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What will the US do to be sure to win the Ukrainian conflict?

posted 2 years ago by TrentnQuarantino (8673)
18 replies | jump to latest

How far will we go? We have not worked Ukraine for 10 years through our intelligence agencies and spent $60+ billions of dollars to lose the war and have Russia emerge victorious.

After loss after loss on the world stage the US is in a place where I don't think our leaders, or the real leaders who are the money behind our fake leaders will allow that to happen. I think they would sooner retreat to their nuclear bunkers and let the rest of us get blown up than lose this last American battle for credibility.

I'm not crazy about Joe Biden, but this "FORCED WAR" has been in the planning and offing for at least a decade, and probably long before. It is not Joe Biden's war, it is the American intelligence establishment's war. We've had the CIA in Ukraine making contacts with the Nazis, and installing 3 of the last 4 Presidents in Ukraine, Yushenko, Poroshenko, and Zelensky, and arming them to the teeth.

Ukraine armed to the teeth as the biggest European country is a danger to everyone, because if you take the time listen to Zelensky you see how unreasonable he is. He has put into legislation to make it illegal and against Ukraine's laws for anyone to negotiate with Vladimir Putin. Zelensky is having opposition people, in this case peace activists seeking negotiation assassinated, and has threatened people all over the world who do not support Ukraine and speak out with contrarian facts ( of which there are tons ) with assassination. Few think Henry Kissinger, on the Ukrainian kill-list, is a great guy, but do you really want to see Ukrainian agents murder him, of find his children and murder them?

Zelensky, and probably the US, thought they could create a big reality TV show on the news and everyone in the world would come to Ukraine's aid, but that is never going to dissuade Russian from jettisoning its existential security concerns. Russia is essentially at war now with Ukraine - based on Ukraine invading Russian territory - the newly annexed regions. With full mobilization, Russia is expected without foreign intervention to win the war by next spring. Meanwhile truths are getting out and European are hot as hell over this threat of their lifestyles - and their lives.

The thing is that after the USSR broke up, there was an initial process that went forward to negotiate the future of Europe. Russia was in a weak spot and was pushed around and taken advantage of by the West, and now Russia wants to renegotiate the settlement with respect to Ukraine - specifically the Russian parts of Ukraine, WHERE RUSSIANS PREDOMINATE, and Ukraine has been trying to militarily genocide and ethnically cleanse Russians from Ukraine. So, in a very real way it is Ukraine that has been expansionist and imperialist by trying to beat down people who want to be autonomous.

How could anyone be so dumb as to see that as a fledgling democracy? Or compare Zelensky to George Washington? That is the baloney our media was shoving down our throats 24x7.

Ukraine had two choices at that time.

1) Ukraine could negotiate in good faith away Donesk and Luhansk - the Donbas which is reasonable for Russia to ask for since Ukraine has been at war with those areas for 8 years and killed 12-14 thousand people there. Not exactly part of their country - that is genocide and ethnic cleansing - making Putin correct about what was going on there. Putin tried for years to negotiate a neutrality for those provinces, and actually refused to annex them, or respect any vote they had to join Russia. Now, he has no choice.

2) The other choice Ukraine had was to go full bore on that genocide and ethnic cleansing, while accusing Russia of imperialism and all kinds of other horrible crimes in the worldwide American supported media ... when in fact it is Ukraine was that committing those crimes. This is what Ukraine chose to do.

So - back to Biden - he had no choice but to go with war - because the US military, and military industrial complex, and probably a bunch of oligarch agreements with us, the US, would target him for assassination if he did not pull the war ripcord just as they did when Kennedy tried to question our operations in Vietnam.

SO, the main question is, with so much at stake in the US, both in money, and international prestige, are we going to find some way to justify using nuclear weapons. I predict that if we do, it will be done under cover of a false flag to make it look as though Russia used nukes first.

SO, what is the purpose of risking the existence of the world on this messed up place, Ukraine. Why does the US hegemony care so much about it? Is it about Ukraine, or is it about Russia, or is it about maintaining monopoly on trade with Europe, and by extension the whole US empire?

[–] brux (14666) 2 years ago

Shhhhht... I thought I was cynical. Hope you're wrong.
Things are shaping up sorta like that. Just listening to PBS Newshour
and they are pushing this dirty-bomb scenario.

Judy Woodruff started out the story, "It has been 8 months since Russia
began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine".

That's BS. Russian went in outnumbered about 3 to 1 ... not something
any country does by choice in a full-scale invasion. Why they called it
their SMO, Special Military Operation.

What is coming up is going to be Russia's full scaled "defense of their
''newly-acquired'' homeland" of Donbas. They will attack with their
regular army and most American military experts privately as saying
Russia prevails by Spring 2023.

The people in the know confusedly have been saying there is no
way Ukraine and defend itself against Russia, let alone demand Putin
be removed from power in Russia - without a wink from the US that
it will defend them.

Without outside help Russia is expected to obliterate Ukraine. Well,
we did hear that before, but if it is true and Ukraine is getting obliterated,
and nukes are the only recourse, a false-flag blaming Russia for using
radiological warfare first would be a reason for the US and/or NATO to
get involved.

I'e said it since this started, this is insane. The world could be hopelessly
f'ed-up in less than a year. This must be wound down!

[–] Satan2016 (23667) 2 years ago

Stop appropriating far-right conspiracy theories! Take some bong hits and let the paranoia take over.

