MovieChat Forums > Fireproof (2008) Discussion > I Am Giving Up On Christianity...

I Am Giving Up On Christianity...

posted 14 years ago by ThePlusDizzle
200 replies | jump to latest

That's right, I'm giving up on Christianity. Because some aspects about it just don't seem right to me.

What's bothering me most about it is the Christian attitude towards homosexuality. Now, I'm not homosexual, but I know many people who are. And I used to be against it, blindly, because my church told me to be. But as I think more and more about it... why the hate and condemning??? So a person is not attractive to the opposite sex... does this mean that they're wrong to be attracted to the same sex and that they're going to hell because of this???

Consider this. No, seriously... hear me out and think about this. Imagine, if you will, that you are in love with somebody. Completely and fully in love. You'd do anything for this person, you care about this person more than anything else. You love them, and they love you. They're the one for you. One day, a new law is passed that the person you love must line up with certain guidelines, or else you can't be with them. Let's imagine the government was really like this, controlling who we are supposed to love and be with. And let's say the person you loved didn't match up with the guidelines you were supposed to follow. So now apparently you two can't be together. But you LOVE this person! How could such a thing happen? Are you really supposed to now break up with the love of your life and go find someone else who supposedly "matches" up with you, according to law? Are you REALLY supposed to say, ""You know what, they're right. I truly love this person, but just to be safe, I'd better break up with my love and go find someone else that I am 'supposed' to be with."

NO. This would NEVER happen. So why is Christianity trying to control who people are supposed to LOVE and BE WITH? How dare you try to tell someone who to love and who not to?? You can't control who a person falls in love with!! A person CANNOT be condemned for FALLING IN LOVE. I don't care what gender, NOBODY can or should be condemned for loving another human being. A person cannot help who they fall in love with. Can YOU? Like the color of a person's skin, a person's sexuality, most of the time, cannot be chosen. If a person loves and is attracted to the same gender, how on earth is it right to force them to love the opposite gender, when clearly they can't? How can you possibly believe that it is a sin to love someone... no matter who it is...

Christians need to stop referring to the OLD Testament and start turning their attention on this topic to the NEW Testament, what JESUS says. JESUS taught love. He hung around the "minorities" and everyone was welcome to listen to the vital life lessons he taught. He said "Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself". Why are Christians openly hating gay people so much? Or, the so-called "sin" of gay people? Jesus wouldn't be condemning them. Jesus wouldn't hate them. Jesus would show them love. Jesus wouldn't turn them away. Christians need to do the same, but sadly, it doesn't seem like it's going to happen. If they want to change, they'll change. If not, well, I can't say I'd blame them.

Anyway, I don't know if this all flowed well together, but I knew I wanted to say something about homosexuality, and the fact that I'm giving up on Christianity because not many Christians are seeing sense about the topic, and I don't want to be included anymore.

I'm giving up on Christianity... to follow Jesus. He is the way. He is love. Not discrimination, hate, or condemning.

[–] Machete_93 14 years ago

Well your right about some things, Jesus would love them however he wouldn't promote what they may be doing. It seems the Christians your talking about are the ones that focus only on homosexuality and not anything else. Don't give up for these reasons just focus on the good things.

[–] dbrown172 14 years ago

Christ died on the cross for our sins. Our sins. Not "their" sins. Not that group over there. Not "those" people's sins. He died for our sins. That means all of us. There is nobody I can point a finger at and say, "I'm less of a sinner than he."I nailed Christ's hands to the cross, and I speared Him in the side. Yet He loves me still...and forever.

[–] BrainGremlin 14 years ago

Don't flatter yourself.

In all my life, I will never love a woman the way this officer loved that lip ferret.

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[–] jemmy-casey 14 years ago

So the OP should just ignore the bad things in their belief system? Who wrote the Bible? Men did, men who said that it was the inspired word of God. Do you have faith these men? Why?

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[–] mizsuz 14 years ago

ofuoko said:

"True Christianity is being in a relationship with Christ. There is no such thing as serving Him outside of being a Christian. Either you are His friend, or you are His enemy."

Thank you for this incredibly long rant that further proves religion has missed its mark, breeds hate, discontent, and willful ignorance. That religion is the thing that has killed the teachings of all the loving sages, including Jesus, in the world - and turned them into canon fodder.

The person in me who wishes to allow you your right to be a putz, no matter how much I disagree with you, wants me to shake my head and sadly walk away - as I usually do.

The fascist in me wants to point at you and scream "SEE?!? This is why religion must be abolished!!!" Sort of like Christians pointing at others and screaming "SEE?!? Sinners must be abolished!!!"

I truly hope the majority of humanity realizes soon that religion is not required to live in spirit. Because honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw anything beautiful come out of a church, synagogue, temple or alter.

Were I a fascist I would call for your end. Fortunately, I am not a fascist nor do I worship a God that requires fascism (like you).

Edited to add: For the record, should you wish to make an argument for your religion in the hopes of swaying people to it or representing it in a positive, attractive light then I recommend finding another basis for your arguments. The only people who accept the bible as anything other than a book are the people who are already Christians. It does not advance your argument with those of us who see it as man's manipulation of the lemmings....errr...masses.

