MovieChat Forums > Red Joan (2019) Discussion > I tried to like it. But...

I tried to like it. But...

posted 4 years ago by LTUM (980)
11 replies | jump to latest

Never quite found the main character likeable enough. I was pulling against her for most of the film. The young Joan was very physically appealing. Pretty in an uncanny way. Quite delicious, actually. I think she has one of the most beautiful moths I have ever seen. (though I'm aware that has nothing to do with the film itself lol)

But yeah I didn't sympathize with the main character at all. And, that is not a recipe for a good story, IMO.

But it was otherwise well made.

[–] stickman38 (3018) 4 years ago

I just saw it and thought it was a good film. Judi Dench is a very good actress but she comes off as not real approachable in this but probably because she's a spy... lol...

Take out the spy element and she is perhaps more likeable. And yeah, Sophie Cookson is a hottie. Although, for some odd reason, she looks a lot like Reese Witherspoon in this movie. Seriously, they could be sisters.

Anyhow the movie is actually based on the true story of Melita Norwood, a commie sympathizer and Russian spy living in Britain during WWII. Obviously, they changed quite a bit about the actual story, like the girl's real name for instance, but the gist of the story remains intact.

Either way, I liked it, I'd give it a 7 out of 10. Entertaining stuff in my opinion....

[–] LTUM (980) 4 years ago

oh well i guess we each see things differently. i'd give it more like a 5. and that score only based on filmmaking etc, not the story.

like i said up top, i find i don't enjoy a film with an unlikeable protag. and i'd say anyone who finds this protag otherwise is, well, never mind. but probably young, or with red leanings. i cringed every time she snapped pics of documents, etc. because that was serious stuff and there is no excuse in being a traitor, regardless of what the rationalization is.

i said all i can say up top, so i dont even know why i am writing this. lol

[–] stickman38 (3018) 4 years ago

Not all movie characters are likeable but to say they're reds or young is a bit out there.

I figured you didn't like the fact that she was a spy. lol...

Hey, I didn't like it either and I honestly think Melita Norwood should have done some prison time for basically giving away secrets to Stalin of all people. But I viewed this to be an interesting moral dilemma for "Joan". She saw it as a way of preventing future wars. Although, giving it to Stalin doesn't really make a lot of sense. After all the atrocities committed by the Russian military on German citizens during WWII I am really not sure why this would make any sense to anyone.

I suppose we can be thankful that the bomb has only been used two times on live targets. So, it made me feel somewhat indecisive about her plans to "equal" the playing field. It makes you ponder the thought of 'was it really' a bad thing? I found that to be an interesting part of the film and one of the best scenes in the movie

(SPOILERS) is when she gives up her secret to the man she's having an affair with and working with on the project while he's in jail accused of the thing she was doing. Powerful scene in my opinion...

Pretty good spy/espionage film in my view. Although there are better ones out there... Hell, most of the James Bond films are better. But this one was based on a true story and I have a soft spot for films based on true events. lol...

[–] LTUM (980) 4 years ago

i get ya. and i shouldnt have called the poor kids reds, lol

good points. i just found myself antsy through the whole thing. didn't feel compelled the way i did watching The Imitation Game. that one blew me away! i think that's what i meant, by the fact i couldnt really find myself pulling for joan. hey i get your enjoyment gained by watching it unfold. i do. but in contrast to that, i think a movie properly done will 'place' the viewer in the character's shoes, at least emotionally. me, i had trouble going there due to the context of her choices. but i admit that is due to my own predispositions about those topics, like treason to one's own country, etc. And i own up to having t hese predispositions. just not my cuppa.

watched a few older espionage ones lately. torn curtain, the man who couldnt come out of the cold. seen those?

cheers.

[–] stickman38 (3018) 4 years ago

Yeah, I agree, you don't really pull for her but I do like the internal conflict she is faced with. However, it's not like she didn't know they were building a bomb. lol... so, all the pearl clutching didn't make much sense in that regards.

I haven't seen Imitation Game yet but it's on my list of films to watch. and haven not see those older ones, I should check those out too. Thanks for the tip.... Torn Curtain looks like a good film. Paul Newman is in it, so yeah... will check that out soon.

