Anti Christian? - Beautiful Creatures (2013) Discussion

[–] cary_howe 11 years ago

Have you ever met a conservative Republican?

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I'm not christian, but I was raised christian and it took watching the whole movie to see that they were not bashing or being anti-christian, they were calling out the 'small southern town" stereotypical christians that use their religion to judge and control people. Something that has and still is a reality in some southern states.

If you watched it all the way through, I hope you saw the good christian characters, not just the bad. Like Ethan's Aunt Amma. She is shown as a good christian, even talks about having faith and not listening to people that use religion to judge others. I loved one of her quotes..

Ethan: "How do you believe in all this and still believe in God."

Amma: "God created all things, didn't he. It's only men that go and decide which ones are mistakes."

Then there was the pastor as well. While his sermon was very humbling, I liked the scene when Macon comes to the church to protect Lena. While Macon is being a bit belligerent with some of the congregation, that pastor shows him patience and allows him to say his piece. He (the pastor) also looked angry when Mrs. Lincoln (who was actually possessed by Sarafine) told the congregation to sign the petition to expell Lena. I don't think he agreed with it.

I think even Lena had faith, though that's a little unclear.

I would also like to point out (and though I have not read the book yet, I think this might have been lost in translation between the book and the movie)that the one egging on this stereotypical, bad christian behavior was Mrs. Lincoln, the woman whom we learn has been possessed by Sarafine. And Sarafine is doing all of this to upset Lena so that she can be claimed by the dark side. So, I think it all had a purpose...it wasn't anti-christian, it was an evil woman's ploy to get her daughter to despise humans.

But that's just my take on it. I think if anything, the movie celebrated goodness. Goodness in love, actions, thoughts, and even in belief.

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[–] BobFlame 10 years ago

Lena and Sarafine were portrayed as Pantheistic Atheists:

Lena : "Yes, there are evil casters.Are there no evil mortals?The only difference is you made up somebody else to blame." (This line proves that she doesn`t believe in The Devil regarding him as a mortal superstition and therefore since God created The Devil it`s not a stretch to say she regards him the same way.That said,she does seem to have faith in a Pantheistic sense).

Sarafine: "They make up ideas like God and love and then they use those ideas to justify killing each other".

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] titans_58 10 years ago

I live in a small Tennessee town and actually most Christians behind closed doors and in secret are that way. Sorry but its the truth. Of course they do not come out and say it but them and their friends do not need to they just are that way and dont question it. They literally believe thats the way it is or should be and think anything that is different from there warp idea of the reading of the bible is very bad and wrong. There is a church every 2 miles anyway you drive in this state. These people are the most bigoted and racist people I have ever meant and I am from the south but lived up north for over 20 years and came back. I was liberated to say the least. This is why I am a Atheist now. Thanks I needed that dose of reality to actually see reality at its finest.

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

Not all Christians are extreme bigots but there are definitely a lot of them. Thanks for stating what so many Christians refuse to admit and that's that they smile at you and talk the most vile hate the second you walk out the door. I have extended family in Mississippi and it blows me away whenever I see them. Grin at you from ear to ear with one hand on the bible and the other grabbing a shotgun to shoot you in the back. It's really very sad. And that's how they treat family. You would die if you heard how they treat people they see as different from their supposed godly way of living.

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[–] majandralover30 10 years ago

i think this has little to do with christianity. IF they were true christians they would be concerned about the souls of the different and would want to show them Christ's love and truth in the hopes they'd come to him. Instead they alienate them further away. infuriating

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

But see this is the problem. It's OK to hold up some ideal for what Christianity is but all I care about is what I see in reality. And I see quite a bit of Christians who are terribly far from walking the walk. So then what is Christianity in practice? Hordes of people, not just now but throughout history, have hidden behind a cloak of religion and are some of the most vile, hateful, destructive people this earth has seen.

Just because someone says they are a Christian, for me that affords them zero credibility to claim to be a morale authority. For me it's 100% your deeds and actions as a citizen of family and community. Your actions will build credibility, not babbling your supposed religious authority based on some book you keep in a drawer.

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[–] majandralover30 10 years ago

this is no different from all the other faiths that have done such things.