If you're not making your arguments in an attempt to represent your religion then you must be pontificating. That's fine, but let us know if that's what you're doing so we can ignore you before we open the post.

[–] DCI77 13 years ago

Don't flatter yourself.

[–] challenger503 12 years ago

I can definitely see the love in ofuoko71's statement. I can definitely see the hate in yours."were I a fascist I would call for your end" give me a break. First of all, 99% of homosexual don't want to be married. They choose this lifestyle because it is promiscuous in it's nature. There are plenty of studies that show their overwhelmingly higher numbers of multiple partners as compared with hetero. It's all about rebelling from Daddy and, eventually, Big Daddy(God). They want gay marriage to be legal for two reasons. One is financial the other is normalization. They know what their doing is rebelling, but if they can get society to think it's normal behavior then they think they're off the hook. God gives clear warning throughout the word that it is an abomination. Christians will not accept this lifestyle into their communities because they fear the wrath of God(re:Sodom and Gomorrah).
Yes, all humans are sinners but God has given us a way out of eternal damnation. All it takes is repentance of sin and accepting Jesus as the living Son of God who shed his blood and died as the ultimate sacrifice for you to live eternally. Yes, Jesus says to "love one another" and that is why we want to tell people that there is a way out, and only one way. If we didn't love you, we wouldn't tell you. So, next time someone walks up to you and wants to share the Good News with you, know that they're only doing it out of love for you.

[–] uther8 12 years ago

". They choose this lifestyle because it is promiscuous in it's nature."

An absolute lie and a show of your gross ignorance.

"It's all about rebelling from Daddy and, eventually, Big Daddy(God). "

Ditto...

Well done - you've shown yourself to be an ignorant, intolerant bigot. How very Christian of you.

Moron.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" - Goethe

[–] geode 12 years ago

First of all, 99% of homosexual don't want to be married. They choose this lifestyle because it is promiscuous in it's nature.

This has not been the case with the gay friends I have had over the years.

There are plenty of studies that show their overwhelmingly higher numbers of multiple partners as compared with hetero.

Please cite some sources about this.

God gives clear warning throughout the word that it is an abomination.

Then why is homosexuality referenced so few times in the Bible, and not once from Jesus Christ ? If Jesus (God in the flesh) thought the subject to be so important, why did he not bring it up when he ministered on earth ?

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

[–] TerpStudent 11 years ago

You're absolutely right! Straight people are never sexually promiscuous, and all straight couples get married and never cheat on each other.

And you're definitely right about gays "choosing their lifestyle" because Lord knows choosing to be gay is just as easy as choosing to be straight.

(in case you didn't catch it, all the above is sarcasm)

Ignore the trolls! Any failure to do so will only grant them the satisfaction they seek!

[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

although known as, 'The Word of God', these passages you are quoting are from a book which was penned by man (regardless of how you look at it), therefore a book translated by man. One man's predjudice could've led to this being written and not 'The Word of God'. If you don't love and accept these people for who they are, then you too are a sinner (and please, PLEASE don't find a passage to argue that little statement).

Homosexuality is not a sin, otherwise love in general would have to be considered one. Wake up and stop hiding behind a mask.

I am a Christian, but unlike you, I'm not judgemental. As for the born-again statements, I disagree. The idea of needing to be 'born again' is beyond me. The way I can see, it works as a cover for sinners. It suggests that the most evil person can be 'saved' at that moment before death and be accepted into heaven. Where does the logic lie among this?

----- and seeing this is a film forum, I'd better comment on 'Fireproof'. It was a poorly constructed film with good ambition. Unfortunately the direction, acting, dialogue and cinematography kept me too distant from the messages it was attempting to portray.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

Great, so Hitler could be up in Heaven. For all we know he got 'saved', and I am now a bigger sinner than him. Please listen to yourself.

A movie was made for you, it was called, "Saved". Have you seen? Raised some great points about hypocrisy.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

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[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

So you would happily stand-up in front of a crowd relatives of those who lost their lives in the holocaust, and tell them proudly, that Hitler is as much of a sinner as they are, and their ancestors were?

If not, you are truly a hypocrit, and do not love God (using your theory). Don't just write, 'Yes', when you respond to this. Write it out proudly, if that's how strongly you feel about this matter.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

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[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

Seeing that admin deleted your previous post, I'm going to assume that you wrote what I told you to. Do you not see how brainwashed you are? I have faith in Christianity, but I also have reason. You are idiotic/naive and downright stupid if you ACTUALLY believe what you are saying. I actually hope that you one day do say that aloud in public, just so you can see how people will react. We live in the now. To actually believe that everybody is equally sinners (comparing Hitler to those who died in the Holocaust as an example), you anger me, and I'm sure millions around the world.