[–] CheekyMonkey (584) 4 years ago

I don't think you have to like the main character in order to appreciate the movie... it's not that kind of film...

I think the premise is intersting... To capture how ideology and romance can both drive people to do foolish things in their youth... Add to that the layer of geo-political and life or death consequence and the whole spy thing and it's not hard to see why this movie was made...

I watched it on a flight... It was pretty good, as a story. I tend to discount movies bearing any reality to the historical account, because I know how far artistic license is pushed...

I thought it was a good movie... Very interesting how the real Melita Norwood didn't suffer the consequences of her treason... I suppose that is a topic for another movie... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melita_Norwood

Also, with regards to Sophie Cookson, yes, excellent mouth... Agreed.

[–] LTUM (980) 4 years ago

I don't think you have to like the main character in order to appreciate the movie

i dont want to come off just seeming contrary here, but i actually think one does need to like the main character to enjoy a movie. that's kinda the whole point, to instill empathy in the viewer, 'place the viewer in the charactr's shoes'. well, at least this is the way screenwriters go about writing movies, by design. it may fail sometimes, but generally it's accepted as a key component. though yes i agree that people are not all the same and 'like' is a subjective measure, which means we will all identify with different things. like breaking bad for example. i found i couldn't pull for walt after season 3, which made me start to dislike the show.

imo, without this empathy element, any movie becomes simply a play by play academic rendition of a string of events. yes that may play for some people... some people will be fine with that.

as i sit here thinking about it i guess you are right, that one doesnt have to like the main character to enjoy the film. the goal chasing and plot dynamics may be interesting enough for you guys, without caring about the characters. but FOR ME, HON. LTUM, liking the character is necessary. i am just that odd kind of a chap who demands empathy in movies lol

but again, it is indeed how movies are designed at the dna level, by screenwriters. for what that's worth.

peace.

[–] CheekyMonkey (584) 4 years ago

i understand that perspective, but i don't find it necessary...

i can put myself in a characters shoes, without having to like the character, or what they do... i feel this way about movies like American Psycho or such where the main characters are not good people... i suppose it's a form of empathy, but not sympathy...

Similarly, some filmmakers intentionally try to put some distance between the viewer and the characters, so that the viewer can have a differnt point of view... more abstract and detached... This isn't the case here, i think the director wanted us to be in Joan's shoes, but i don't think the movie suffers too much be her not being a likeable person...

But I do understand your perspective... it does seem important to a lot of people... probably most people and filmmakers... but there are quite a few exceptions...

[–] LTUM (980) 4 years ago

thanks are in order. huge thanks.

you taught me something here, and i can honestly say it's a marked spike upward for me.

because after a coulpe of days, i decided you are right; its not necessary to like the MC. totally agree with that now. i stand corrected.

this premise we discussed floated in the back of my mind these past two days as i watched this or that on tv.... and i started to think about it in relation to things i've watched, and i actually came up with some examples where i DID like some stories over the years, ones where i wasnt really pulling for anyone, just watching it as a spectator. one example is true detective. saw a making of this morning and that is when this clicked for me, consciously. i thought 'this series blew me away, yet none of the characters are very likeable, yet still i was riveted and hailed it as one of the top things i had ever seen, one that stayed with me after i was done watching.' (a similar point can be made for breaking bad. and there are others. no need for me to make a list)

but here's the thing, though.

in my own writing, this premise 'one can enjoy the story without pulling for or even liking the protag' has given me a kind of free license to embrace some of my unfinished works that i have hitherto been very critical of, and spent lots of time trying to disect for purposes of finding ways to better appeal to the reader by making the protags likeable.

but now, alas, i am released from all that gyrating lol. i literally feel empowered by this new perspective. refreshed. sp now i will just pour out my story, and let that be what that. This is very liberating, so i thank you for opening my eyes to this.

many thanks.

-cheers-

[–] CheekyMonkey (584) 4 years ago

Thank your for your kind words... I'm glad that you found it refreshing... I had the same feeling when I first came across this idea... it was when I was reading short stories. Same concept applies.

I have to say though, it's interesting to see which directors and actors are able to get away with not having likeable characters... I imagine that it requires a certain skill and thought.

[–] AckbarsRevenge (3567) 4 years ago

I like Sophie Cocksoon