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In the opening robbery, killing the third guard made no sense.

posted 4 years ago by MikeHunt12345 (786)
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In the opening robbery, killing the third guard made no sense. Even if they didn't kill anyone, they'd still already committed a serious crime, that would result in lengthy prison time if caught. It makes no sense that they have no problem leaving witnesses when they're guilty of armed robbery, but don't want to when they're guilty of murder. If they didn't kill the third guard, their chances of getting caught would've been the same as if they didn't kill anyone.

[–] Orcsquisher (11) 4 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MikeHunt12345 (786) 4 years ago

But in California, the maximum sentence for armed robbery is nine years. It makes no sense how they have no problem risking that.

[–] Ace_Spade (9364) 4 years ago

California has the death penalty, notably for first-degree murders committed for financial gain, where the defendant already has a murder 1 or 2 conviction, and/or where the murder was committed during a robbery. I'm thinking some of these guys qualify. Even if they didn't get the death penalty, I'm guessing that "murder 1" is a longer sentence than nine years, and they probably have to wait longer for and have a lower chance of getting parole.

The risks get exponentially worse in almost every way once Waingrow capped the guy. As Det. Hanna points out, they were just reducing the number of witnesses at that point.

The lawyers this crew could afford would likely get that nine years down a fairly decent way. But the murder thing? A lot harder to reduce to a "manageable" number.

[–] Roguemail (1565) 4 years ago

Did you actually watch the movie?

The killing of the first guard was not planned, this was Waingro deciding to shoot the guy by himself. It was not sanctioned by De Niro or anyone else in the crew. However, once that guard was dead, these guys knew that they had to make the decision to shoot the other guard because as Pacino's cop says at the scene later "Why leave a living witness?".

That said, in the diner scene later when they all meet and De Niro cracks Waingro's head against the window, its clear he is pissed off because it will still bring more heat down on them because they have now murdered cops. That's why they attempt to off Waingro, because he was a reckless liability to the crew, and if caught could implicate all of them if he decided to co operate with the cops for a lesser sentence.

[–] Ace_Spade (9364) 4 years ago

Could and would. Waingrow would have sold out everybody in a *heartbeat*.

I always felt like Neil was partly so angry because he was mad at himself for letting that schmuck on the team. I imagine him sitting in that diner fuming, just going over and over in his head the vetting process for Waingrow. Maybe he skimmed over something or trusted a vouch he wouldn't normally trust or something, but I'd guess he was livid with Waingrow, but a little PO'd at himself, too.

[–] Roguemail (1565) 4 years ago

I agree to a certain extent, I guess Neil felt like he had let his professional standards dip a little.

However, we never saw how Waingro was recruited. We only saw him hook up with Tom Sizemores character in the truck. And we never see how and why he was recruited. Maybe Sizemore was the one who chose him. Neil may have left it to him.

As a result you could be right, that Neil may have been pissed off that he allowed someone else in his team to recruit Waingro, rather than check him out himself.

[–] Ace_Spade (9364) 4 years ago

I'm making assumptions for sure. My guess is that they had a guy who used to roll with them. He retired, got caught, got killed - whatever. This might have happened pretty recently. They'd already done some initial planning for their op and this guy went, "You know what? I don't think I've got it in me anymore. I've made my buck, I'm getting old, I'm out," and left them in need of another goon.

You nailed it: I'm guessing "Slick" found Waingro. That said, he also doesn't recognise him at first. So...maybe a friend of a friend?

But, whether this guy was known to Sizemore secondhand, or Kilmer, or even was found by Neil himself, Neil would still give himself a bit of a mental kicking for lapsing - even slightly. "Sizemore said he was cool, but why didn't I vet him myself!?" That kind of thing.

A lot of this, by the way, I'm reading into De Niro's expressions in the diner. I don't know what De Niro was doing, but it worked like gangbusters.