons and to put Lucifer back in the alternate world before the rift disappeared.
I think Bella is right, Jack didn't intentionally cause the rift- it was the power generated by his impending birth that caused it.
[quote]Also Crowley did a spell that was to close the rift to keep Lucifer in the alternate reality. But from what I saw it didn't work. [/quote]
It did work, it just took some time. I assumed Cas knew that a regular angel blade wouldn't kill an Archangel; he was just trying to slow Lucifer down until the rift closed and locked him in the alternate universe. But after Lucifer managed to recover and follow Cas back through the portal, Mary decided to sacrifice herself by knocking Lucifer back into the rift and holding him there until it closed.
It might make an interesting spin off. Maybe just the first one or two would be about Mary working with Bobby and other hunters in the alternate universe. But after that (however TPTB want to resolve the Lucifer/Mary storyline) the rest of the episodes could be different alternate realities. That way we could see some of our favorite characters again in 1, 2 or 3 episode arcs. Then on to the next reality.
I won't say I'm bitter, but I am disappointed that Rowena is gone. I really liked her.
On the bright side, remember how Abaddon was burned, but a demon used a spell to resurrect her meat suit? Max is a witch and he has that book of dark magic, so you never know... Rowena may be back.
The Winchesters are the poster children for "doing terrible things all the time to save each other." They also know what it's like to grow up as hunters- hiding who you are and what your family does from everyone you meet. They understand better than most how a hunter's life makes you unnaturally dependent on your sibling. Max and Alicia were hunters and twins. They literally spent their entire lives together. I couldn't believe Sam and Dean left Max to "do the right thing." They had to know he would not be able to go on without his sister.
At first I thought Sam and Dean would take the ring to make sure Max wouldn't try to use it. Then I thought for sure as they were talking in the car about the lengths they would go to for each other, they would realize that Max would do the same; they would turn the Impala around and go back, only to find the house burning and Max and Alicia gone.
After an entire episode about empathy, having the Winchesters leave Max alone to grieve for his mother and sister seemed... bizarre. It was the only part of the episode I didn't like.
[quote]If the carving scene is foreshadowing, then for the writers to pull something out that has such sentimentality attached to it, it'd have to foreshadow something big.[/quote]
I do think something big is coming, although for the life of me I can't figure out what. I was thinking they may be leaving the bunker for a while (or permanently) but I could be wrong. As you say, set costs.
But isn't that the point of foreshadowing? To alert you that something is coming... to build anticipation? At the end of Dog Dean Afternoon, when Sam asks Dean why the chef asked what Sam was, Dean casually replies that the guy was crazy, but then adds more seriously and reflectively, "He was possessed by something he couldn't control. It was... It was a matter of time before it completely took over." We may not have known what was going to happen when Sam found out he was possessed (Metatron, Gadreel, the broken spell, Kevin's death), but it was pretty clear from that scene that the consequences would be big; not just for Sam but also for Dean.
I'm just guessing that they may be leaving the bunker. I could be way off on that. But when you start talking about legacy- about what you're leaving behind, it's a pretty good hint that something big is about to change. And if that's the case, I'd rather see a nice thoughtful moment now than have it lost during the potential chaos when that change (whatever it may be) takes place, or be diminished as an epilogue after the fact.
It's just my preference in storytelling.
" it would make sense as some kind of foreshadowing"
Isn't foreshadowing situations to come kind of the basis of this entire series? Figuring out what they meant by that/what's to come is half the fun of watching for me. We're just about 80% through the season, so I expect the whole "what is our legacy" question will be addressed in the next few episodes. What we know so far:
- Even though they were raised as hunters, Henry pointed out that they are also legacies to the Men of Letters.
- The MoL were researchers and chroniclers; their approach to killing monsters and witches was cold and brutal. Their method was to use others (trusted hunters) to do the dirty work.
- After being expelled from the MoL, Magnus continued to collect both monsters and weapons to defeat them. That's something the BMoL are also doing. And they seem particularly obsessed with getting the Colt.
