MovieChat Forums > The Forsyte Saga (1969) Discussion > What would've happened if....?

What would've happened if....?


What do you think would've happened had Soames & Irene been honest with Jon & Fleur from the get-go? IMO, part of Fleur's attraction to Jon was that it was a forbidden love; if Soames had told her the truth, it might've taken away the "romanticism," which Fleur was always obsessed with, away. And if Irene had told Jon, who was very loyal to his mother, he might never have encouraged the affair. Of course, in reality, I know that Galsworthy would not have a story to write ;-)

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I'm not sure if Galsworthy would not have had a story to write if the plot had gone the way you described! It would have take new twists I suppose.

I do recall that Irene was fearful of Jon being told the truth because she worried that he would think poorly of his mother for marrying someone she did not love. Children (even adult ones) can be very harsh on their own parents if they discover how human they are! Young Jolyon even commented on that (not sure if it was in the book or in the original adaptation). As a matter of fact, I think the delay in telling Jon was due to Irene's reluctance. Dredging up old unpleasant memories...

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Remember Soames didn't want Fleur to know, either. Prosper told Fleur about Soames & Irene being married. I never did figure out why Prosper told Fleur. What did he have to gain by it? Was it explained in the novels?

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Prosper sensed Fleur's dislike for him and I think he did it purely out of malice. He knew it would disturb her. And it did.

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Oh, I couldn't stand him; I think Soames said it best about him, "A seedy chap." I always laugh when I hear him speak, that dreadful accent, LOL! Do the novels reveal who wrote the letter exposing Prosper's and Annette's affair to Soames?

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No they don't. My impression of who it was is that it's just some anonymous busybody.

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No, Prosper thought Fleur already knew. Fleur had been trying to find out the truth, but no one would tell her. When Prosper repeated the gossip, Fleur coolly pretended to know it so she could get the truth.

From the book, To Let:
Prosper: "I was hearin' at the Club today about his old trouble."
Fleur: "What do you mean?"
Prosper: "Before you were born; that small business."
Fleur: "Tell me what you heard."
Prosper: "Why! You know all that."
Fleur: "I expect I do. But I should like to know that you haven't heard it all wrong."
Prosper: "His first wife."
Fleur: "Well, what about her?"
Prosper: "Mr. George Forsyde was tellin' me about your father's first wife marryin' his cousin Jolyon afterward. It was a small bit unpleasant, I should think. I saw their boy--nice boy!"

I couldn't stand Prosper, either. He did know Fleur disliked him, and he repeated the gossip out of malice. But, he didn't know he was revealing a secret.

Ironically, Prosper actually did the right thing. Fleur and Jon should have been told immediately and been allowed to decide for themselves.

What a hypocrite Jon's father Jolyon was! In the past, he had followed his heart and hurt his family. But he wouldn't allow his Jon to do the same.

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I always thought it was unfair for Jo to ask Jon, "Who do you love more? Your mother or Fleur?" Why could Jon not love both equally, just in different aspects? I, too, thought that both Jo & Irene were hypocrites. It was ok for them to break the rules but not their "Jon."

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Yes, it was unfair, but Jo is selfish in that he puts Irene at the center of his world, and everyone else (even their loved son) cannot compete. Jo would throw anyone under the bus to save Irene. I don't think that's exactly hypocritical, since I don't think Jo realizes exactly what he's doing. Also, I think both Jo and Irene recognize that Fleur is Soames's daughter and has inherited his possessiveness; Fleur is pretty and charming but ruthless; she latches on to Jon and she may love him but she wants to own him. I think Jon's parents see the flaws of her character and know she would be a terrible wife for Jon. It's a whole messy mix of motives, yes? (Galsworthy created some very complicated and human characters!) And of course Jon's parents are right in their opposition to the match because they fear that Jon will end up unhappy, and Jo is right in that Irene would have been devastated if Jon had married Fleur ...

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I completely agree that Jo put Irene in the center of his life. That's what husbands are supposed to do.

I don't think he was a hypocrite. He was married to Frances before really knowing her and after knowing her realized that they were wrong for each other. He fell in love with Helene, but her neediness probably became difficult for him. He was never unfaithful to her, though, despite that she was tempted to think so.

The one thing I criticize him for is the emotional abandonment of June, which was the tragic end result of the all-or-nothing nature of Victorian morality. June then fell for Phillip, who didn't commit to her emotionally either and she ended up a spinster.

As to Jon and Fleur, I think we all agree that they would have been a bad match. Had they been more compatible it would have still been difficult because of what had happened in the past. Fleur's possessive nature is probably the natural result of her parents' marriage, one that had little emotion and that ended in separation.

