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Why does Ryan's nan need to be quoted regarding her support for other figures in order for you to not assume that she was solely concerned with Rosa Parks? What if none of the rest of the series visits an historical earth figure? What if it does and it's say, Archimedes? Is Grace's approval of Archimedes required in order for her familiarity with Rosa Parks to remain valid?

Don't get it.

Since Rosa Parks was the subject of this story, Grace's affinity with the subject was germane to the story being told in episode 3. How that should constitute a "query" that needs to be addressed is a bit weird.

As it happens, the reason the guy in this episode chose to disrupt this moment in history was precisely because Rosa Park's story DID inspire many people, particularly historically oppressed people. You might as well be typing I hope the show acknowledges the importance of other historical figures besides Rosa Parks because it would raise some sort of query.

As it happens, I know plenty of people who are experts on one topic or person and there's nothing weird or even remotely suspicious about it.

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It's explained to you why the Tardis has brought them to Montgomery. Because a significant moment in the history of the people of the universe is being disrupted. The moment is one of significant resonance with people who have historically been oppressed. It's no coincidence that Grace, as we are told by Graham, was well read on Rosa Parks. It's a statistical high probability for a woman of Grace's age and background.

The show wasn't about Claudette Colvin. The Tardis didn't take them to an incident involving Claudette Colvin. They weren't trying to trace the steps of Claudette Colvin in order to preserve a moment in Claudette's and the universe's history. Except in a very broad topical sense, Grace's affinity for Claudette Colvin would have sounded out of place in a story about shadowing Rosa Parks's movements.

"But Black Londoner woman knows about Black America circa 1950's is too convenient if left unchallenged.

And you know this."


What are you talking about? What do I know? Who should or shouldn't know about Black America in the fifties then? Are you a "black londoner woman"? How do you know what Grace should or shouldn't know about?

You really need to explain why that should be seen as an unlikely coincidence because it struck me as quite probable and generated profound sympathy for Graham's regret that Grace could not be there in person to give them the benefit of her knowledge. If it was such an unlikely coincidence then it wouldn't have been quite so effective.

"Can you imagine what the hubbub would be if Yaz's grandmother's memories was a key component to a story about Pakistan in the past within Jodie's first series?"

But we're not talking about Grace's memories. We're talking about her being conscious of history, and Grahams memories and emotions regarding her passion for history. Including, not unsurprisingly, the history of the person who's story the Tardis has brought them there safeguard.

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Grace is dead.

The memories of who and why she was important to Graham and Ryan will come from them as and when they are germane to the stories and those particular characters relationships to them.

It's not important in itself. Just the presumed "coincidental" nature of Grace's awareness and the implied debit the show now owes you now that it has been applied to Rosa Parks, the subject of episode 3.

Grace's awareness of Rosa Parks is not a leapfrog onto socially progressive points. Grace's personality and qualities, her outlook on life were discussed in the previous episodes. If you ignore them then maybe you could choose to be suspicious about the invocation of her knowledge of black history (and how it then became Graham's knowledge too) in this episode.

I'm concerned with how you presume to know what a black londoner woman would or wouldn't know. And why your specific comments regarding the show are confined to pre-empting some sort of racial bias by omission on the forthcoming shows.

What's NPC?

You're right about Rosa Parks being loaded if it prompts people to construe a black woman from 21st century england being au fait with the topic as something suspicious unless it's balanced with knowledge of other historical figures besides. Does that imply that if Grace had been white, there would be nothing inherently untoward and no requirement to expand Grace's knowledge beyond the black figure that's the subject of the story.

Remembering Grace while the companions help the Doctor tackle the problem enhances the show in a completely valid and credible way. It's one of the "real treats" of the story. It shouldn't be apologized for in any way.

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Why shouldn't I be concerned with an issue you've chosen to raise in a public internet forum? If it's no concern of anyone else's, don't post it in a place where a facility to reply with comments is provided.

There's no logic to what you're saying. You seem to be anxious about something that doesn't exist possibly being confirmed to have existed, retrospectively, in the even of a lack of balance in the future.

At least if Grace was white person with that knowledge you wouldn't have the excuse to insinuate her character as being just a skin colour.

It makes as much sense as fretting about Graham's character providing insight into bus driver culture in this episode, unless at some stage he is also able to give his input regarding the plight of the private motor car driver. That way he's not pigeonholed as merely a cipher for promoting communal public transport etc.

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"Don't rob the character of their value solely on the issue of their gender and skin tone."

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There is a lot of things named after Rosa Parks in the UK, used to live round the corner from a nursery named after her. So I don't think that Ryan's nan knowing would be such a big deal.

In fact Grace knowing the story was meant to be something bigger considering the way things played out because I think in a way there was meant to be a subtly to it that very few people have discussed in the forums I've seen and that all to do with Graham's face when he was standing on that bus and the Doctor said sorry to him.