- Dean is content to be a hunter. Sam seems to want to work with/use the knowledge of the MoL to eradicate more monsters. We've heard Dean warn Sam several times this season that he needs to "pick a side."
- Ketch and his men have gone through every inch of the Bunker. Mick noted that their keys can open any MoL safe house in the world.
If I was to speculate, my guess is that Dean is ready to go back to just being a hunter; that is the legacy he wants to leave. I think he may even be willing to walk away from the bunker and go back to living on the road. Sam will go with him, but I think he will want to do whatever he can to preserve the "good" that the MoL have left behind. And of course there's Lucifer's baby. How to deal with the child may be a rift that forces the brothers to split up. I hope not- I like when they are working together and being friends, but we're due for some drama so this might be it. And down the line, as Dean suggested, the bunker can always be left to some other hunters (if they choose to go in that direction for a spin off.)
I'm usually wrong when I try to guess at where the story is going but that's my prediction for why they chose now for the legacy talk.
I liked it too, Bella. I know a lot of fans don’t like how they feel Dean is being portrayed. After reading several posts, I went back and watched the episode again to try to see their point of view, but I still don’t get it. To me, it was Dean being Dean. And I loved it.
Dean’s main concern (emphasized by his repeatedly calling Cas) is finding Kelly and Dagon. The BMoL don’t own Dean Winchester. There was a job to do, and he showed up to do his part, but he showed a basic level of concern and interest and he left time for hooking up with the waitress. And for all the “fun” weapons the BMoLs tried to tempt the Winchesters with Dean was content to hunt with the colt. He doesn’t need an arsenal, or angel blades (or even his angel bff) to be the bad-ass hunter he has always been. The colt, his brother, a burger, and a willing woman… the rest was, as he told Sam, “…you know, normal.”
I also like that Sam is acting more like his big brother on cases. Yes, he is his own man, but after all these years, it’s nice to see him working cases and killing monsters like the brother he’s been watching and learning from all this time.
I thought it was a nice MOtW episode. I like it when the Winchesters are not fighting or hiding things from each other. When they’re just hunting together- being brothers, and teammates and friends. And I liked that even though they seemed to accept that the world would not remember them or what they’ve given to save it, they couldn’t resist leaving their “mark” behind. Like after weighing the good and the bad they still have a sense of pride in who they are. IMO, it was a nice moment.
I liked Fan Fiction. I was not a fan of the Demon!Dean storyline so I was happy it ended early. But I was worried that Dean wouldn't be himself; that there would be a lot of self-loathing and angst, so I was glad the "reset" came in the form of a lighthearted episode that we could move on from. And I thought it was funny. Ok, mostly it was silly but it made me laugh.
"I think Cole is harmless in comparison to the others.... Cole had an agenda but he worked through it."
I didn't mean to imply that I thought Cole (or even Mick for that matter) was evil like Crowley. I just mean the turn around in attitude deserves more development/explanation. It took Sam 2 seasons to convince Dean that not every monster deserved to die. It took Dean 5 seasons (and the Mark of Cain) to accept that he and Crowley might be able to work together. Even Castiel, who was secretly rooting for the Winchesters to stop the Apocalypse, needed one and a half seasons to fully be on board Team Free Will. Cole thought Dean killed his father in cold blood. Then he thought Dean was a demon. I think it should have taken more than 3 episodes for him to "work through it" and want to be BFF's.
Mick may have learned a hard lesson about what it's like to kill and how it feels to try to save/cure a "monster", but it will take more time, experience, maybe even backstory before I buy that he's a changed man. I don't know what his relationship/role is with the BMoL. He could be a legacy, too... the grandson of one of the "Old Men." If I don't know where his loyalties lie, how am I suppose to believe he's on Sam and Dean's side now?
"They are all very different characters with hidden agenda's but the Winchesters have managed to turn them all around in their own ways. I love the boys for that. "
That's a really great way of looking at it, Bella. I hope you're right about Mick.