I pray that you get well soon, because I'd hate to live as somebody like yourself, with such evil beliefs as posted above regarding Hitler and those like him.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] sixerschik36 14 years ago

wait are you saying that people who died in the Holocaust are sinner and thats why they died? I think the person is trying to say that no sin is bigger than any other sin. if you kill someone its the same as if you steal from someone or lie to some one. So Hitler killing all those people weighs the same as you stealing money from someone sin wise.

[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

That's exactly what they are trying to say, and exactly what they shouldn't be saying. They've taken it completely out of context. And they should be removed from imdb if they haven't already for their hurtful comments. Religious beliefs or no religious beliefs, it's irrelevant on a board like this. They're evil words.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] actionmanrandell 11 years ago

you say he is being idiotic yet you claim to be a christian god clearly said that all sins are equal the only sin you can not be forgiven of is blasphemy
to say otherwise is simply not listening to what god has said

[–] steriofish1 14 years ago

Hitler is not in heaven! He has to stand before Jesus for all that he has done! Killing millions of people! Yes God loves him, but he can't stand for what he has done.

But what Ofoku is trying to say is that, God has so much mercy for EVERYBODY that he will forgive those who ask for forgivness.

God loves homosexuals but it's very clear that he doesn't love what they do. It's not what nature intended. Two men can't have a baby. But man and a wife can. That is a proof for me that God's intentions for sexual love was between man and woman. Call that discrimination, but then you have to call the nature sexist too.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] PureAmbition 13 years ago

Why would I call nature sexist? Is there not countless alternatives to birthing a child? Are you claiming Science is the anti-christ if we utilize these methods? God has enabled science to allow ALL couples to have children. Why can't you see that?

And if you're going to rant on about how homosexual couples can't "naturally" have kids, then you should note that nobody uses a midwife anymore, nor do people make butter by hand. We have evolved. If you're against homosexuality, then you might as well be against your cellphone or your computer. We never had them in Jesus's day, we never could call each other further than three feet away from each other. I guess God intended for us not to use cellphones either, by your logic.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] actionmanrandell 11 years ago

god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and all the surrounding cities because of sexual immorality.
homosexuality was largely practiced in all of those cities and god destroyed them just because of that.
to say that god condones homosexuality then you are not listening to what god had to say

[–] actionmanrandell 11 years ago

yes because that is exactly what god said
he didn't say that one sin is more powerful then another he said all sins are equal in his eyes and that if you have done one sin you have done all sins. ie if you commit a theft then you have committed all other sins

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] mizsuz 13 years ago

Quoting the bible as the validity of Christianity is like saying "because I said so." It's not a valid argument at all.

[–] SunNumberOne 12 years ago

"Alright let's get this bull sh!t over with..."
-Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm

[–] kenday1 8 years ago

Okay. So what is your definition of Christianity?! The Bible is about Christianity unless you are speaking of some other bible.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] mwotton 14 years ago

"Homosexuality is not a sin, otherwise love in general would have to be considered one. Wake up and stop hiding behind a mask."

Are you a member of NAMBLA? Or do you condone it in any way? Homosexuality, like any sin, starts with desires that are not as God intended or commanded. Feeding, dwelling on, and succumbing to those desires is what makes it sin.

Those desires do not define you, it is the way you act on them. Desiring someone else's spouse doesn't make you an adulterer. Wanting to kill someone does not make you a murderer. Desiring someone of the same sex does not make you a homosexual. Desiring children sexually does not make you a paedophile. Being tempted to take that pile of cash does not make you a thief. But the more you allow these desires to take hold, the more difficult they are to contain, until eventually you give in to them. Then you become controlled by your desires, rather than you maintaining control of them. Now you are defined by your actions.

The difference is that in these days, homosexual desires or desires for someone other than your spouse are preached (yes, preached) as normal, not to be controlled, but to be proud of. To suppress these desires is to "deny your true self". What BS.

And to the OP: you might give up on Christianity, it's just a religion after all. But it's awesome that Christ won't give up on you.

[–] actionmanrandell 11 years ago

the bible clearly says that simply thinking something is as good as doing it
the bible says that if you have thoughts of theft it is the same thing as theft.
having the thoughts of murder is the same thing as murder .

[–] kenday1 13 years ago

To krazed nutz...

I am confused on how you can call yourself a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. It was Jesus who told the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born-again to be able to see the kingdom of God.
(St John Chapter 3).

If you think the Bible is possibly flawed, on what basis is your belief as a Christian?

[–] krazed_nutz 13 years ago

Apologies for not being narrow-minded. I'm guessing you're also one of those who condemn homosexuals for following the path God set for them.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] actionmanrandell 11 years ago

God did not make them homosexuals
your not being narrow minded your being idiotic
the bible clearly condemns homosexuality therefor god condemns it since. god is the author of the bibe

[–] uther8 11 years ago

"God did not make them homosexuals "

If god created everything, he created homosexuals.

"your not being narrow minded your being idiotic "

YOU'RE showing your idiocy an lack of education.

"god is the author of the bibe"

The BIBLE was written by men. Not god.

