TRUE FACTS FROM AN EX-MEMBER HERE! - September Dawn (2007) Discussion

[–] jenniferlynne254 17 years ago

Why the Mormon church is a cult:

1. They say that "Mormons" are the "chosen people" (only in a cult).

2. If your child is a Mormon and getting married, Mom and Dad can't attend unless they BECOME Mormons(very cult-like).

3. No tea, coffee, sugar, pop-tarts, Hershey bars, booze, cigarrettes...CULT.

4.10% of your earnings go to the church...right...way MORE than that...they will get ya somehow. CULT.

5. Mormons hate homosexuals, blacks, or anything that is not pasty pale like them.CULT.

6.When God returns, he will go straight to the Morman Temple. CULT.

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Why the Mormon church is a cult:

1. They say that "Mormons" are the "chosen people" (only in a cult).

Actually they believe that the Twelve Tribes of Israel are the "chosen people."

2. If your child is a Mormon and getting married, Mom and Dad can't attend unless they BECOME Mormons(very cult-like).

Only partially correct. Many Mormon weddings can be attended by anybody, only temple marriage ceremonies are restircted to temple recommend holders, which means that many Mormons cannot attend such a wedding. There are many meetings and venues restricting people at times by various organizations that are not cults.

3. No tea, coffee, sugar, pop-tarts, Hershey bars, booze, cigarrettes...CULT.

You are way out in left field on this one. The Jews and Muslims cannot eat pork, so they are part of a cult as well ? Are vegetarians part of a cult ? By the way, where did you get this outlandish idea that Mormons will not eat sugar, pop tarts, or Hershey bars ? They eat far too much of these items for thier own good. There are other Christian sects that do not allow booze. Are these cults as well ?

4.10% of your earnings go to the church...right...way MORE than that...they will get ya somehow. CULT.

Actually it is 10% of earnings that the LDS church feels should be donated. Many Christian churches believe in tithing. The Presbyterian congregation I joined held fast to the concept. I once had a Jewish girlfriend, and her temple suggests that the same amount should be contributed.

5. Mormons hate homosexuals, blacks, or anything that is not pasty pale like them.CULT.

Tell this to Gladys Knight and the many other black members or the LDS church. Tell this to the other millions of Mormons with brown skin. There are racist Mormons, but probably in no higher percentages than most Christian sects. The Mormon leadership is not exactly friendly to homosexuals, and I think their attitude should change. However, there are far more homophobic Christian sects than the Mormons.

6.When God returns, he will go straight to the Morman Temple. CULT.

This is speculation, that Christ will first appear in a Mormon temple when the "Second Coming" occurs. But the truth is that the Mormons are not sure what will happen.

You either have very little knowledge of the Mormons or this post is simply an attempt at a joke and you are a troll. Some of your ideas are so over-the-top wrong that the latter is a distinct possibility.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Lord_Cochrane 17 years ago

Mormons have heat vision...

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[–] Geology_Sage 17 years ago

Why do mormons have that idiotic no non-mormons at their wedding thing? In the past few months I've seen a family torn apart because a girls parents weren't allowed at their own daughters wedding because she had converted to mormonism to wed the guy...

Absolutley disgusting they way they acted and treated her parents. It's like they have the rule to force more people to join their church or something.

After watching my friend tear herself away from and destroy her own family in favor of mormonism I lost any respect I had for it...

briansouter- "the word 'credible' is meaningless...what do u mean by that word?"

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Why do mormons have that idiotic no non-mormons at their wedding thing? In the past few months I've seen a family torn apart because a girls parents weren't allowed at their own daughters wedding because she had converted to mormonism to wed the guy...

Absolutley disgusting they way they acted and treated her parents. It's like they have the rule to force more people to join their church or something.

After watching my friend tear herself away from and destroy her own family in favor of mormonism I lost any respect I had for it...

This has been covered over, and over again in other threads on multiple boards. It is an issue even in Mormon families. This is not done out of spite and is certainly not an attempt to force people to join. However, if this on its own was enough to destroy her family I would guess the situation was not explained very well.

Mormons only allow the very faithful of the numbers entrance to their temples. They go through an interview process and must produce a "recommend" to gain entrance. Mormons believe that marriages performed in their temples are for all eternity, but a regular marriage is just valid in mortality. So faithful Mormons strive to be married in temples, where only the most faithful can attend. In the case you cite it was likely that some of the couple's Mormon friends could not attend.