"... as was the opening scenes with the brother and sister meandering slowly through a dark snowy forest. Who does that? It's supposed to build suspense but I'm sure most viewers knew exactly what was about to happen."
This was probably the only thing that did surprise me. I was expecting the brother to be mauled when he wandered into the trees- I was not expecting the sister to scream/be attacked. But the rest- him being killed, her being turned- was pretty easy to guess.
"At least I wasn't bored as I have sometimes been during other episodes this season."
I'm actually enjoying this season MUCH more than S11. I was bored by the whole Amara storyline. And while she constantly repeated that she and Dean were bound together, I just never felt any connection between them. The whole storyline fell flat for me. I really do like S12. I still don't like the BMoL, but as long as the Winchesters are a part of their story, I'm happy to see where the story goes.
"But at least Dean seems to be back to his old clever self.... They've kind of dumbed him down so much this season"
I'm not sure what you mean by dumbing Dean down. I think maybe I'm just so grateful to see Dean acting/reacting instead of staring blankly at Amara that I might be missing something. I noticed a few over-the-top scenes of our brilliant hunter being uncharacteristically clumsy. And there was that ridiculously OOC beginning of Regarding Dean. But for the most part, I've been happy with S12 Dean. Maybe I'll feel differently when I re-watch the season.
I'm still not warming up to Mick or any of the other BMoL. They are the bad guys and they are not to be trusted. It took 7+ seasons for me to accept Crowley as the Winchesters' enemy-turned-ally. It will take more than a handful of episodes to change my mind about Mick. (I felt the same way about Cole)
7/10
One of the things I really like about this show is that there is usually something (whether it's a major plot point or an action in a minor scene) that catches me off guard. I like when "I did not see that coming." This episode was predictable on every level. It had some nice Dean and Sam moments, so I didn't dislike it, but it wasn't very intriguing.
It felt like a remake of the Hunteri Heroici episode. This time instead of Cas, it's Mick who decides to become a hunter; is over-confident that his skills give him an upper hand, only to learn hunting is harder than it looks; but in the end he has a supernatural "cure" that saves the day, gaining him the Winchesters' respect while learning a valuable lesson about himself. Again, it was predictable and not as entertaining this time around, especially without the talking cat.
When they introduced her at the end of Ask Jeeves I was wary of them adding a new villain to the show. But midway through Girls, Girls, Girls I was thinking, "I don't know who she is but I LIKE her!" When it was revealed that she was Crowley's mother (I remember him telling Dean that some things he learned from his mother, who was a witch) I wondered if she could be as entertainingly evil as Crowley. I remember being very intrigued by the character and hoping she would be around for a while.
Then in her next episode when she was chained in Crowley's dungeon talking to a fellow prisoner and making a Braveheart joke, it sealed the deal for me. I love Rowena and she's been one of my favorites ever since that scene.
"I just kept wondering why Corbin wanted Sam dead when he'd tried to rescue and save both of them."
I guess that's just the effects of becoming a werewolf. Remember in Bitten when the first kid got bitten by the teacher in the woods? He seemed okay at first, but eventually he lost control of his emotions and attacked his friend for threatening his girlfriend. Corbin was the same way. He thought he was protecting Michelle when he told Sam that he wanted to leave before the werewolves came back, but he knew Dean wouldn't leave without Sam; and he and Michelle wouldn't survive without Dean. So he created the only scenario in which Dean would ever leave Sam behind... literally, over Sam's dead body.
Sorry, but I loved it. The idea that these brothers would go to any length to save one another just never gets old for me. And the amazing scene when Dean finds Sam "dead"- we see him go from dismay, to rage, to acceptance, to sorrow in a manner of seconds; each emotion quietly played to perfection by Jensen. I can watch that scene over and over. Like Cassiopeia I thought the acting, direction and editing were fantastic. It might not have been the greatest episode of the season, but it's still one of my favorites.