Soames' parents were 18 years apart, too. History was repeating itself.



The Fabio Principle: Puffy shirts look best on men who look even better without them.

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I was glad to see this mentioned at last! Hardly anyone ever criticizes Jolyon.

Ironically, Prosper actually did the right thing. Fleur and Jon should have been told immediately and been allowed to decide for themselves.

What a hypocrite Jon's father Jolyon was! In the past, he had followed his heart and hurt his family. But he wouldn't allow his Jon to do the same.


He was quite the hypocrite, and selfish too! He married without love, like Irene (his first wife, Frances). Then he cheats on her with the governess and ruins her reputation, along with deserting his daughter June and hurting his father.

Then he starts pursuing Irene (as her trustee only) while he is still married to Helene. SHE dies conveniently and he and Irene blatantly broadcast their affair to get rid of Soames.

THEY get to enjoy 20 years of married bliss (with Jolyon again almost ignoring Jon to adore his wife and paint watercolours!), yet when it's Jon's turn, to at least try, he's suddenly outraged on Irene's behalf and after years of not telling Jon, decides to ruin his first love by writing that awful letter, knowing Jon will choose his doting, hovering mother over Fleur. What a jerk!

I always disliked and at times hated Soames, but during this time, at least he tried to make things right for Fleur's sake and swear that he'd want nothing to do with them or Irene. Irene, ever the selfish one when it came to Jon, let's her own feelings trump everything else. She and Jolyon are no longer Soames' victims, but now just as bad, just as possessive and controlling as HE ever was!


Nothing is what it seems. Everything is a test. Rule #1: Don't...get...caught.

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Yes, Jon and Fleur should have been allowed to know right away.
They were almost adults and needed to know the whole story by that point.

And yes, Jolyon was indeed a hypocrite.
There's no way that he liked it when his father asked him to give his up on his love just to please his family.
And yet, he felt no shame about doing the same thing to his own son years later.
To be fair though, I don't believe that Frances's reputation was ruined.
People would have seen her as the innocent wronged party and Jolyon as the immoral adulteror.
But the 1967 version shows us that Frances was cold and haughty and really vindictive towards Helene.
The 2002 version is a bit kinder to her, but makes it clear that hers and Jolyon's marriage was dead emotionally.
Also, let's remember that Jolyon let Frances have the whole alimony and the whole custody of June.
Neither did he start to pursue Irene before Helene was dead.

Irene would at least be more sensible than this in the 2000s version.
Because she understood that they would be hypocrites, if they would guilt their son into dumping Fleur.
And unlike Jon's father and sisters, she was clearly prepared to give Fleur a chance.
So yeah, she'll always be my favorite!

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Had Jon and Fleur known the truth earlier, the storyline would have proceeded quite differently. Jon might well have ended the relationship, then and there. But then again... maybe not. Remember, Jon only renounced Fleur AFTER Jolyon's death, which left Irene a heart-broken widow. If the revelation had come earlier, with Jolyon still alive, Irene might not have appeared so pathetic a figure to her son. Jon, a true romantic, might have refused to be hampered or restricted by the sordid family history. He might have broken free of it altogether. In which event he probably would have eloped with Fleur to Scotland, as she wanted him to do.

But once they'd married, what then? Fleur wanted Jon mostly because she couldn't have him. Once she had him, all the allure of a "forbidden love" would have been gone. And Jon's infatuation for this spoiled and wilful girl would have died, too, in the face of stark reality. Besides, they had nothing whatsoever in common. Fleur wanted to be the center of attention at every social gathering, whereas Jon wanted the quiet life of a farmer. Can you see Jon---shy, inarticulate Jon---enjoying one of Fleur's hectic parties? Or can you picture Fleur as a farmer's wife, hoeing turnips? No way! They were hopelessly mismatched.

In the final analysis, I think, they both had a lucky escape. Fleur, despite all her restlessness, was much better off married to Michael, who introduced her into high society. And Jon was much happier with a nice, quiet homebody like Anne.

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But once they'd married, what then? Fleur wanted Jon mostly because she couldn't have him. Once she had him, all the allure of a "forbidden love" would have been gone. And Jon's infatuation for this spoiled and wilful girl would have died, too, in the face of stark reality. Besides, they had nothing whatsoever in common. Fleur wanted to be the center of attention at every social gathering, whereas Jon wanted the quiet life of a farmer. Can you see Jon---shy, inarticulate Jon---enjoying one of Fleur's hectic parties? Or can you picture Fleur as a farmer's wife, hoeing turnips? No way! They were hopelessly mismatched.

