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OT: Mike Nesmith of The Monkees Passes (Hitchcock and Tarantino Relevance)

posted 2 years ago by ecarle (14979)
12 replies | jump to latest

Yes, its OT, but my feeling here is that Nesmith and The Monkees are "of a time" that fits in with some of my Psycho musings here.

The Monkees debuted on NBC TV in the TV season of 1966-1967. The same month that The Monkees debuted, NBC launched its 1966-1967 movie season with "Rear Window." Came the second season of The Monkees (1967-1968) North by Northwest hit CBS and The Birds hit NBC -- and became the highest rated movie on TV to date. Meanwhile also in the 1967-1968 season, Psycho got its ratings-busting local airings in NYC, LA and other cities.

So in 1966 and 1967 and 1968 the Monkees and Hitchcock were of a piece -- top rated TV entertainment with a youth base audience.

Amazingly given their popularity on the radio and record sales, The Monkees only lasted two seasons, but given how many episodes were produced back then(ALL series produced more) it was more like four seasons today.

Over the course of those two seasons -- two years -- the Monkees released, by my count, five albums. The Beatles -- only two (Sgt Pepper and Magical Mystery Tour.) Here are the titles of the five Monkee albums, 1966-1968:

The Monkees
More of the Monkees
Headquarters

Pisces, Aquarious, Capricorn and Jones , Ltd
The Birds, the Bees, and the Monkees

The first three albums -- released in LESS THAN A YEAR -- were big hit albums and yielded big radio hits -- Last Train To Clarksville, I'm a Believer, I Wanna Be Free. And from the final two ...Pleasant Valley Sunday, Daydream Believer.

But the Monkees had a ton more great songs -- and many of those were written or sung by Mike Nesmith. He was the coolest of the group -- even if Lil' British Davy Jones was the cutest.

My personal joke: whereas the rest of the young world pretty much ditched the Monkees after Headquarters, I stuck by them to the very end. Sort of like I stick by Tim Burton today. Or QT today. Once a fan, always a fan.

This all paid off a few years ago when I saw the then-surviving two Monkees -- Mike Nesmith and Mickey Dolenz -- in concert. Yes, I did. And because I bought ALL the Monkee albums, I knew ALL the songs. Even the obscure ones. And all the Nesmith ones. And his were among the best, the "true rockers."

Known today: in the beginning, The four Monkees were hired as actors, not musicians. They didn't play their own instruments on their songs. They didn't much write their songs but here are some who did: Carole King! Neil Diamond! Boyce and Hart! (Yeah, them.)

And they certainly did their own singing. Davy Jones had the cutie pie voice, but both Mickey Dolenz and Mike Nesmith had good voices in their own rights. Nesmith had a Texas drawl to add a country touch to his songs. The "quiet Monkee" -- Peter Tork -- had a funny voice and, just like Ringo, sang novelty tunes.

The Monkees were a perfect group, with perfect music, for us "kids" of that time. We could enjoy the tunes without any regard for their "bona fides." They were just good songs. And far better songs that the bubble gum music that would be coming later from The Archies and The Partridge Family.

As a " movie matter,' the Monkees TV episodes were fun and exciting "buddy movies for kids" -- these guys were following the Marx Brothers and the Beatles(who only made two movies "for fun") in giving us a weekly dose of camaraderie and comedy, usually climaxing with a "get them!" chase(shades of NXNW and Rushmore) cut to their latest song like a music video.

Indeed, 20 years later with the coming of MTV, the Monkees and their shows came back as an example of "the first music videos." They were hot all over again.

Well -- three of them. Mike Nesmith famously got rich because his mother invented Liquid Paper and famously refused to reunite with the other three.

In more recent years, Mike came back. And with the deaths of Jones and Tork, Mike "paired up" with Mickey -- the two had a final concert less than a month before Nesmith died!

The Monkees rather "shadowed" the Beatles for a few years there. No one is saying that the Monkees were a bigger deal, but they were beloved in their own way. And now they are down to one: Mickey. And the Beatles are down to two: Paul and Ringo.

And count me in among the 60's kids who very much LIKED the Monkees in all ways: their music, their series, their comedy team itself(we boys prided ourselves on being matched up by the girls with a Monkee, more so than a Beatle.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Quentin Tarantino, in his novelization of "Once Upon A Time in Hollywood," gave Sharon Tate this "opinion" (favorable) of the Monkees circa their biggest years of success:

Page 167:

BEGIN:

"(Sharon) would never tell this to Roman(Polanski), or any of their hip friends like John and Michelle Phillips and or Cass Elliott or Warren Beatty, but to be completely honest, she liked the Monkees more than the Beatles.