Graham only knew the details of the story because of Grace, a woman who brought him back to life and died for what she stood for. But to protect history he had to be forced into the role of the white man who 'needed' a seat. In a way he was forced against his will to sort of be silently complicity (like a lot of people become in their own way about a lot of things because well...life). He didn't mean to be but he was. Just like he and the Doctor were earlier with going to the motel and hiding Ryan and Yas rather than telling the motel owner to belt up or play dumb about segregation like other Doctors would have.

I get why they did that bit because unlike with the times racism with Martha and Billie you never got that any companion was in real danger from the horrible person spouting the BS. But from the get go here, you got Ryan and Yas would be in real danger if society decided to go for them. So what would a rl grand dad do in that situation - exactly what Graham did, protect his grandkids even if it meant telling them to hide in the bathroom and spout bull to give them time to get away if needed. Not confront and risk having Ryan be found and hurt.

But that and the standing and the look on his face on that bus it was like he got he looked like he wasn't fighting the things Grace hated because if he didn't history and the story that Grace told him never would have happened . That it looked like he sort of betrayed her. Well it just broke my heart.

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Well put.

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I just think that the look on Graham's face is so being overlooked, in the whole mix of people going on about them going on about heavy handed social issues. Grace knowing so much about Rosa (something that I can see being the case as she was a smart woman) ties so much into him as much as spurring Ryan on.

Because that look on his face on that bus, like he was a horrible person, that he doesn't want to be there or part of it and like he failed Grace and for Ryan to see that too, not that Ryan at that point seems to acknowledge that. But his face and with the Doctor saying sorry to him. That he got to meet Grace's hero and failed to 'help' her, that he failed to be the man that Grace would expect because from what we saw she'd be right in there causing a fuss and telling the driver he is out of order - well that destroys me.

Especially when you look at how he just wants Ryan to call him Granddad and that he is prepared to look out for the kid, who is too impulsive for his own good and it is Graham that notices that atmosphere in the cafe not the others. He wants to do the right thing but he wants to keep people safe too even if it is going along with a lie because it is Graham that tells Ryan he won't get killed to reassure the kid, but Ryan could have been killed if he met the wrong person. And it is Graham spouting the BS about Steve Jobs to give Ryan and Yaz time. He loves the kid, he wants to hold onto the last bit of Grace he has.

But all of that is subtle and it is a testament to how good an actor Bradley Walsh is.

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Yep. The easiest thing they could have done was to have The Doctor and Graham going around prearranging civil rights to everybody. Or stood up for Rosa on the bus and showed solidarity. Rewriting history, in essence.

Instead, Graham even though he's sympathetic, is required to be in that story rather than just be a distant observer of it. It's the history that matters.

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Oh I agree. Having some sort of saviour arc would have ruined it. Having Martin Luther King in there for as little as they did was just about right as it was about getting Rosa on that bus at that time. Not her being saved from the consequences of it.

The only criticism I have is I don't remember that Claudette Colvin being mentioned in that Rosa's home, because Rosa's sitting on the bus was planned as Claudette's wasn't, but she wasn't a good PR fit. Having Luther King in Rosa's sitting room does show that Rosa's protest was planned but in the end we get Rosa didn't need to go along and it didn't need to be that day or that bus which means another bus driver could have just let it go.

It also would have been so easy for them to have Graham say to every white person that Ryan was his grandson and dare them to respond. Or to have the Doctor and him have Ryan and Yaz in that motel room out in the open. In fact I can see almost every other Doctor doing that, Tennant would have mocked and pulled out the psychic paper, Smith would have played dumb about the law and Capaldi would have looked down his nose till the policeman walked out in shame, Eccleston possibly would have punched the policeman out. But they never raised the stakes like the did in the opening minutes before with Ryan being slapped in the face and Emmett Til being mentioned so I get why this Doctor didn't tell anyone from that time they were truly out of line. It wasn't her life effected if it went wrong - it would have been two kids she has a duty of care for.

But forcing Graham to stand there, him being the other adult in the room, that is harsh.

Especially considering they told us his wife was such a Rosa Parks fan. I think that was the point of it, not so much as showing why the guys knew so much but how hard would it have to be to basically be the physical representation of everything the person you just lost was willing to stand against. But I don't think that people here get that.

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By the same token Rosa had to be allowed to become involved in the confrontation in order that a statement would be made and possibly encourage others to stand up against the injustice of the segregation system. Graham or anyone else interfering would have just been counterproductive and may have drawn out the civil rights struggle and delayed certain achievements if she had been defended in the situation. Graham could have been any white person on the bus that evening - someone who supported segregation, someone opposed to it, someone scared of "rocking the boat", someone not particularly invested in politics, someone for whom it was just another day making their way home from work or other routine, etc. You could have an argument with someone of the time about the "merits" of the divided bus but being a person from the future you would probably not be entitled to interfere - it's not your world so to speak. Becoming a passenger on the bus is really just a role you might yourself be in as someone in the background and it fulfills history as it played out. Graham wasn't letting anyone down but it was a dismal emotional experience for him (which demonstrates his commitment to anti-racism I guess).