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

Oh I completely agree. I've agreed with both of your posts. I'm just trying to explain why I personally understand where a lot of religion bashing comes from. And again there are clearly huge and amazing examples of the devout who deserve their pedestal. But how can we escape what we all see as examples of very vocal Christians that do not. Christians have to own their flock and the effects of what their members cause, both the positive and the negative. But in practice I don't think that happens, hence the backlash. OK, enough from me. Let me end by saying I love love love the new pope. He would appear to be the most invigorating breath of fresh air I can remember from a religious leader in my lifetime, across all religions.

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[–] wintermonk 10 years ago

"But see this is the problem. It's OK to hold up some ideal for what Christianity is but all I care about is what I see in reality. And I see quite a bit of Christians who are terribly far from walking the walk. So then what is Christianity in practice? Hordes of people, not just now but throughout history, have hidden behind a cloak of religion and are some of the most vile, hateful, destructive people this earth has seen. "

I don't know, but if I was lost in a rough part of some city, and I saw a church on a corner, I would not fear that place. I would think of that place as a place of safety. I would think the people inside are not people that I need fear, but people who would, in fact, help me if I asked them. (Yeah, they might ask me if I want a Bible or if I believe in Jesus. OH MY GOSH! How horrible! How judgmental of them! SUCH ANGUISH!)

People who resort to stereotypes of religious people, and Christians in particular, simply reveal their own insecurities and self-deception. I know--I used to think of my Christian relatives as "self-righteous" and "close-minded"--meanwhile I lived a hedonistic lifestyle. Of course, I patted myself on the back for being "open-minded" that virtue anybody can claim--the virtue of simply caring nothing about what anybody does. A virtue that requires no sacrifice or effort; a virtue a murdering serial rapist can claim to possess.

I eventually realized I was the self-righteous one who heaped more accusations and condemnation on my religious relatives than they ever did on anyone! Sure, they weren't perfect, but the main thing I could accuse them of was "self-righteousness", a popular accusation the decadent make against those who live upright lives. I was like Hollywood when it is busy hating on Christians or disparaging small-town people. Ironic now that I think of it. Hollywood preaching about how bad and close-minded people are in small towns. Yeah, I guess small-town folks should be taking their cues on how to live upright lives from Hollywood, that bastion of righteousness in the world, setting the example for the rest of us to follow!

People who think Christians should be like hippies walking around saying, "let's all just get along," have warped ideas of who Jesus is and what Christianity is about. It's not about making people feel good and happy and enjoying life.

Jesus OFFENDED many people. He had very hard things to say if people will actually read what he said. Jesus warned people who wanted to follow him that those who followed him would have trouble in the world, that they would be persecuted. He even told his followers that they would be HATED. NOT LOVED. He said that the world hated him first, and that they should not be surprised when the world hates them as well.

So when you non-Christians are hating on Christians and talking about how vile Christians are, you are simply doing what Christ said would happen. You are acting EXACTLY the way Christ said you would. And Christians are receiving the EXACT kind of hatred that he said they would receive. That is why he told his followers they were Blessed when they were mocked and persecuted and hated! He said they were being treated the same way the prophets of old were treated. The prophets of old were not loved by the world, but hated by it.

Christians are NOT supposed to be popular! Christians are called to be a light in the world. But eyes accustomed to darkness do not receive light with joy. We all know what it's like to wake up in the morning and somebody throws on the light. We want to go back to darkness.

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

You have completely hit the nail on the head. You think Christians know better than other folk and think your book tells you you should hover over people babbling about how you're so good and other people are not. Your Jesus tells you to get ready for it and if they're not getting push back then they're not good enough Christians.

Some people hate Christians but I am not one of them. I grew up going to church and my mom still goes. It's just not for me and the primary reason is the rabid hypocrisy and in your face self-righteousness of so many devout Christians.

Listen, I am not about to judge whether anyone is hedonistic or a secluded monk. I just don't care. Most people who have been raised by decent folk no right from wrong on a general human level. That's what I care about and to me that is the barometer we should all live by. And I don't need any religious person telling me *beep* about my life. I know I am a very good and decent person and beyond that no Christian has any morale authority to judge anything about my life. Not what TV I watch, not what video games I play, not what scientific knowledge I learn in school, not who I have sex with and not who I love and marry. You simply have no morale authority over me.

If religion stays out of my living room, my classroom, my bedroom and sticks to that church on the corner you mentioned then I'm good with you. Ecstatic. If you stray from that we're going to have a problem and until that equilibrium is reached I'm going to bash every example of hypocritical, self-righteous dogma I see.