She knows they're not even a real group. They're just a TV show made to capitalize on the popularity of the Beatles. Neverless, in her heart of hearts, she prefers them. She thinks Davy Jones is cuter than Paul McCartney(as evidenced by her attraction to Roman and Jay Sebring, she does have an attraction to cute short guys who look like 12-year old boys. ) She thinks that Mickey Dolenz is funnier than Ringo Starr. She's more attracted to Mike Nesmith's "quiet one" than to George Harrison. And Peter Tork seems just as much of a hippie as John Lennon but less pretentious and probably a nicer fellow. Yeah, sure , the Beatles write their own music, but what the fk does Sharon care about all that? If she likes Last Train to Clarksville better than A Day in the LIfe, she likes it better..."

END

Ha. Well. First of all, we can figure that none of those thoughts are the thoughts of Sharon Tate back then; they are the thoughts of QT TODAY. And fair enough thoughts they all are(though I see Peter, and not Mike, as 'the quiet Monkee.". ) Truth be told, I think the Beatles DID like the Monkees and sometimes hung out with them US to UK. And The Monkees show was developed by Bob Rafelson, who would do Five Easy Pieces with Jack Nicholson, and Jack Nicholson was a "hanger on" TO the Monkees(he co-wrote their weird sole movie -- Head -- which came out right after they were over as a TV group.) Jack Nicholson's stardom emerged from his connection to the Monkees. (I think they all remained friends even after Jack got big.)

Anyway, Mike Nesmith was always MY favorite Monkee -- the cool one, the funny one, the one with a career after them -- and though I'm glad that Mickey is still with us...bye bye to another piece of Boomer childhood...

[–] swanstep (2631) 2 years ago

This all paid off a few years ago when I saw the then-surviving two Monkees -- Mike Nesmith and Mickey Dolenz -- in concert. Yes, I did. And because I bought ALL the Monkee albums, I knew ALL the songs. Even the obscure ones. And all the Nesmith ones. And his were among the best, the "true rockers."

Good for you. Nesmith and Dolenz had that well-respected new Monkees album, Good Times, in 2016 to tour off and even a lovely semi-hit single, 'Me& Magdalena' (lead vocal Nesmith):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfruDTmFDUA
They could play their great old songs (which taken together are kind of like a Hard Days Night 2 & a Help! 2 - and who wouldn't want a concert of that?), but mix in well-loved new stuff too. Brilliant.

One thing that stands out to me is Nesmith's lack of ego. He was an excellent song-writer himself going back even back to his pre-Monkees days, but even in 2016 he was happy to sing and record other people's songs as well (Me and Magdalena was written for Nesmith & Dolenz by Ben Gibbard from a band called The Postal Service).

One of Nesmith's early folk tunes was famously recorded by Linda Ronstadt when she was with The Stone Poneys, kicking off her career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qsDgA1q8Y
You can *hear* Ronstadt's whole, key musical persona slot into place on the song. She flips the gender of the song and with her powerful voice suddenly some characteristic, albeit 'sensitive' male thoughts hit so differently. Ronstadt's '70s super-success was built on her repeatedly, intoxicatingly *playing* the hot chick with the voice who marches to the beat of a different drum, who boys won't let be but who none can keep, who falls in love easily but who is still unhappy and can't stay, and so on. In this way Nesmith's place in shaping musical history would be secured even by this one early song. Amazing.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Good for you.

---

Seeing "Mickey and Mike" in concert? Yes, it WAS good for me. I was surprised myself at how deep the feelings were as those very serviceable songs kicked in, one after the other -- and I was personally amused when they elected to do songs that got no radio play at all -- but I knew them.

Look, to admit a liking for The Monkees -- who arrived just ahead of The Doors and Cream and Zepplin and not to worry I liked THEM too -- is admitting a liking for "fake rock," basically pop music manufactured by other people with the four Monkees fronting it.

Also -- they were from the latter part of my childhood, which is a fun time, yes?

I recall this: I DID like a lot of TV series in the 60's -- all the spy shows, and The Monkees for the music and comedy, some of the mystery shows like Burke's Law and Ironside -- and then -- almost instantaneously came the 70's, I had grown up a few years and I pretty much stopped watching TV altogether. I made an exception for monthly Columbo episodes. I had no interest in the yelling and caterwauling of All in the Family, for this Hitchcock fan it was like all eIegance had left the room. (I believe Sanford and Son got the only real laughs I could find on TV. Redd Foxx -- funny.) Also instantaneously, my interest shifted more heavily to movies -- big budgets, the best scripts, something entirely different from TV. And thanks to revival theaters in LA, a ton of movie pleasures from the past.