There is an easy solution to this that most American Mormons do not consider. The couple can have a non-temple marriage and then have it sealed later in a temple ceremony. I had friends in the UK who complained that they had to do it this way, since the British government does not recognize Mormon temple weddings as valid, since they cannot be properly witnessed. I said that they were given a blessing in disguise because all their family and friends could attend, as is proper in my opinion. It is like having your cake and eating it too. Now watch, some Mormons will come and post how it isn't the same, and that they were correct to be married in the temple right off even if somebody's parents were excluded.

Just three posts up in this very thread a Mormon stated how she had a ring ceremony outside of the actual wedding for those who could not attend in the temple. That might be good enough for some relatives and friends.

It is true they can't attend if their son/daughter is getting married in the temple and they don't have a recommend but they can do a ring ceremony. Basically it is exchanging wedding rings. I did that so my family could be involved. my mom doesn't have a recommend and the rest of my family is Baptist.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] jeffwcos 17 years ago

Maybe someone can correct me, but I believe that the U.S. is the only country that recognizes LDS Temple weddings (meaning that some type of civil procedure is not required prior).

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Maybe someone can correct me, but I believe that the U.S. is the only country that recognizes LDS Temple weddings (meaning that some type of civil procedure is not required prior).

My assumption has always been that there are some others, but I do not know for sure. In Thailand a simple registration of a marriage before or after a ceremony makes it valid, so I would guess a separate civil cemony would not be needed here.

In the past few months I've seen a family torn apart because a girls parents weren't allowed at their own daughters wedding because she had converted to mormonism to wed the guy...

I almost responded to another thing in my last post. Unless I have forgotten, or it has changed, the girl in question here would have had to have waited a year after her baptism to be able to have a temple recommend, take out her endowment, and then be able to have the temple marriage. If she converted just to marry the guy, did they wait an entire year before having a temple marriage ? In many situations such as this the couple would have had a civil marriage and then been sealed a year or more later. In teh UK a couple married in a civil ceremony could have it sealed in a temple rather soon afterward. However, I think in the US a couple would have to wait a year to do so. Why is this ? Is there any theological difference just because of nationality ? I fear it is a policy to "encourage" a couple not to have a civil ceremony, but just do the temple one. I believe the Mormons frown heavily upon having a followup civil ceremony.

I was engaged to a Jewish girl and we talked about the ceremony. She thought it would be good to have a Mormon bishop perform the wedding. I was uncomfortable with that, knowing that the bishop and others would think I was a failure in settling for such a marriage. Such was the strenght of my upbringing as a Mormon. I actually suggested that I would prefer a rabbi. That was probably out because I wasn't Jewish. I remember a Mormon bishop who would say in the ceremony that he was not only performing a marriage, but also a divorce at the same time since the marriage would end at death and the couple had best do something about this before one or the other died. This seemed harsh and not appropriate to me. This was in Scotland, so he performed a number of civil marriages that were later sealed in a temple.

I know a co-worker who wanted to marry his Thai girlfriend in the US about 30 years ago. They went to six or seven churches before they found a pastor who would marry them since she was a Buddhist. If I were a pastor, Mormon bishop, or a priest and a sincere couple sought me out to marry them I would comply.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] Geology_Sage 17 years ago

"If she converted just to marry the guy, did they wait an entire year before having a temple marriage ?"

Yup.

briansouter- "the word 'credible' is meaningless...what do u mean by that word?"

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[–] jeffwcos 17 years ago

I fear it is a policy to "encourage" a couple not to have a civil ceremony, but just do the temple one.

