MovieChat Forums > The Batman (2022) Discussion > Did The Riddler Get His Due Here?

Did The Riddler Get His Due Here?

posted 2 years ago by ecarle (14979)
10 replies | jump to latest

At the movies...we've had so many Jokers.

Two of them won Oscars for the role..one Best Actor, one Best Supporting Actor(but he was the better one of the two.)

One superstar originated the role in 1989 and got a $60 million payday.

..and there are a few more.

But what of The Riddler?

I'm going to leave out the animated versions because I don't think they have "the reach" so we are really down to four:
"TV Batman"(1966): Frank Gorshin.
"TV Batman" (1967) John Astin
"Batman Forever" (1995): Jim Carrey
"The Batman" (2022): Paul Dano

I do believe that Gorshin was the only actor to play a villain on Batman to actually win an Emmy for it (Best Guest Performance.) The Riddler -- not the Joker -- was the villain on the opening episode of the series in 1966. Then they brought out the Penguin(Burgess Meredith( the next week, and then finally The Joker(Caesar Romero) three weeks out. ABC seemed to think The Riddler was the most interesting villain to lead with.

In accord with The Riddler from the comic books(first appearance, 1948) Gorshin had to wear
a skintight green leotard as The Riddler. Occasionally, The Riddler wore a jacket and pants ala The Penguin and The Joker, but Gorshin's slim body worked well with the skintight number.

Gorshin couldn't fit The Riddler into his schedule one time(maybe he quit for good?) so they used another actor who looked nothing like Gorshin OR The Riddler in the comic books(who DID look like Frank Gorshin.) John Astin -- the moustacheod Gomez Addams of The Addams Family -- looked NOTHING like Frank Gorshin or the Riddler in the comics -- Astin had black hair, for one thing. And the skintight green leotard looked a bit stretched on him.

Gorshin came back as The Riddler one more time in Batman's final, truncated season. And that was it for The Riddler for a long, long time.

When a big screen Batman finally hit theaters over 20 years later in 1989 -- they went with The Joker, and a prestige superstar to play him.

3 years later, they went with The Penguin and Catwoman.

3 years LATER, they finally gave The Ridder his big screen shot. No respect. Why? The kinky leotard? The difficulty of writing quality riddles?

Robin Williams, having been considered and dropped for the Joker in Batman 1989, moved into position for The Riddler. After all, Gorshin had played the guy with a manic energy and insane super-giggle. That was more Robin Williams than Jack Nichoslon.

But alas for Williams, in the interim, a new, "nuttier" and more youth-friendly superstar arrived and took over the role: Jim Carrey (Williams, now twice burned by the franchise, was never considered again.)

Wherea Williams stocky build might have looked odd in that leotard, the thin, fit Carrey fit it fine(as well as fitting in the coat and hat in other scenes.) And Carrey took Gorshin's nutty giggler way up into that over-acting stratosphere that had gained him so many fans.

Alas: Jim Carrey's pretty perfect Ridder was in the first of two pretty bad Batman movies(the infamous Joel Schumacher ones.) It was an inauspicious big screen debut for The Riddler.

And the franchise seemed hellbent on ignoring The Riddler thereafter.

Instead we got Mr. Freeze,Two-Face, Poison Ivy, Bane, Ras a'Ghoul , The Scarecrow, The Joker (again), Two-Face(again) Bane(again), and Catwoman (again.) Then we got two more Jokers.

The Riddler. No respect. Til now. 27 years after JIm Carrey played him. Ta da...

...Paul Dano? And as a guy called Edward Nashton? Instead of Edward Nygma? ("Enygma.")

And this: Dano NEVER wears that green leotard, or that pink eyemask, Or even a jacket with question marks all over it.

No...in this new edition of Chris Nolan realism with an even darker nihilism, The Riddler pretty much wears a dark mask all the time -- he looks like the Zodiac secial killer in David Fincher's movie. He wears a thick leather jacket. There is no "uniform" to the Riddler at all. And certainly no color...green or otherwise.

And when he IS unmasked and put in a cell...he's just...Paul Dano. Dano's a weird looking guy anyway, but there's not much mystery to him here.

There is also this: for the first time in ANY Batman movie, a Batman villain gives off a very serious "serial killer" vibe. Yes, The Joker is a serial killer, but he's also a gang boss. THIS RIddler is a psycho who kills people "Saw" -like as psychos do -- putting a man's head in a cage full of rats goes towards "Hostel" -- no kids allowed, anymore.