I like to think that if they had gotten a chance, they could have found some compromise about their lifestyle.
Even if they had gotten divorced though, they should have been allowed to try being together.

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Re Fleur’s restlessness
I think she was fated to be restless no matter whom she married. Even if she had never met Jon. There was so much she didn’t know or understand: about herself, about people, about men, about her father, about relationships, About human strength and character, about life. And she wasn’t likely to learn these things—which are so important to personal happiness and contentment in life— without first experiencing disappointment, bitterness, failure, achievements and personal successes that make one feel self worth, regrets, contrition, generosity, selflessness, compassion, and empathy.

Basically, she needed to grow as a person. A lot. A whole lot.

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"Of course, in reality, I know that Galsworthy would not have a story to write"

Very true, but such plot devices have often figured in fiction, and we just suspend our disbelief. I read a novel in which an important plot point was the fact that, for various reasons, the paternity of one character was disguised (for reasons of shame and embarassment prevalent at the time the story was set), and he was believed to be adopted, and so there seemed to be no complication to his romance with his "niece" - however, the truth came out, as it had to, and led to tragic consequences - all of which could have been avoided if the truth hadn't been fudged.

"I don't use a pen: I write with a goose quill dipped in venom!"---W. Lydecker

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I always thought that Jon and Fleur should have been told, especially after it became clear that they were in love. June agreed, despite her dislike for Soames. She had forgiven Irene for stealing Bosinney and had a much bigger heart than Young Jolyon, Irene or any of the supposedly "moral" or "pathetic" people who denied too young people true happiness.

Remember, for those who claim that Fleur only loved Jon because it was forbidden: she met him at June's gallery without knowing ANYTHING about the feud and she was smitten immediately, as was he. Note, also, that she met her future husband, Michael, in the same place and on the same day and barely noticed him. She and Jon were fated to be together, but torn apart by the selfish desires of their parents. Irene only though of her own pain and as someone said, Jo was selfish; he really put Irene at the center of everything, just as Soames had done.

Yes, Fleur had a spoiled way but that wasn't her fault. I think she was drawn to Jon because of his lack of sophistication and simple love of nature. Remember that most of her shallowness (parties, salons, fashion and "collecting" people), comes AFTER she has unwisely married Michael and is tortured by the fact that Jon gave her up. She compensates for a huge hole in her life.

As for Jon being happy with Anne, I think he was fooling himself. If he was that happy, why did he constantly think about Fleur and dream of her, with Anne lying next to him? Why did he let Fleur get close to him, as at Ascot and the dance at Loring?

Above all, why did he sleep with Fleur? And he does consider running off with her afterward, until Anne tells him she's pregnant. Classic! Jon had no idea what he really wanted--he was dishonest with himself and everyone else. As far as I can see, the only genuine person was Fleur. She wore her heart on her sleeve, didn't play games and got shot down for it by the selfishness and false morality of others.

As for Galsworthy's story, the real one, that of Soames and Irene, was based on his own affair with his cousin's wife, Ada, and real events that were worked into the story. They never had children but there was still quite the story there!
She deserves her revenge, and we deserve to die.

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As far as I can see, the only genuine person was Fleur. She wore her heart on her sleeve, didn't play games and got shot down for it by the selfishness and false morality of others.


Fleur deliberately witheld information from Jon so she could maintain control over him. She pushed him to elope to Scotland with her, knowing the real secret without letting him know the truth. She played games with her father (lying about where she was, who she was with, etc.) and lied to Irene's face, telling her that she and Jon had quite unintentionally bumped into each other and that he had brought her to see Robin Hill as a consequence of their chance meting.

She also convinced Jon to lie to his parents. I believe he is fully responsible for that, but she asked him (I cannot recall the exact wording) if he ever lied or deceived his parents and he said no, and she said he needed to lie to them about their being together.

Even Holly, who understood what it was like to be in a relationship with someone of whom her family did not approve (another Forsyte cousin, no less) believed that Jon should stay away from Fleur because she was dishonest.

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Fleur was devious from the get-go. She loved the intrigue of "forbidden fruit," which was what drew her to Jon in the first place. In TO LET, her interest in him grew exponetially AFTER she'd heard there was a family feud. What began as just casual flirtation---"Peek-a-boo!"---in the picture gallery quickly turned into romantic obsession. And why? Because she'd been told she couldn't have this particular boy. That was what made him so special. Jon represented a challenge, and it was Fleur's nature to go chasing after the unattainable. There was nothing wrong with Michael Mont except that he was always too easy. From the first Michael adored her and even Fleur's parents encouraged the match, so with Michael there would never be any challenge for her to overcome.

