MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > They Bungled the Mad Queen Arc

They Bungled the Mad Queen Arc


This was season 5 Walter White showing up at the beginning of season 2.

Daenerys was always Messianic. It makes sense she's threatened by Snow, a brave, humble, natural leader of men who has a stronger claim to the throne and literally came back from the dead. This fuels some anxiety, but Messianic people do not suddenly have a full-blown crisis of confidence. So northerners love him more than they love her? They're northerners. She understands the insular culture and affection for a favorite son. She's managed to win over Western elites who were her enemies (Tyrion, Varys, Jorah). Cersei has the irrational confidence that's seen in dictators: her city is on fire, but she still feels her soldiers will turn it around.

This notion that Dany's curb-stomp was presaged is nonsense. People cite past dialog where she threatens to burn cities to the ground -- "that's her impulse" -- but then she never does and celebrates herself as a "breaker of chains." In the seventh season, there are at least two incidents where she says she's NOT going to reduce King's Landing to a pile of ash, yet these comments are also interpreted as "foreshadowing." So when she says she's going to burn a city (and doesn't) it shows her "real" state of mind. When she says she's not, it also somehow shows her state of mind. OK.

This idea that the violence was "always there" plays fast and loose. The same goes for the idea that people made excuses for her. The vast majority of characters in the series have blood on their hands, which is constantly rationalized. Varys, who in the latest episode says he doesn't know how the Targaryen girl's coin has landed, once tried to have her assassinated. He confesses to doing other fucked up things. Tyrion strangled a whore and murdered his defenseless father. He could've just left, but chose to kill (he also helped set thousands of young conscripts ablaze, and served the evil King Joffrey). Jorah Mormont took slaves, spied on Dany, and helped with the assassination attempt. Jaime pushed a kid out a tower. The Hound has slaughtered innocents. And so on.

One thing about GoT is that almost every character gets a chance for redemption, including people who have said and done evil things. Inasmuch as it's obvious Daenerys is going to break bad, everyone aligned with her is morally responsible for propping up a known monster.

But no, the signs for THIS massacre were not there. In terms of this universe, she was a relatively benevolent dictator. Her Messianic is constantly confirmed by fortune and magic. Her refusal to slaughter innocents fed her narcissism.

What has always been lurking in the background is that Targaryens often suffer from madness due to inbreeding. The Mad King was also relatively benevolent early life, but his descent into cruelty was comparatively slow. He had tongues cut out and committed atrocities before demanding "burn them all." Where was Dany's paranoia? Dictators believe in themselves, but they don't trust the people around them.

Tyrion told Varys of Jon's parentage before his Queen -- an admitted mistake. He's been awful at predicting what will happen. His brother tried to sneak past their supply lines. What was the consequence? "Your next mistake will be your last." Why not accuse him of putting his family ahead of his responsibilities as Hand and have him executed?

In some respects she resents and fears Jon Snow, but she's willing to put those feelings aside if he returns her affection. What the fuck? The story line easily could've gone the opposite way: He's still in love with her but she no longer cares for him because he's a threat to what she values more: unrivaled power.

With the bells ringing, the city had in effect bent the knee. Yet she flips her lid and goes off. It was just stupid and undercut any real moral ambiguity. Taking a city involves deaths of innocents. This was a war of choice, not necessity. Instead they gave her Hitler mustache and she just needlessly slaughtered people. She just went cartoonishly mad.

Hell, they could've had some townsboy throw a spear and stick her "child." She incinerates the kid, then gets a taste for it. He's a stand-in for the regular people who will always take shots at her because she's not properly feared.

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People mention her impulses because, well, they where there and it shows possibilities under circumstances. Before she had advisors that she did trust.
Tyrion gave her bad advice before (that made her question for whom he is actually working for) - so the bells for surrender could have been a trick.
Having Jons romantic affection could mean marriage which would eliminate the threat for her to be replaced by him, his rejection however, made that impossible.
Killing the innocent: I don’t think that in that moment she saw them as innocent. She had a goal and pushing back the moral „no crossing line“ is easy if you give yourself the reasons to do so.
Mad King and Tygarians: there are different kinds and levels of madness. Her mental decline I thought made sense under the circumstances.