I think there is some truth to this statement and it really bothers me. There is no doctrinal basis for such an attitude (especially since, as we've discussed, it's not even an option in many countries). If one of my kids were to marry someone who had non-member parents, I would definitely encourage a civil ceremony first. That level of respect is owed to parents - to not do it seems to be in violation of the 5th commandment.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Interesting that we all seem to agree on this subject about some details such as the fact that the LDS church often takes an insensitive stand in terms of policy regarding civil marriages. My main reason for separating from the community of the Mormon church was in regards to marriage practices. I think it is ironic that a church that stresses marriage so strongly (TMC - "The Married Church") threw roadblocks in my way that prevented my being married. I was seeking the whole nine yards, temple marriage and all, yet the discrimination that was taught in regards to very active and faithful single men such as myself prevented this from happening. The end result was that they lost me, and there is probably one more single sister on their records as well. When I was growing up there was a Mormon book titled "Meeting the One"...it finally became apparent to me at one point that this had changed and that the individual did not really get valued all that much in the viewpoint of top LDS leadership. Conformity to rigid and narrow standards to create one type of Mormon member mattered more than any individuals. Fortunately Christ viewed things quite differently. Interestingly enough I found a message board this week where young Mormons were commenting on Mormon hymns they thought should be thrown out of the Mormon hymnal. The Mormons actually do have some excellent hymns with a much stronger hymnal than many Christian churches. Some wanted to remove "In Our Lovely Deseret" which I think I only heard once in a Mormon meeting...has it had a revival in my absence ? Others wanted to remove one that actually is one of my personal favorites, "Dear to the Heart of the Shepherd" ( not Mormon in origins)...perhaps they wanted to remove it because they feel the message in the song is antiquated and no longer applicable ?

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Guidelines for bishops and stake presidents:

Who May Attend a Temple Marriage

Only members who have valid recommends and have received their endowment may attend a temple marriage. Couples should invite only family members and close friends to be present for a temple marriage. …

Special Meeting for Guests, Who Do Not Have Temple Recommends

A couple may arrange with their bishop to hold a special meeting for relatives and friends who do not have temple recommends. This meeting provides an opportunity for those who cannot enter a temple to feel included in the marriage and to learn something of the eternal nature of the marriage covenant. The meeting may include a prayer and special music, followed by the remarks of a priesthood leader. No ceremony is performed, and no vows are exchanged.

No other marriage ceremony should be performed following a temple marriage.

(General Handbook of Instructions, Book 1 Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics, p. 70. Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1998 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.)

http://www.irr.org/mit/temple-marriage-perspective.html

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Yes, I have known people who were told that they would have to wait a year after having a civil ceremony. I think this is common practice.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

Geode. Do you think this is an honest practice by the bishops if they know that a person doesn't have to wait a year after a civil wedding to have a temple sealing? Do the bishops have an agenda by stating this?

No, I do not think the bishop you mention was correct. I just ran into an ex-bishop (now in a stake presidency) and ran the details past him. He thought it was a wrong approach as well. He also agreed that this was likely to be an agenda to influence a couple without justification.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

My postion is that especially with the current trends, marriages should be encouraged where families are as integrated as possible. Therefore little or nothing good comes from alienating family members on either side. It is obvious that there is nothing doctrinal about having a civil marriage that can be followed almost immediately by a temple sealing. Jeff said this as well. This is the routine in Europe. I think it should be an option in the US.

I think it is easier for single women to remain active in the LDS church than single men since they are not made to feel so guilty. When I reached my mid-30's I found that there were very few active men left who had never married. Then I disappeared as well. If I was to start attending my ward again I am pretty sure that many members would assume that I am gay. Almost all would look upon me as somebody who had failed miseably. The problem is that part of the legacy of my being LDS for so long is that my own mind tells me how badly I have failed. Even after all these years I get up very Sunday morning and feel this feeling of guilt for not going to church. Depression is said to be higher for LDS women that the general population. Trust me, these women do not have a corner on depression. I am sorry that it all did not work out for your husband's aunt. I hope she is reasonably happy.

In a survey my mother filled out many years ago at church she put down that single Mormon men would be more active if they were not made to feel so guilty in meetings. It was her opinion that I could do more good within the church by trying to effect change than anyone could do outside. She was wrong. Dissent or differences of opinion have not been tolerated for many years now. This trend started nearly fourty years ago, probably with "The Correlation Commitee."

I grew up in an era where The Relief Society operated rather independently. They had their own magazine, and raised thier own funds in bazaars, I really liked going to these for there were all kinds of great things on sale to eat, and quilts and other handicrafts on sale of great variety. The demise of these was a sore point with my mother, a proto-feminist, that the Relief Society had to stop doing these sales and ask the bishop for all funding. She saw it as men grabbing more and more control in the church. I think she was probably correct.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] geode 17 years ago

She is very happy. She is a nurse and loves her job, she worked in the NICU for along time. She is planning on going to Africa to do some vulenter work for a couple of weeks. I guess that is one plus for her not getting married and not having kids she is able to do alot of traveling without worring about them.