Sheesh, what an imbecile.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" - Goethe

[–] fireprooph 13 years ago

hmmmm I'm trying to figure out where to start here... first of all, I am a Christian, but I cannot agree with what you guys are saying. For one thing, if you believe the Bible is incorrect then you must believe the Bible is COMPLETELY incorrect, you cannot decide what is right or wrong based on what you are comfortable with. If you believe in the Bible, then you must believe in every part including where it says homosexuality is a sin. Just as a note here, I am not condemning every person with homosexual tendencies to hell, simply because they can't help but be attracted to their sex. We live in a sinful world (Everybody really does agree with this- I've never met someone who truly does not believe in sin.) and each of us has different struggles with different sins. Just because some sins are legal in our society (i.e. gossip, deceit, other sexual sins) does not make them any less which is why Jesus said to not point out the sliver in the other persons eye before removing the plank in your own. Still I do believe homosexuality is a sin (Note: NOT having homosexual tendencies and being attracted to someone of the opposite gender but giving in to that desire is the sin) I know homosexuals that agree 100% in this and have chosen to abstain just as I struggle with other issues and have to choose to stay away from them.

The thing is, not a single person on earth actually deserves to be loved, I've done so many hurtful things to people, so have you and everyone else, even if they don't admit it, and humans are sooo selfish, we all think that just because it's what we want makes it completely ok to get but it's so not true. The amazing thing about grace is that it is not in any way shape or form what anyone on this earth deserves and we are given it freely if we desire it, THAT'S what love is. Us as humans have degraded love to be about self satisfaction, but it's not, it's about someone giving up EVERYTHING for someone that doesn't deserve it, it blows my mind every time I think about it.

Christians don't live lives this way because we think that we're better than other people, or look down on people, it's because it's no longer about us, it's about him and we are choosing to live life according to that.

Please just keep looking, I hope you don't see all christians as self seeking hypocrites (although their are plenty and I often find myself being one) please don't judge people by assuming they are judging you.
Sorry if these thought are jumbled and so sorry if it comes across as me being a jerk cause that is not where my heart is, and seriously, if you want to ask me anything you can.

Also as a note about the movie, I agree it's not the best made movie, but I actually like it pretty well, I normally don't like christian movies, cause they're cheesy and cliched, but I thought this one was a breath of fresh air, one thing to remember is that their budget for the entire film was lower than what most studios spend on the just the credits for movies, so you can't expect it to be amazing, and they're were some badly acted characters, but the mains did a fine job and the spirit of the movie came across regardless.

[–] uther8 13 years ago

"Their budget for the entire film was lower than what most studios spend on the just the credits for movies, so you can't expect it to be amazing"

This is an oft used excuse, but it is just an excuse. Lack of money is not responsible for lack of creativity.

Look at "Monsters" it cost less than $800,000, not much more than Fireproof, yet gained respect and acclaim worldwide for its inventiveness, creativity and performances. It won several awards and had an international release.

The Blair Witch Project cost a fraction of Fireproof (less than $60,000) yet grossed millions. There are many notable films which were low budget yet still managed to make money and acclaim.

Money is an excuse. Nothing more.

[–] homestar_is_cool 13 years ago

Even better: "El Mariachi" was made for $7000. And it's one of the best films ever made. Inventive, humorous, tense, and quirky.

"Stranger Than Paradise" cost $100,000 to make. Again, it's one of the most praised films of all time.

[–] Sweet_Canela1 14 years ago

1st what does this topic have to do with the movie???

1 Corithians 6:9-11 I agree with all the words of this. Problem is most Christians don't. And because they don't they come off as hypocrites. That scripture clearly says homosexuality is a sin EQUAL to fornication (sex outside the bonds of marraige of any type, beastiality, etc.) and adultery (cheating on one's mate). If most churches could stop pointing fingers and work on all the sins perhaps they wouldn't be accused so much of being hypocrites.

[–] Borg222 14 years ago

really really limited attitude. Read it in a book and follow rules. Gad. So glad I am not Christain but follow Christain values...the good ones. Good luck with your limited thinking.
Likes movies, taken away, but thoughtfull

[–] krazed_nutz 13 years ago

Spot on mate. It's about the values (well the values that don't condemn innocent people such as homosexuals).

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] allblacks-1 13 years ago

There is no such thing as serving Him outside of being a Christian. Either you are His friend, or you are His enemy.

^ that's just scary.

Thank you for your attention.

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

"^ that's just scary."

Proverbs 9:10

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

Excellent post, ofuoku71!

As a Christian, mature in the Lord, I can attest that everything you've stated is accurate.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] wevemoved 12 years ago

I cannot buy that Jesus is God since Jesus himself says he is not God in Mark 10: 17-18.

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

[–] blynnpatton 14 years ago

Men did not just write the Bible, and it is the inspired word of God.

[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

it was written by the hand of man, however you look at it.

I have faith, but at the same time, the possibility of both manipulation, and a case of 'lost in translation' isn't off the cards.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

"I have faith, but at the same time, the possibility of both manipulation, and a case of 'lost in translation' isn't off the cards. "

Sorry to say this, but this is the truth: then your faith is small.