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[–] wintermonk 10 years ago

"Listen, I am not about to judge whether anyone is hedonistic or a secluded monk. I just don't care. Most people who have been raised by decent folk no right from wrong on a general human level. That's what I care about and to me that is the barometer we should all live by. And I don't need any religious person telling me *beep* about my life. I know I am a very good and decent person and beyond that no Christian has any morale authority to judge anything about my life. Not what TV I watch, not what video games I play, not what scientific knowledge I learn in school, not who I have sex with and not who I love and marry. You simply have no morale authority over me. "

Yeah, but you must understand that these statements are judgments you are making according to the morality you live by. Other people don't live by your little code of morality. Some people think it is perfectly acceptable, even their duty, to try and help others, and sometimes that means pointing out behaviors that are self-destructive, even if the other person doesn't want to hear it or doesn't agree. You THINK some things you do are acceptable. Sorry, some people disagree. Should they live by your beliefs or their own? If I see somebody drowning, I'm going to help the person, whether they want it or not. Yeah, they might believe they are in no danger. But I'm not going to live according to their belief, but mine. Similarly, I think you're expecting religious people to live by your beliefs and not theirs. The Bible commands Christians to go out and make disciples of all nations. Do you really think Christians ought to disregard this command to make you happy? What kind of Christian would they be when the intentionally disobey what they believe to be the command of God in order to spare some people some moments of discomfort?

And you may say nobody has moral authority to judge anything about your life, but that is simply your opinion and other people don't live by it. In fact, this statement implies that people are wrong or bad if they do judge you. Which means YOU are judging people who judge you, and you are therefore just as guilty of judging others as you say they are guilty of judging you.

Moral judgments are part of human nature. I think you need to get used to it.

"If religion stays out of my living room, my classroom, my bedroom and sticks to that church on the corner you mentioned then I'm good with you."

You're free to do what you want in your home, and public-school classrooms are neutral/non-religious. So fret not.

However, you shouldn't expect religious people to confine religion to church for one hour a week. It seems you'll be happy with religious people if they will be functional atheists in society but can indulge their desire for religion from ten to eleven on Sunday. Sorry, but you accuse religious people of being hypocrites, but now here you are demanding that they be so--that they be religious in private but put on a secular face in society. That's as ridiculous as expecting atheists to be atheists in private but act religious in public. Religious people who live out their faith are being honest. A belief that does not influence actions and behavior is no belief at all. Religious people will NOT confine their religion to the church on the corner, because that would mean they believe in God until they leave the church building, in which case, they suddenly must act as if there is no god at all. That is being two-faced, double-minded, and hypocritical.

I think you need to get used to seeing and being exposed to ideas, religious or otherwise, with which you disagree. I don't like it when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door. But you know what, they are Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe God commands them to do such things. Should I expect them to disregard what they believe to be the commands of God so that I might not have to go and answer the door? Sorry, but this is--in my humble opinion--a rather egocentric way of looking at things. That's acting as if my personal moral code is the one everyone should live by, whether they share my beliefs or not. That is unrealistic and, quite frankly, arrogant.

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

I LOVE you. I completely understand everything you are saying and everyone reading this should recognize that you represent what people hate about Christians. We are clearly at an impasse. You are the definition of the in your face religious person that feels it is their right and duty to invade other people's lives to spout your *beep* Fine, I do understand it.

Now you need to understand that you are the reason the push back can get extreme. In fact you do not have the right to impose any of your beliefs on me. And if you try it you'll learn very quickly that we are all equals and when you try to exert morale superiority over someone else you might get hit with a world of hurt. There is nothing arrogant about that.

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[–] wintermonk 10 years ago

I'm not an "in your face" religious person. I'm just trying to get you to see religious people's point of view.

And by the way, atheists can be just as "in your face" as anyone. Somebody says "Jesus" in an acceptance speech and they want to file a lawsuit and act as if their right are being infringed upon because they were put through the torment of hearing someone say Jesus.

Sorry, it's not in-your-face. It's simply living in a world in which people have different beliefs, customs, traditions, and ideas. And accepting that this is so.

It's ironic that lot of the same people who preach "diversity" whine about other people's beliefs when they are exposed to them. It seems they want everyone to conform to one public persona so that nobody is made to feel uncomfortable. This is not diversity but conformity.

"In fact you do not have the right to impose any of your beliefs on me."

Who is imposing a belief on you? Nobody is putting a gun to your head. Believe what you wish! This is laughable nonsense. People hear somebody say, "There is a God" and they act like they are living in some middle-eastern country where somebody has a sword to your throat and is commanding you to convert or die.