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Oh yeah Rosa had to be the one to be involved in the confrontation - she had to be the one who decided ultimately to stand or sit. Anything else would have made what she did lesser, because even with the truth of Claudette Colvin being factored in Rosa Parks took a huge hit for sitting on that bus.

But she also did it because she couldn't be dismissed as easily in the press like Claudette Colvin could have been as she was a teenager who got pregnant a few months after she got arrested. So even a name drop would have worked but the Doctor and her team could not have been involved in cajoling Rosa into what she did.

And yeah Graham could have been any white person on that bus, but he wasn't. He wasn't just someone who isn't racist he was someone who loved and lost a black woman and was trying to look out for a young black man who is anger about a lot of things.

And yeah you could have the Doctor tell someone off over segregation and I don't doubt Capaldi's Doctor would have speechified the hell out of it, because when has Doctor Who not been about someone coming in and judging things that are not of 'our' world. But that slap at the beginning over something as innocuous over the handing over of a glove? That showed the stakes visually. Ryan being shouted at for telling a couple the bus is coming. The police man in the motel room, he wasn't chewing the Doctor and Graham out for possibly having Ryan and Yas in that room, he was after Ryan and Yas. The Doctor and Graham rock that boat and it is Ryan and Yas paying for it.

As for Graham not letting people down - in the scheme of history no, but in terms of the woman he just lost he did. She would have fought, she would have been the one to make the speech or sat down by Rosa. She would have had words with the guy standing to see if he needed the seat and he turned out to be that guy. That hurts.

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"Colvin said, "Young people think Rosa Parks just sat down on a bus and ended segregation, but that wasn't the case at all.""

"[Bus Incident -] This event took place nine months before the NAACP secretary Rosa Parks was famously arrested for the same offense.[3] Claudette Colvin: "My mother told me to be quiet about what I did. She told me to let Rosa be the one: white people aren't going to bother Rosa, they like her".[4]"

Claudette Colvin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin

It would have been a more nuanced episode if someone had mentioned Colvin's bus experience too.

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Colvin's quote is used almost verbatim in the episode. And she wasn't referring to Rosa Park's being given undue prominence. She was lamenting the impression that it was THE watershed.

The point, expressed in the show, was that all these little moments added up to something. Disrupting one could undo history.

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That is the scary thing and I suppose that is why they introduced fixed points and had here showing the bad side as much as the Doctor saving the Roman family from Pompeii is good. The waters of Mars tried to show it, the Time Monk tried to show it I think but it failed to be as powerful as this because we weren't invested in the stakes, but here we are.

But that little nudge one way or the other can change so much and lead to pain for others. It is a question how many fixed points have been altered in Who because of a nudge, intended or not. Krasko's plan simply involved getting a bus driver a day off, no biggy and if that was it then how many other things change because of an introduced variable.

Ashlida was never meant to be drowned as a witch, but she was because she lived when she should have died. How many died on Agicourt because of the longbow man who was her. How many survived the plague because they listened to her thing about washing when they should have died or the opposite because they saw what happened to her when she said to wash so died instead of taking the advice of a 'witch'. Those little changes, how many ripples???

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I agree with Matoto, from my understanding she was complaining the way Rosa Park's act was the start of it all.

But agree even just a name drop would have made things a bit more nuanced.

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If Keith proved anythng it's that the viewer of Sunday's episode can look up Rosa Parks later on wikipedia and find out about Claudette Colvin and others.

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True I suppose.

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It was presented well, I agree. The political struggle, conservative bitterness, the willingness to not give up or give in that characterised the US black civil rights movement were there in the story. I was not so keen on the idea that the departed "Nan" was a big fan of Rosa - we all have beliefs and political views, but because she was an extrovert and outspoken she gets a platform. On the other hand, while he gets to talk, the racial supremacist/class elitist/fascist, etc. bad guy in the episode is relatively censored - we don't get to understand the reasoning behind his hatred or even the specific details of what his views are, he's just a token creep to be defeated. There is always more going on behind the scenes to create social conflicts and social division. Drama presentations I guess are committed to creating simplified character conflicts so that we can identify a "hero" and a "villain" and to have an agenda to push to an audience (- I didn't know until recently that the scifi writer Robert A. Heinlein was keen to portray his conservative politics through his novels.).

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He's not just a token creep. He's a product of the times and the situation he's in. Somebody upsetting the otherwise unchallenged status quo is enough for otherwise reasonable people to be total jerks while everyone is merely culpable through tacit acceptance.

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I clicked on this thread expecting a conversation about E03
Instead we have endless bickering about how much a fictional character from London would know about Rosa Parks.

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