How can you believe in a God that created the heavens and the earth, yet this God is too small to preserve HIS WORD, the word that He has "God-breathed"?

2 Timothy 3:16,17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[–] SunNumberOne 12 years ago

Bla bla bla bla...

"I'm a HUMAN BEING and I'm writing this book that I will call the Bible, and I will say along the way that 'God breathed the words into me' and therefore all of humanity must obey the words of this book for thousands of years..."

Give me a f_cking break...

"Alright let's get this bull sh!t over with..."
-Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm

[–] kenday1 13 years ago

You cannot become a Christian without believing in the Bible. How can we tell that the Bible is believable?

The Bible tells of future events written long ago (hundreds of years ago and at least a thousand+ years ago) which have been fulfilled today. Some of these future events involve the nation of Israel...some have already become to pass and there is more yet to come. Study the Jewish people and compare it to what the Bible says about them. God has kept the nation of Israel alive despite many nations trying to destroy them. How could this tiny nation survive?
The Bible has passed the test of time. The Bible is actually authenticated by history! The Bible was written over a period of time by a number of holy men as they were moved by the Holy Spirit of God.

Back to the original discussion of homosexuality...read Romans Chapter 1 verses 16 through 32. The main excerpt regarding homosexuality is in verse 25-28 which says, (NKJV)-- "...who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due..."

If you will think about it, all of the things God forbids us to do is really for our own good. Think about the 10 commandments...how wonderful the world would be if all obeyed them. When any of them are broken, someone and usually many are hurt or harmed in some way by it. God is love and knows what is best for us. We will all be tempted in this world to do things we shouldn't but that does not mean we have to act on them.

[–] miguelrodriguesbapti-1 9 years ago

I have faith in whatever ideology written by men I choose to have. That is my freedom as a human being.

[–] ritechus 14 years ago

hopefully ya'll will eventually give up on the silly notion that jesus was a prophet for this imaginary person you all like to call god. time to wake up and realize this is all bs.

[–] phraserazer 14 years ago

I say this in a facetious manner, but hopefully people like ritechus will realize he or she is a figment of his or her own imagination and wink out of their supposed existence in a nanosecond. Could this be another evolutionist and/or athiest hating on Christians? Gee, darn, nothing new. Same old boring cop out.

Why don't people wake up and realize you they're wrong when they say God is imaginary? Answer is because they are too stubborn and too lost. The Bible says some will not turn away from satan and the world because they love it too much. They love their money, their toys, and their pleasure, and their own free will too much to submit their will to their creator.

I know God and Jesus are real. I died and met them. You and anyone else can say it was all my imagination, and then I'll say, well so are you. Your imaginary self imagined they typed something that wouldn't even begin to sway a believer in God and Jesus.

Everything happens for a reason and the reason is GOD. He works in mysterious ways. The trouble is that people are too stubborn to open their hearts and minds to what they can't fully understand as human beings... and that is God. We're not meant to fully understand a being that is so far beyond us. If you truly love, then you truly know God, because God is love.

Renee

Live for our Father in Heaven

[–] ritechus 14 years ago

I don't hate Christians. I was raised one during most of my childhood. I have respect for everyone. However, I have come to realize that it is very unlikely that a god exists and as such, those who claim he absolutely does exist have their heads up their collective butts - and those that insist they have seen IT are delusional at best.

And furthermore, I don't believe in Satan either. That is a christian invention. I do love my money and toys and pleasure much in the same way as you like hearing your own voice, but I am not an immoral person - you don't have to believe in god to be a moral and good person. Our minds are very complex and we are always looking to assign reason to something - as young children we are very susceptible to indoctrination. And as adults we struggle with undoing that thing that was ingrained in us as young children - it took me a long time but I had help from the countless ignorant human beings who call themselves christians who continued to prove what idiots they really are. I am not a lesser being because I don't believe - I consider myself enlightened and open to more possibility. You are closed and prejudicial, but I don't think you lack the ability to wake up from your delusion. Good luck with that.

[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

actually many scientist have said it is immpossible for the universe to exist with out a omnipotent god einstein even said this the only thing einstien didnt believe is that god cares for us.

[–] ritechus 14 years ago

Are you referring to this quote: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings"?

Einstein also said this:

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

and this:

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

But this does not clearly sponsor a christian god or anything of the sort. And again, a theory rather than cold hard facts.

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

"I don't hate Christians. I was raised one during most of my childhood. I have respect for everyone. However, I have come to realize that it is very unlikely that a god exists and as such, those who claim he absolutely does exist have their heads up their collective butts - and those that insist they have seen IT are delusional at best."

1 Corithians 1:20

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

[–] katesgram2000 12 years ago

Why is it unlikely that God exists? Look around you-all of creation is proof enough for me. How anyone can believe all of this just happened is beyond me.There is just so much that is amazing about the whole of creation that I cannot fathom any of it being here without God creating it.

Supposedly there was this primordial soup that everything came out of-or supposedly there was some kind of cosmic bang and everything came from that.