Nobody is doing that to you, so lose this rubbish about anybody imposing their beliefs on you. You are free to worship the fungus growing on your big toe if you wish.

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[–] surf-10 10 years ago

As I said wintermonk I do understand your point of view. I don't know why you keep thinking I don't understand exactly where you are coming from. And whenever I try to keep it simple and direct you come back with tangents that are not really on point such as your comment about Jesus coming up in an acceptance speech. Others may come at you for that but not me and I am on your side with your pet peeves in that vein.

I 100% accept and adore that you have your beliefs and I am not trying to force you to change them. You should feel free and safe to speak about your relationship with God and not feel bullied. But your beliefs are yours and as we are all free people they should only be yours. If someone else wants to adopt them that's great. But they shouldn't feel pressured to nor put in a situation where their rights to a happy life are stepped on by not assimilating.

Now here is the kicker so lets pay attention. If you are sitting here with a straight face trying to tell us all that Christians do not attempt to impose their beliefs on others then you are straight lying. You know it and everyone reading this knows it. That is why this country spent so much effort laying out its separation of church and state stance. But throughout history and even today non-believers have to fight tooth and nail to maintain it. If you are not honest enough to admit this then it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you. You should go to your corner and pretend to still not understand why some people lash out at Christians.

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[–] wintermonk 10 years ago

"If someone else wants to adopt them that's great. But they shouldn't feel pressured to nor put in a situation where their rights to a happy life are stepped on by not assimilating. "

But sometimes this idea of "feeling pressured" is taken to whiny extremes. Like if a teacher has a Bible in his desk. Does that mean students now feel pressured to become Christians if one of them spots that Bible while a drawer is opened? See, what get's called "pressure" sometimes is silly and nothing but childish whining. Do I believe in religious freedom or the right to be completely irreligious? Sure, but I also believe in the right of people to attempt to persuade people, and not just about religious things but anything in general. That is freedom of speech. It might be annoying to hear some KKK person on a corner saying what he says, but unlike you, I do NOT believe people have a right to a happy life. You have the right to PURSUE it. Big difference. Other people have the right to say what they want and to try to persuade all they want. As long as you are free to disagree with other people, there is no pressure.

"If you are sitting here with a straight face trying to tell us all that Christians do not attempt to impose their beliefs on others then you are straight lying. You know it and everyone reading this knows it."

Can you give an example of a Christian IMPOSING his/her beliefs on other people? I think you confuse an attempt to persuade with an attempt to impose. There is a huge difference. People engage in attempts to persuade all the time. That is what television commercials do. Political speeches. We are constantly being told to change this or change that or believe this or believe that. That is persuasive dialogue and it is perfectly okay. That is part of free speech whether you like it or not. People are perfectly free to tell you that such-and-such behavior is sinful or that you should wear green every third Thursday of the month, or whatever, so long as you are FREE TO DISAGREE, your rights are not being infringed.

And the separation of church and state (which is not even in the constitution--but a loose paraphrase of the "establishment clause") was to keep there from being a state church. The United Kingdom had a Church of England. America didn't want that, where the law forced you to be a certain religion. That's why the establishment clause says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Congress is not allow to pass laws that establishes a state religion. That's ALL that the establishment clause says. It does not say religious teenagers can't say Jesus when giving a graduation speech. The establishment clause addresses one group of people and one group only: congress. It prohibits them from establishing a state religion. It says nothing about what graduating teens may or may not say in their speeches! Well, actually the 1st amendment does say people have freedom of speech and religion, so it seems people can say "Jesus" and "God" anywhere they want as much as they want.

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[–] jigalini 10 years ago

I seen first 2 minutes of film, and in it they attacked Christians, equated them with ignorant and racist, so I saw where it was going, I stopped watching You are correct, big time double standard exists.

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[–] nilbog44 10 years ago

Christians aren't intelligent. They think that Adam and Eve and Noah's ark are true stories and they deny things like evolution. Religion holds our species back. So there is nothing for you to be upset about.

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[–] majandralover30 10 years ago

what about muslims and jews don't they believe the same stuff

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] majandralover30 10 years ago

it is far easier to focus on a few unrepresentative sample than the overall majority, and when all the human mind's attention focuses on it, the ten gets switched with 9 and the 10% becomes 90% as far as the rest goes.

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[–] 10 years ago

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