Then she no longer resents my dropping out of activity ? My worst experience in Mormon courtship was with a nurse.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] starvingactress92009 17 years ago

I know there are other places that recognize temple ceremonies. One of the reasons it is recognized here is because years ago the us government was taken through the temples and shown the processes. The government approved of them and allowed the marriages as well as other ceremonies.

I have alot of friends who married civilly first and then temple. Also been to alot of ring ceremonies to be able to include everyone. And whatever bishop said that he was performing a divorce at the same time...punch him in the nose for me! That is the close mindedness we all have to fight! lol Everyone will be taken care of. Love is one of the most important aspects of this life. God knows that...i think he will take if everyone in the end.

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[–] LuigiBeatsMario 17 years ago

"Why do mormons have that idiotic no non-mormons at their wedding thing? In the past few months I've seen a family torn apart because a girls parents weren't allowed at their own daughters wedding because she had converted to mormonism to wed the guy...

Absolutley disgusting they way they acted and treated her parents. It's like they have the rule to force more people to join their church or something.

After watching my friend tear herself away from and destroy her own family in favor of mormonism I lost any respect I had for it..."

wow. every word you just said was false. my brother is mormon and he married a catholic. the church didnt have any problem with that....

*beep*

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[–] altrgod 17 years ago

see the deal is in life people will choose what ever crazy ass religous belief they want. I am fine with that as long as they don't come to my door trying to convert, don't advocate violence, don't discriminate, not be greedy, and generaly hold decent human morals. What miffs me the most is some of the beliefs they go from normal to tripping on acid in the turn of a page. I guess I just have a different preception of reality than the religious.

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[–] rdaman 17 years ago

I'm glad that this was your experience and I've had many good experiences with mormons, including some very nice bishops that I've met (one was my High School counselor). However, I think the problem comes with the bad experiences that I've had as well, especially concerning people that I've known that have left the church but their family all lives in Utah. Those families that I've known were completely cut off from the rest of the family because they were no longer mormons, not allowed to visit, not even able to get a job in the community that they used to live. It was very devastating to the families that I've known that have gone through this.

That along with some of the more unusual beliefs of the church (populating planets in the afterlife, wearing special undergarments, trying to move dead members of your family tree up the spiritual ladder so to speak, etc.) is what makes some people view this religion as a cult.

I've known many mormons, especially those that have not lived in Utah that have claimed that they don't believe in many of the more unusual teachings of the church and say that they are just like any other Christian, they believe that they are saved by Christ through his death and resurrection. I have no issue with them at all.

I do think that the church in Utah is to blame for some of the things that have happened to people who have been seperated from their families because of a change in belief. I do believe that they have even encouraged divorces (I've known several people who lived in Utah who have told me that this happened to them) because one of the people in the marriage would not convert.

On the other hand, I do think that mormons in general do a lot of good things for the country and for communities. So I'm not slamming all mormons, I just have a few issues with the leadership (both currently and historically) and some of the people that blindly follow them in Utah.

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[–] dunham99 17 years ago

I grew up in Coleville, Utah which is near Mountain Meadow. We knew it as the Mountain Meadow massacre. Now I'm not saying that we should never talk about it, we should. Its like saying that the holocaust never happened.

The Mormon Wars are a part of Utah's past, that we can learn from.

But, did we really need the Romeo and Juliet junk added to it?

You do have to admit that Terence Stamp does look like skinnier Brigham Young.

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[–] JohnDeming3 17 years ago

Thank you, sir. Being a Mormon is hard sometimes, and it's nice to know that somebody has some sense. And, I agree, the best outside representation of Mormonism is the South Park episode.

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[–] JohnDeming3 17 years ago

Thank you, sir. Being a Mormon is hard sometimes, and it's nice to know that somebody has some sense. And, I agree, the best outside representation of Mormonism is the South Park episode. Although, there never has been a really accurate representation. Mormonism is pretty much the same thing as any other branch of Christianity. Sure, there are differences, sure some things are more strict, but that doesn't justify any of the horrible things people say about Mormons. I don't hate Catholics because of the Crusades; neither do I hate Muslums for 9/11. I just find it interesting how people are so excited to watch a movie that demonizes Mormons, as I've heard that this does, yet nobody really does their homework. I respect your faith, even if I disagree with it, so why won't you show me the same courtesy.

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