Meanwhile: in the third act, with Dano in a glass cell and Batman growlilng at him in raging, impotent fury, we get a re-do of Batman's similar jailhouse rant against Heath Ledger's Joker and -- poor Paul Dano looks like even LESS of a "super-villain." He's just a crazy looking nerd. An incel, I suppose. But still.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

So..does The Riddler get his due here? I'm not so sure. This NOT The Riddler as drawn for the comic in 1948 and first perfected by Frank Gorshin in 1966 (that INSANE giggle...much different than the Joker's laugh in any version.)

On the other hand, THIS Riddler fits THIS movie in his pure, dark, raging , homicidal insanity. Not since Joaquin Phoenix's graphic throat-slashing of one victim and face-shooting of another, in "Joker" has a DC movie elected to go this brutal. The Riddler here is a serious villain in a MUCH better movie than the one JIm Carrey overacted in.

Still, this: I don't think Paul Dano's Riddler is as much as a Riddler as we should get, and deserve to get. Dano's Riddler is a pretty garden variety psycho, especially unmasked.

They better fit Paul Dano for a green leotard...or cast again.

The Riddler has not yet gotten his due.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

"So..does The Riddler get his due here? I'm not so sure."

The Riddler works best here as a way to shine a light on Batman's detective skills. We didn't see much of those skills in Nolan's trilogy iirc. I seem to remember scenes with Keaton in the cave doing some intelligence work.

It's certainly a different take on Riddler. Carrey and Gorshin played him a bit too much like Joker Jr. with all the hysterical laughter, spazzing out and over-the-top facial expressions. But for all of that he still seemed less threatening.

In the animated version, Riddler was very much a guy in control of his emotions. It has been a long time for me, but I don't remember him as some hyperactive in the comics either.

Dano dials back the expressive craziness, but he is way more methodical and dangerous here. I never thought of this Riddler as some sort of incel-standin, but reading some of the threads and comments here, I can see that interpretation.

I liked too that he is given a proper origin story that has some nuance to it. His motivation is more refined than 'burn the world down' that we typically see of Joker, even in that standalone movie.

For now I'd say this is the most interesting version.

[–] triplea (3577) 2 years ago

By being a 4chan incel bad man?

LOL!

[–] JosephQCat (706) 2 years ago

The story goes that Gorshin looked like the Riddler from the comic books. My impression is that Gorshin was considered a rising talent in 1965 when the pilot was produced so they wanted to incorporate his energy and zeal into the show. The Riddler was the best vehicle to do that as it allowed Gorshin to use his impressionist skills to the fullest. The Joker and Penguin were not even figured out in terms of character qualities or actors until after the pilot was filmed. I just watched a Cesar Romero interview where he was invited down to the Fox studios to be sold on appearing by viewing the Gorshin pilot. Romero's and Meredith's actors while lively were nowhere as as animated on screen as Gorshin's Riddler. I just can't imagine Romero doing the schitck that went with the Riddler silent movie scheme that Gorshin did including the Chaplin impression. It was a great loss that Gorshin could not do the second season as it seemed the producer Dozier was getting more comfortable with what Gorshin could do. Love Meredith and Romero but they were 60 years of age when the second season came along and clearly had limits as to what they could do in front of the camera.

My recollection with Williams is that he was never waiting around for a role in the motion picture run of Batman. I really believe despite any public musings he may have made about the franchise that in private appearing in a Batman movie was a reversal of his screen fortune. I think given the common ground as impressionists Carrey paid a little too much homage to Gorshin's rendition. But I think that the Riddler can was kicked down the road into the mid-1990's as the producers just could not figure the right balance between using Gorshin's contribution and making their own original blue print. John DeLancie from Star Trek TNG might have been a good choice but maybe a bit too obvious considering his Q character. Ideally, the motion picture Riddler should have been a man in his 30's.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I just watched a Cesar Romero interview where he was invited down to the Fox studios to be sold on appearing by viewing the Gorshin pilot. Romero's and Meredith's actors while lively were nowhere as as animated on screen as Gorshin's Riddler.

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True. I mean, Gorshin physically bounced around on the screen and his giggle was truly INSANE. (I think I missed that the most with Paul Dano; Carrey at least tried to get there.)

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Love Meredith and Romero but they were 60 years of age when the second season came along and clearly had limits as to what they could do in front of the camera.

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I hadn't thought of that. They were too old to "bounce" and caper about like Gorshin did.