Winning back Jon became Fleur's obsession, and to achieve that she constantly lied and schemed. She didn't wear her heart on her sleeve at all. Quite the reverse, in fact. Galsworthy tells us that "She was mistress of her face and movements now [in SWAN SONG] as she had never been when she and Jon were babes in the wood." After six years of a lukewarm marriage, along with all her experiences in Society, Fleur had learned to dissemble. She continued to show Michael affection and "no one, watching her, would have guessed that she wanted another in his place." (Galsworthy's words, not mine.) Jon represented her one serious defeat, which she now meant to wipe out by winning him back. She saw Anne as competition and just an annoying obstacle in her way. She saw Michael as a "dear", but someone gullible enough to be hoodwinked and deceived. Fleur was riding for a fall and granted, she learned a very hard lesson in the end. But were she and Jon really star-crossed lovers?

I don't think so. In the final analysis Fleur was simply a spoiled brat. Part of the problewm was her having way too much time on her hands. Aside from her one stint of work, running that canteen during the General Strike, she had nothing to do but look pretty. Most of her life consisted of shallow social events, parties and concerts. When Jon returned to England he gave her a brand-new, more exciting goal. And being bored and idle, she naturally got into mischief. Her obsession with him returned in full force...and it was an obsession very much like Soames's desire for Irene, based on wrong-headed thinking.

And Jon? Galsworthy tells us that despite his straying, Jon genuinely loved his wife: "For in his heart he knew that Anne was more his mate, more her with whom he could live and move and have his being, than ever Fleur could be." Residual feelings from the past weren't enough to make him forsake a basically happy marriage. Ultimately, even without Anne's pregnancy, Jon would never have chosen Fleur. After the affair ended her pain was very real but she got the wake-up call she needed. Michael was the man who truly loved and supported her; Jon, the one who consistently let her down. Fleur already had something very good, and only a spoiled brat like herself would have demanded more.

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It sounds as though you're blaming Fleur for lying, by citing the results of her loveless marriage to Michael! How can she be blamed six years before she "learned to dissemble"? She was acting out of desperation, since she loved Jon so deeply, even years later. Yes, she lied eventually and schemed, but ONLY because she was thoroughly thwarted at every turn, by Soames, Holly, Jolyon and Irene. She knew that operating behind their (VERY SELFISH) backs was the only way to be with Jon.

He was, as she said, a weak-willed Mama's boy, tied to Irene's apron strings. He couldn't make a decision of his own, not at age 19 and later, when married. If this was all Fleur's fault, then why does Jon have sex with her, betraying the wife he supposedly loves so much? I'm not buying it! He still wants Fleur but is too gutless and afraid of his mother to act on it. And people say that FLEUR is a "selfish" "Spoiled brat"? My vote goes to Jon for that!

When you say that "Fleur had something very good"...what was THAT? Marriage to a guy who was NICE, but whom she never loved? That's not very good, but agony. Yes, she made a mistake in marrying Michael on the rebound, but she was very young and desperate Just as Irene was when she married Soames!

Unless someone has experienced love at first sight, they should not presume to say what Fleur and Jon felt. And unless someone has married the wrong person, especially at a young age, only to find that there's no love, but liking only, and no passion, then they should not pass judgment on Fleur.

As for Jon "loving" his wife, this is NOT the same as his seeing her as the one with whom " live and move and have his being". Compatibility? Sure. But that is NOT love! Not even close. I've known many "compatible" people with whom I could live, etc, but I didn't love them. In many cases, I barely liked them!" Jon, like Fleur is "settling". We know, in Galsworthy's later writings, that Fleur is never happy with Michael. I would bet a LOT that Jon isn't truly happy with Anne either. Staying with someone because you impregnated them doesn't create love, but often resentment.

Nothing is what it seems. Everything is a test. Rule #1: Don't...get...caught.

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Even if Galsworthy had written that story it dill would have been a disaster. The issue was less about how their parents' secrets kept them apart and more about how much Fleur was like her father. She had been indulged her whole life by a father who never told her no. Jon was just something else she owned and if they had gotten married instead of breaking up, he would have felt as suffocated as his mother did.

Fluer would have been the kind of wife who was used to getting whatever she wanted and I can imagine that if Jon wouldn't or didn't have the money to indulge her she would have run to her father for the money. This way the two of them could have a sort of happy ending.

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In the 2003 version, Fleur did tell her father that she would have married Jon in her underwear.
I don't really know if she says anything similar in this version.
However, believing that Fleur cared more about money and possessions than about Jon is unfair.

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