With regard to The Monkees, by 1970 I had outgrown the next generation of "bubblegum" and kids shows -- The Partridge Family and The Brady Bunch -- and that was it. But I had this lingering pleasure: let's face it, The Monkees was buddy comedy for BOYS -- guys in the making. As the Beatles left the stage, too (a bigger deal, sure) we shifted our attention to Chase and Belushi and Bill Murray and Dan Akroyd and Steve Martin -- the "movie" part of the Monkees (not the music) is what would continue on.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Nesmith and Dolenz had that well-respected new Monkees album, Good Times, in 2016 to tour off and even a lovely semi-hit single, 'Me& Magdalena' (lead vocal Nesmith):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfruDTmFDUA

---

Leaving the "movie" part of The Monkees behind (by which I mean the comedy stuff on their TV show, which at once aped the two Beatles comedies and foreshadowed the counterculture represented by Rafelson and Nicholson)...back to the music.

Not at all embarrassing as POP. Kind of in the middle of the road with The Association and The Lovin' Spoonful and Paul Revere and the Raiders. Usually driven by a sing-a-along exhilaration and a good beat. For Pete's Sake. I'm a Believer. I'm Not Your Stepping Stone(Dolenz actually had a pretty soulful voice.) You Just May Be the One.

--

They could play their great old songs (which taken together are kind of like a Hard Days Night 2 & a Help! 2 - and who wouldn't want a concert of that?),

---

Yep. "At the movies," The Beatles sort of ended before they began -- A Hard Day's Night(b/w) and Help (color) -- and evidently The Monkees were designed to fill the gap. Also, the Monkees brought back the kind of fast song guitar driven pop that Beatles were abandoning for Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and I Am the Walrus.

--

but mix in well-loved new stuff too. Brilliant.

---

I need to check that new stuff out. Did they write their own material, or continue to get help?

And this: The Monkees are from my sixties childhood, but the 80's were their nostalgic "second coming." MTV and its music videos were clear successors to the "comedy chases cut to songs" that ended each Monkees episode (A "mini climax each week" -- a small scale version of Rushmore in NXNW to my young eyes.)

As I recall, Nesmith -- newly wealthy from his mother's Liquid Paper inheritance -- kept his distance most of the time, but would occasionally appear the other three. Then after their 80's resurgence...they faded away again.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

After the 80's, I suppose the Monkees in one form or another -- often in pairs of two -- stayed afloat. There was always a venue to play.

The deaths of each one had a certain importance in the press coverage that rather amazed me. But there were a lot of Boomer kids who remembered the Monkees warmly, I guess. Davy went first. Then the quiet Peter. Now rather the "top guy"(Nesmith). Leaving Mickey to carry on.

Trivia: On "Happy Days" in the 70's, The Fonz was cast with Henry Winkler. The only other guy up for the part -- at the end of the casting culling -- was Mickey Dolenz. He could have found another career. Ouch.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

swanstep wrote:

One thing that stands out to me is Nesmith's lack of ego. He was an excellent song-writer himself going back even back to his pre-Monkees days,

--

Yes, I rather always lose track that the "pre-fab four"(The Monkees) was evidently a mix of two actors(Mickey and Davy) and two actual musicians(Nesmith and Tork) ..and evidently Nesmith had the musical chops to help push the Monkees into REALLY playing their instruments.

--

but even in 2016 he was happy to sing and record other people's songs as well (Me and Magdalena was written for Nesmith & Dolenz by Ben Gibbard from a band called The Postal Service).

--

Good to know that someone else was STILL wiling to write for those aging Monkees. I suppose when I said that I knew "all the songs" at that concert a few years back, I meant only the actual original Monkees songs of 1966-1968. I do recall some new stuff. I recall it was good.

--

One of Nesmith's early folk tunes was famously recorded by Linda Ronstadt when she was with The Stone Poneys, kicking off her career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qsDgA1q8Y
You can *hear* Ronstadt's whole, key musical persona slot into place on the song. She flips the gender of the song and with her powerful voice suddenly some characteristic, albeit 'sensitive' male thoughts hit so differently.