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Since character development does not matter, and we can just cherry-pick for weak ad hoc justifications. Everyone should be totally fine with Tyrion celebrating the destruction of King's Landing. They should have been wondering why the hell he wanted to spare innocent lives in the first place. As he remarked as his trial:

"I saved you. I saved this city and all your worthless lives. I should have let Stannis kill you all... I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it."

He murdered Tywin, which empowered Cersei to do cruel and stupid things, then he went off and enabled the Dragon Queen, the same person who we all knew wanted to slaughter innocents because she made a remark about burning cities to the ground and we wisely ignored everything else she would say and do.

It will also be perfectly in keeping with Jon's character if he's turned on by all of the destruction since he has Mad King blood n' stuff.

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You nailed it on the head. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with her going full Mad Queen. But the show has spent seven and a half seasons building her up as someone determined to be a good and just leader. "I'm not my father," she tells Ser Barristan. And his response is, "No, Your Grace. Thank the gods." To flip it all in the space of one episode fails the character.

A lot of people say that this was all foreshadowed, and maybe they're more perceptive than I. But a lot of what people point to as foreshadowing, we can point to other characters doing similar things or worse:
-- Stannis, Cersei, and Theon all burn people alive -- innocent people, most of whom they knew, deliberately, and on multiple occasions.
-- Tywin sacks Kings Landing and orders the deaths of innocent children. He later turns around and watches, with clinical detachment, the death of his grandson and orders his son executed for it.
-- Jon runs one of his superiors through, then defends himself later as saying "he made me do it."
-- Bran repeatedly forces himself onto a mentally challenged innocent.
-- Meera encourages Bran, then deliberately abandons said mentally challenged innocent to be torn apart by zombies.
-- Ygritte and Tormund sack villages, then stand by and watch while their companions eat the people they killed.
-- Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell both poison children. Olenna even watches as he dies.

Are all of them mad too? You could make a case for some of them, but ALL of them?

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Agreed - they had 7 seasons to better develop Dany's madness - there should have been bigger signs of it way earlier on. Or even in season 8, there should have been stronger signs of her losing it - bouts of rage, madness, etc. There was no chance of that in the first 2 episodes, cause the writers used those for lame meet and greet sessions, which was dumb and uneven as hell, especially given what followed. Hell, even the Stark gals nearly starting a coup against Dany came out of nowhere - again, giving me a WTF moment. Essentially, there were way too many moments where characters acted not like themselves for no other reason than for the shock value.

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Her going "mad" was unsatisfactory on so many levels, biggest of all was that it was just plain predictable. Not because of some great narrative foreshadowing either, but because it was telegraphed in.

I don't mind the Mad Queen arc in principle. For dramatic purposes the slow descent of a beloved and pretty decent character (by GoT standarts) into madness and true evil would've been great to watch. But the writers didn't give themselves the time to develop that, and didn't give us a build up that would've been satisfactory (to me at least). There may or may not have been foreshadowing, but that doesn't change the fact that things just happen now, because boxes need to be ticked.

If she suddenly snapped that still isn't good enough for me at this stage, because there is no time to deal with the consequences of the snappage, by her, or the other characters. Dani as a villian would've also been fine. Earlier!

But to me Dani sacking King's Landing didn't even seem like proper madness, it just seemed like she was pissed off. She was angry at the world and took it out on all the people there. I guess that's another definition of a "Mad" Queen.

In any case, I guess she gets killed in the finale, because in true keeping with GoT style all bad people get their comeuppance immediately *thunderous eyeroll*.

This show needed not just a few more eps per season, it needed a few more seasons period.

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