Okay-where did the "soup" come from and what caused the big bang?

You cannot get something from nothing.

I could take eggs,flour,shortening,etc. and place them in the oven-even going so far as turning the oven on and I would never get a cake even in a million years- unless I mixed it all together in the right proportions. That is a bit like evolutionists believe and I am going a step further in providing the ingredients.

Look around you-creation is just way to complex for it to have just happened God made it and He made YOU and He loves you---please change before it is too late.

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

"I say this in a facetious manner, but hopefully people like ritechus will realize he or she is a figment of his or her own imagination and wink out of their supposed existence in a nanosecond. Could this be another evolutionist and/or athiest hating on Christians? Gee, darn, nothing new. Same old boring cop out.

Why don't people wake up and realize you they're wrong when they say God is imaginary? Answer is because they are too stubborn and too lost. The Bible says some will not turn away from satan and the world because they love it too much. They love their money, their toys, and their pleasure, and their own free will too much to submit their will to their creator.

I know God and Jesus are real. I died and met them. You and anyone else can say it was all my imagination, and then I'll say, well so are you. Your imaginary self imagined they typed something that wouldn't even begin to sway a believer in God and Jesus.

Everything happens for a reason and the reason is GOD. He works in mysterious ways. The trouble is that people are too stubborn to open their hearts and minds to what they can't fully understand as human beings... and that is God. We're not meant to fully understand a being that is so far beyond us. If you truly love, then you truly know God, because God is love.

Renee"

AMEN Sister!

[–] blynnpatton 14 years ago

God is not imaginary.

[–] ritechus 14 years ago

prove it!

[–] Remnant_Of_The_Abyss 13 years ago

Prove it yourself, atheist. Do your own homework, nobody here is your mamma!

And nobody here is going to give an answer to someone who is confrontational, arrogant, and mocking.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] jinx72 14 years ago

Let's try something:

"What's bothering me most about it is the Christian attitude towards pornography. Now, I don't use pornography, but I know many people who do. And I used to be against it, blindly, because my church told me to be. But as I think more and more about it... why the hate and condemning??? So a person is attracted to pornography... does this mean that they're wrong to be attracted to pornography and that they're going to hell because of this???"

Or:

"What's bothering me most about it is the Christian attitude towards stealing. Now, I'm not thief, but I know many people who are. And I used to be against it, blindly, because my church told me to be. But as I think more and more about it... why the hate and condemning??? So a person steals... does this mean that they're wrong to steal and that they're going to hell because of this???"

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] grumpybear_22 14 years ago

uther8 your missing jinx72's point by a mile... a SIN is a SIN

daveramsey.com "Best thing to ever happen to us" Are you weird too?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

ok well the bible says that if you have looked at any woman with lust you have commited adultary in the eyes of god and since your lusting after the people in porn therefore in the eyes of god you have sinned

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] marinquiet 14 years ago

The word "pornography" doesn't have to be included in the bible for you to understand that it's a sin.

Matthew 6:27-28 (Teaching about Adultery)

Jesus says: "You have heard the commandment that says, 'YOU MUST NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.' But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] marinquiet 14 years ago

wow, fantasizing is lust because you're thinking about it. Read it again. Jesus says: "You have heard the commandment that says, 'YOU MUST NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.' But I say, anyone who even looks (or fantasize) at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Do not interpret what you want or what you think He means. Man makes errors all the time. Jesus Christ who is God, doesn't make errors.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] marinquiet 14 years ago

I know that was my insertion, smart one Nimrod.

"So the helpless has hope, and unrighteousness must shut its mouth. Behold, how happy is the man whom God reproves, so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
JOB 5:16-17

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] marinquiet 14 years ago

Do you not have a life that you spend all your time on these boards?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] marinquiet 14 years ago

To show that I am not a man of pride, I admit you were right. I had carefully sat down and thought about it and asked someone the difference. From another person's opinion lust and fantasizing are two complete different things, so I agree with you.

Lust
-noun
2.a. an overwhelming desire or craving

Lusting
-verb
1. to have an intense or obsessive desire, esp. one that is sexual.

Fantasize
-verb
1. to portray in the mind; imagine. to indulge in fantasies.

Fantasy
-verb
1. to imagine; visualize

When you're watching porn and fantasizing, you are visualizing a lustful act. God wants our minds to be pure not filled with filth so He can use us to do His will. Remember, your brain is not like a computer. Once you see something wrong its hard to erase it. God is against things that are not walking in love toward others. Now if you indulge in that desire and masturbate, it's a sin. "Haven't you yet learned that your body is the home of the Holy Spirit God gave you, and that he lives within you? Your own body does not belong to you. For God has brought you with a great price. So use every part of your body to give glory back to God, because He owns it." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) Also, most of the time in porn there's two people portrayed as an unmarried couple having sex. And as you know, in the word of God it says that when having sex and you are not married, it's also a sin. So with that said, what makes viewing porn not a sin?