---

There's a story about the Nesmith-written "Different Drum" (a hit for Rondstadt) that made sense to me. Nesmith pitched the song for the Monkees, but his bosses said: "Its not a Monkees song," and Nesmith said "Wait a minute, I AM a Monkee" but...those bosses were RIGHT. The tune feels better for a young woman to sing; the Monkees hits were "guy songs" in the main (except perhaps for Davy's melt-the-girls hearts melodrama like "I Wanna Be Free.")

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Ronstadt's '70s super-success was built on her repeatedly, intoxicatingly *playing* the hot chick with the voice who marches to the beat of a different drum, who boys won't let be but who none can keep, who falls in love easily but who is still unhappy and can't stay, and so on.

---

Ah, the 70's. As the movies had their new movie stars(Nicholson, DeNiro, Keaton), pop rock(or folk rock) had its own "movie stars" too, mainly men -- James Taylor, Jimmy Buffett, Jackson Browne and later Billy Joel from the Eastside -- and mainly white(though Stevie Wonder certainly was a superstar)...they were really "shadow movie stars" who outshone the REAL movie stars. None bigger, I might add, than Elton John.

And among the men were a few women. Carole King, Joni Mitchell and a coupla sexpots -- Linda Rondstadt and Carly Simon. Carly had stage fright and didn't tour much, which rather left the field clear to Linda to take her sexy lil' number on tour and break a lot of hearts.

--

In this way Nesmith's place in shaping musical history would be secured even by this one early song. Amazing.

---

"Different Drum"? Yes, I suppose you could say that Nesmith "saw it coming." Which reminds me -- Stephen Stills was almost a Monkee -- but his teeth were bad. The show needed "TV stars" with good smiles.

I will assume that the 70's were rough on the Monkees as the backlash to their "fakeness" kicked in and these other stars took the field. It was fitting that the Monkees had to wait until the more corporate 80's -- and MTV -- to be welcomed back.

[–] Alocirp (680) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

considering Psycho is one of the greatest horror/thrillers of all time, and myself (and surely others) would very much enjoy legitimately discussing the ACTUAL film.

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Then, by all means...discuss it. The ACTUAL film. Make a post , generate a thread, nothing stopping you. The Board is public, its yours.

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Unfortunately, the prerequisite tedium and frustration of filtering through all of your bullshit makes the idea of such an endeavor completely unappealing.

--

The "filter" is simple. The ignore button.

There, all solved.

Post your own comments, ignore mine.

And I would certainly love to read other people's comments on Psycho and -- of similar importance around here -- how that one film intersects through its own era and the decades after with a plethora of other films.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I rarely respond to these kinds of comments, but seeing as we here have survived to a new year, and you have chosen New Year's Day for a particularly unkind greeting, I will add these points:

ONE: I post on other boards, on other movies.

TWO: I really don't even come to this board much more than once a week, sometimes longer. If more of my posts are here than others --that's because others don't post here. The older movie boards are generally quite dead. You should see the Frenzy board.

THREE: Their number may be small, but I certainly come here to read a select group of really knowledgeable, gracious, and intelligent people and to LEARN from them both in terms of what they know and how they express it. If I have to make the sacrifice of attacks on my less polished and edited comments to draw them out...the pleasure is all mine. You should read those people. I will wait to see if you can match them.

FOUR: OT = Ignore. And yet, this OT thread about Michael Nesmith led ANOTHER poster to share with us Nesmith's spoof of the shower scene in Psycho. I did not know that existed..now it does. Thanks to another poster. That's how it works here.

FIVE: The conundrum: "You are ONLY allowed to post on Psycho here...so why do you post all the time about Psycho?" I don't . Recently, a post was tied to the remake of West Side Story and its relevance to Psycho and ..voila! we got some really erudite folks expanding the limits of the Psycho board to greater heights. A fine read that thread is. We have often used this board to take in Psycho in terms of modern works of popular art that have followed it -- the sequels, Psycho, Hitchcock(with Anthony Hopkins), The Girl(about The Birds, mentions Psycho), Bates Motel.

I fear that little, if any of this , will matter to you, and I will take your criticisms to heart (as Norman said, "Of course, I've thought about it myself.")

Happy New Year. I look forward to reading your posts about Psycho in the year to come.

[–] Alocirp (680) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] christomacin (4553) 2 years ago

Your posts are a bit long, but I don't find them poorly written or incoherent. They are still generally a lot more interesting than most of the drivel on this site, in any case. And of course, no one has to read anything they don't want to. So the solution to navigate away to another thread is there for the taking at all times.