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It was a great loss that Gorshin could not do the second season as it seemed the producer Dozier was getting more comfortable with what Gorshin could do.

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It was weird how the series lost Gorshin's Riddler so soon. Then we got John Astin(just not comparable, though cool in his own way -- his face, his voice.) Then Gorshin came BACK, but it was in the pretty bad final season in which there was only one half hour episode each week. The Batmoblie was running on fumes at ABC. Gorshin's return seemed forced and meaningless(I recall him in the boxing ring with Batman, that's it.)

Indeed, when you think about it, The Riddler got short shrift on the Batman TV show in GENERAL. There were more Joker episodes and Penguin episodes and the Joker AND the Penguin teamed up for one.

But wait, I forgot: Gorshin DID play The Riddler in the weird Big Screen movie. So he showed up that crucial time, as well, alongside Romero and Meredith and a "new" Catwoman(Lee Meriweather.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

BTW, Youtube has impressionist Frank Gorshin on the Dean Martin show doing Batman and Robin as various actors, including his specialties at the time: Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas. But he also does Batman as Marlon Brando and Robin as...ROD STEIGER. The Steiger impression is hilarious, with Steiger/Robin threatening to leave and take everything with him: "The BatMOBILE, the BatPLANE, the BatBOAT...everything GOES!"

Well, funnier when Rod Steiger says it.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

My recollection with Williams is that he was never waiting around for a role in the motion picture run of Batman. I really believe despite any public musings he may have made about the franchise that in private appearing in a Batman movie was a reversal of his screen fortune.

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Well, I don't have the best information or recollection, but I remember this:

Movie columnists kept writing that Jack Nichoson was "in talks" for the Joker. Which was HUGE news. Jack just didn't DO summer blockbuster type movies, or Christmas blockbusters, either: he turned down The Sting, Close Encounters("I didn't want to fight the effects"), Lex Luthor.

But along the way , the columnists wrote that Jack was wavering and now Robin Williams was under consideration. I recall that my interest in Batman 1989 dropped quickly as when Jack was out, then rose again when he came back.

I think Williams was touted in the press as The Riddler BEFORE Jim Carrey exploded in 1994(with Ace Ventura and The Mask.) Then Carrey became the natural suspect. The gossip that Williams had been "burned twice and never a gain as a Batman villain was, perhaps, gossip.)

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I think given the common ground as impressionists Carrey paid a little too much homage to Gorshin's rendition.

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Carrey certainly seemed more influenced by Gorshin than Nicholson was by Romero. DeVito had some of Meredith's "squawk."

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[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

But I think that the Riddler can was kicked down the road into the mid-1990's as the producers just could not figure the right balance between using Gorshin's contribution and making their own original blue print.

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Agreed. I was very curious to see what they would do. Nicholson made the Joker a variation on ...Nicholson. DeVito found common ground -- and great new grossness as the Penguin. (Note in passing; my OP is on the Riddler but The Batman certainly has a new take on the Penguin, equally realistic and quite insanely losing the actor's real face in the process.)

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John DeLancie from Star Trek TNG might have been a good choice but maybe a bit too obvious considering his Q character. Ideally, the motion picture Riddler should have been a man in his 30's.

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Yes. Well, Paul Dano is age appropriate. I'll probably have to see his performance one or two more times to fully judge.

But I think The Riddler must go on record as a hard villain to capture in the 21st Century on film.

[–] Dogiswhite (1114) 2 years ago

The Riddler works better when he is not a killer. He should be smarter than Batman, but always wanting credit for his intellectual superiority. That's why the need to give out clues or riddles. Making him just another psycho murderer takes away what makes the character special.

[–] redban (5226) 2 months ago

I don't agree with OP's crticism that Dano's Riddler didn't wear green, eyemasks, or a jacket with question marks all over it. Those details would have been awful and out-of-place in this movie

I remember when Bane was announced as the villain for Dark Knight Rises. People wanted either Penguin or Riddler. Who know how Nolan might've handled Riddler

I think the issue with Riddler is trying to make him deranged / psycho without having him be a Joker-copy. In that respect, I think the movie suceeded.

Overall - I have no problems with Dano's rendition of Riddler. To the extent that Riddler didn't get "his due," the cause may be that he didn't get a chance to dominate screen-time the way Ledger did in Dark Knight. Dano's one major scene is the confrontation with Batman at Arkham Asylum (where he says, "bruce wayne" several times). Gordon, Falcone, Selena, and even Penguin might've got as much screen-time as Dano did