My last question to you: are you with or against God?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] sirjoshthecoward 14 years ago

How frighteningly Draconian of you. Shall we also put the porno-fans to death like we do serial murderers? Or is it LESS of a "sin" in that case?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] mizsuz 14 years ago

To the OP,

Beautifully put. My wish for you is that you live in all the Grace your Heart can hold, and that you use the abilities given to you to continue to discern and use compassion.

That is the stuff that makes me hopeful for humanity. Thanks for your post, it was inspiring to someone who has long been incredibly discouraged by religion in general - but especially by the state of Christianity in the United States.

[–] fungusamongus85 14 years ago

i have to say, i agree with a few points such as the church needs to learn love and the right way about it, but to say that homosexuality is normal. thats wrong, and biblically contradictory. love the sinner. hate the sin. jesus taught love, true,but he also acted in anger, i.e. turning over the tables. the truth is that christianity has become nothing more than a business, the truth about Jesus remains. He is the way the truth and the life. theres only one way to get to heaven. through jesus christ. through the cross. his grace and forgiveness, and his redemption. 2 cor 5:17. check it out. we are not our own. we are bought and paid for by the shedding of his blood. jesus does love us and forgive us but also requires that we drop our nets and follow him. anyone who thinks that homosexuality is not a choice is severley confused and that stems from centuries of apathy from the men in the church. read a book called the four pillars of man by stu weber. a great book. maybe itll open your eyes a bit. we cannot choose our race, it is with us from before birth, just as our sexuality. the natural order is for man to love woman, and woman to love man. there are no other options. never ever throw out the old testament as outdated or irrelavent. it is paramount to understanding the new testament, and is still very applicable to our modern lives. everythinig that is spoken and happening in the new testament was alluded to in the old testament. i urge you to not lose your faith in God, even when it seems the church or "christians" are not operating the way they should. the church is not a building, or a business, its inside you. you are the church, and every member has a function. also read the abolition of man by cs lewis. and try to get your hands on a copy of sinners in the hands of an angry God.

are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] fungusamongus85 14 years ago

i'd like to read facts relating to homsexual related births. perhaps theres dna to back that up. i dont recall ever hearing or reading anything that said either. yet arguments regarding how natural it is ramble on. sin is sin. thats it. there is no way around. the difference between those who believe and those who dont, is true believers accept that fact, proclaim christ as savior, by the grace of god we are saved, and move forward with the understanding that while we were all sinners christ dies for us. redeeming us. his death gives us life. non believers do not understand therefore refuse to believe. forgiveness is so powerful and rare that when it is offered we dont know what to do with it, or have any clue how to extend it. theres more truth in that book than anything offered up by centuries of scientists.

are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] fungusamongus85 14 years ago

man was not created gay. homosexuality is not a choice. it is a sin. omniscience and omnipotence as you understand are limited. science provides answers to many of life's questions. not all. dont betray your small mind. you want to put a label on god. you think youve got it all figured out. pride is dangerous. we can argue all day about im right and youre wrong or youre right and im wrong topics, back and forth. what a waste of time. i believe one thing. you another. arguing with ignorance and "open-mindedness" have proven fruitless.i suggest you buy a bible. a strongs concordance. leave your bias at the door and see what you find.
are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] fungusamongus85 14 years ago

you see i'm talking about God, and you're talking about people.

are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] fungusamongus85 14 years ago

your god was created by man. i do not serve your god. the issue is simple. everyone is a sinner. i accept the forgiveness. i can only hope you do the same.

are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

tell me where your prof is that god was created by man thats the thing you have no prof what so ever that god is a made up being

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] Rabid_Si 14 years ago

"you have no prof what so ever that god is a made up being"

That could just be the most hilariously stupid thing I've ever read.
The fact that you probably think it's a clever and valid counter-point, however, makes me weep for the Human race.

[–] moomur 14 years ago

Ah religion. There are two things people shouldn't argue about and that is politics and religion.

Religion is a matter of faith and no one has the right to dictate what someone should believe in, whether you believe in it or not. I have no problems with people who want to believe in the bible, but you need to believe in it for yourself and worry about yourself following it, not dictacting what everyone else should be doing.

At the end of the day it is God that is suppose to do the judging, not us judging each other.

[–] kreemer 14 years ago

I'm a homosexual and I liked this film, and I love Jesus.

The contradictions are there but I learned to trust God a long time ago.

People can moralise about my life all they want.

I'm a homosexual.

And I'm a Christian.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] dandan-dandan 14 years ago

ThePlusDizzle:

If we claim to follow Jesus, then we place our trust in the Bible. Otherwise, it's just like this forum: people say whatever they think sensible. Everybody think they are right(human nature) and can come up with all kinds of support for their thoughts. The debate is endless, and we all go on with life thinking we are God since we live only according to our own standards. That's also why we are confused or hopeless because if indeed we were all right, then how come we get into pain and troubles, and still have to face death just as our counterparts do?

So to know the truth we can look in one place: God and His Word.

Instead of arguing over what is sin, and what is not sin, we should first understand whether it is our job or place to determine whether something is sin or not. Are our minds great enough to understand why things were created the way they were. Can we understand why women can give birth but not men? Do we even remember what happened three weeks ago at this hour? We don't. Because we are not God. I agree with your saying"we should not judge" others. But It is not because you are reasoning with logics, it is only because Jesus said "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.Matthew 7:1
He is the son of God, who loves us and died on the cross, and rose for us! His word is authority. I believe Him.

Since Jesus believed and obeyed the Old Testament, and both Testaments said that God''s Word will never pass way and shall remain forever, I believe OT is also God's word.

In the Bible, we are called little lost sheep. We have gone astray, and Jesus is looking for us.
Do you believe this? If you do, just as I do, then we admit we are not in a place to judge others, let alone judge God's law. Because we do not have enough maturity to understand God's work and His law.
Thus the Bible says:
Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."

I know this is hard to accept. Because our culture taught us Day 1 to think for ourselves and be independent and not rely on others. Also, we are told to be proud of our ability to think independently...etc. We naturally don't want to obey without reasoning in our minds what we are told. We worry we are cheated or controlled or become manipulated. So it IS hard to accept completely that automatically that everything in the Bible must be all true without doubt. However, the Bible is the Word of God and conveys as such: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe."1 Thessalonians 2:13
To only does the NT say we should believe the Bible, but tells us to willingly : " demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."2 Corinthians 10:5

So the argument here is not about whether something is wrong or right in substance, but WHO said it.
Who do we obey? The devil, our own ideas, the forum users or the Bible? We have a choice here, because God is not a tyrant. He wants us to willingly submit to Him, which is also Why He sent His son as a testimony that only His Word is authority and reason in its full nature.

So let's go back to the Bible, so is homosexual acts sin?
Old Testament:
Leviticus 18:22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
New Testament:
Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

When we were babies, we crawl around on the floor, and our daddies said"no" whenever we closed in on a socket or outlet. We simply obeyed. Was it because we fully understood the reason for it? If we were smart kids, we went way happily playing with other things. Because we respected and trusted both the love and the righteousness of our parents. In the same way, we should not doubt.

As for hating homosexuals, the Bible says to "love our enemies" as ourselves. And homosexuals are not our enemies, why should we hate them? We sin and fall too. But the Bible says:

"Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore
him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted." Galatians

So we should help others who have sinned as a fellow, but making sure our faith is strong enough.

My friend, I think humility will set you free from your current struggle. But I pray that you don't get rushed into the devil's trap and loose your precious salvation.

I know I sound preachy. But once I was very rebellious too and fell into medical depression. If it wasn't God's miracle that cured me, I would not be so submissive to God's word today. But He has indeed helped me seen how much my self-centeredness and pride had hurt me. I am so happy now to be God's little sheep. I feel so much lighter and I delight in obedience now!

To the other Christians here: Proverbs says: Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you. So let's ignore the work of the evil one, but use God's word wisely with those who are actually the flock of Christ.
Halleluja, peace with you all!
Amen! :)

[–] lannymeier 14 years ago

Hi
1st I’d like to point out that it seems to sound like your hating Christians the same as your proclaiming Christians to be hating gay people.

I would agree with you that some Christians hate gay people but I guess that wouldn’t make them Christians. Which brings me to my 2nd point.

Christian means Christ like so if your giving up on Christianity then your giving up on being like Christ. Yet you His love to prove your point.

I would agree that God is Love, Jesus is Love and He loves everyone. But He doesn’t love sin. Sin is breaking God’s laws. We have laws for a reason, laws of the land, speed limits, theft, murdering etc… There is also God’s laws that many of our government laws are based on. Why laws, because if we didn’t have them there would be chaos. There must be laws.

Jesus described marriage as a husband and a wife, man and woman He says in Mark 10:6-8 - "...at the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife..." and in both Matthew 6:31-32 and Mark 10:10-12 Jesus speaks of marriage and divorce being between a man and a woman, clearly using feminine and masculine terms. It is clear He never considers man with man or woman with woman.

Other passages in the N.T. also state that homosexuality is wrong. Romans 1:22-32, or 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Jesus loves everyone, but love doesn’t mean you ignore the wrong. Just because I love my children it doesn’t mean I ignore the wrong in their life. There is a punishment for not living right. There is a punishment for speeding there is a punishment for not living God’s laws.

We like to use love as a cover up to do wrong things, in the name of love. Love is a choice. I try to love everyone but just like I can’t accept someone murdering someone, I can’t accept a gay lifestyle(that's not hating a person, yes they get upset because nobody likes to be wrong, but its not likeing something someone does versus liking them. I don't always like everything my children do but I still love them). I’d still love them, talk with them, not shun them. But God’s word clearly says its not an acceptable lifestyle.

My suggestion to you is don’t focus on Christianity, or Christians, focus on your own relationship with Jesus, read His word and pray. Read Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23a(first part) then Romans 5:8; then back to romans 6:23b then Romans 10:13.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] sirjoshthecoward 14 years ago

My Dad's gay and he HATES anal sex. He just happens to hate vaginas MORE!