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

I don't think this is a Left-Right thing. This war is put on the Democrats, but you can hardly call the Democrats, Left at this point in history. It's unknown exactly when we hatched this plan to rip Ukraine from any Russian connection. Republican, Democrat, Intelligence State, Deep State, NeoLiberals, NeoConservatives, who began this stupid operation to fire up the Cold War again? Now, since Russia will have zero trust in the US keeping its word, they will be extraordinarily hard on Ukraine and feel they have to take more of it as a buffer, and cripple Ukraine so that they will not be a threat again.

Under Victor Yanukovych the West was trying to completely disengage Ukraine from Russia - precisely because we have known that Ukraine is a key factor to get at Russia. Yanukovych's efforts were to get good trade deals with the EU and to continue to trade with Russia. The US intelligence operations created the revolution to oust him for that. Ukrainians had no idea what was going on because the Ukrainian media was already under Western control.

Now here in the US we see how powerful the media is in manipulating the people. Finally after eight months a few of the most Progressive leaning Democrats decided to stand up for negotiations over Ukraine, something our government was adamant to prevent.

So, now it's pretty much confirmed that without outside military assistance Ukraine will most likely fall by next Spring.

The US has screwed up front and center on the world stage yet again, killing untold numbers of people in Ukraine. Uprooting millions or refugees, wrecking Europe's economies, damaging the US economy, and throwing millions of Americans into poverty at a time when we virtually have no middle class left. Everything we have done is wrong, and the spotlight is on the Democrats. Could not be better for Republicans ... and their lying narratives.

There is no doubt in my mind that Western plutocratic oligarchs are out to destroy the social democracies of Europe, and the social programs in the US - putting the whole world on an equal footing of poverty and misery, and returning the governments of the world to a kind of vicious fascist aristocracy.

[–] GypsyMike (282) 2 years ago

Wasn’t Obama caught on a ‘hot-mike’ prior to his 2nd term whispering to Putin, “I’ll have a little more leeway once I’m elected.”

What was that about?

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

Same old BS. But in the middle of an election no Democrat can say or do anything because Republicans will twist and distort into something unrecognizable.

Remember when Biden was running Republicans said if Biden was elected we could not eat hamburgers any more. And some people, stupid people, Republicans, seem to buy into this kind of garbage.

Very disappointed in Obama myself. He is not what I want to see in the Democratic Party. Rather Bernie Sanders who just said that Republican's attacks on abortion are not going to get Democrats elected - doing something about the economy and the complete decimation of the middle class under Republican and neoliberal rule.

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

The US strategy was to provide military aid to Ukraine and levy economic sanctions against Russia. It will take a change from within for Putin's totalitarian regime to fall. Russia is controlled by one party with sham elections. Putin has basically been in charge for over twenty-two years. Medvedev took over for four years as President but that was just for show. Putin managed to get rid of term limits so he was he able to reclaim his title as President.

Russia started this war by seizing Crimea and invading Eastern Ukraine. They escalated the war this year by invading from multiple fronts. Fortunately, Ukraine did have javelin missiles that were stored away from the eastern front. Russia has been committing war crimes and genocide against the Ukrainian people during their invasion.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/why-russias-war-ukraine-genocide

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/24/russian-tv-presenter-anton-krasovsky-accused-of-inciting-genocide-in-ukraine

Russia invaded Ukraine and illegally annexed Ukrainian territory. Russia has signed several agreements that supposedly guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine's borders but the Russian gangsters don't respect international law.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2022/08/russias-longstanding-problem-ukraines-borders

The US and UK signed the Budapest Memorandum and those two countries made a commitment to help Ukraine maintain the integrity of their borders. The US and UK should continue to assist Ukraine as parties to the Memorandum. Halting the genocide and war crimes is more important but the Memorandum is also significant.

https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/budapest-memorandum-25-between-past-and-future

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

If you look at the US status, we are not so far from being as totalitarian than Russia.
Yesterday, 8 months after the war that no American had anything to say about, and no media outlet reported on the real history of ... finally 30 Democrats meekly got up and said it might be a good idea to negotiate.

Biden could have avoid this whole thing by having talks with Russia and Ukraine. Russia had been laying out what they required and why - and like Henry Kissinger or not, HK understood Russia's needs and resolve on this. The US has gambled on nuclear war, and allowed Ukraine to be destroyed and Europe's economy to be virtually shut down.

The Budapest Agreement was in the 1990's and has been overcome by developments since. Anyone who even brings that up is in a class of stupid like those who compare Putin to Hitler. There is no comparison. It is a non-talking point of the uninformed.

The stupidity of these hawks is not going to change anything. Russia is mobilizing its entire military now that they can frame Ukraine's attacks as attacks on Russia, and instead of having 100,000 Russians facing 800,000 US Armed Ukrainians, the situation has changed. Most military analysts believe that unless the US or NATO come to Ukraine's aid and expand the war, gambling on nuclear war that Ukraine will be in tatters and it will be over next Spring.

Ukraine was never worth plunging the world into war. All the BS fear mongering like Putin is a madman, or Putin wants to take over Europe, or Putin is Hitler ... just look at the history of attempts Russia has made at negotiation. The US forced this situation, and anyone who spends half a day looking at the facts cannot fail to come to that conclusion.

Now our country looks totally incompetent, and has blown money that could have been used to fix America ... but we never do that, because the taken over un-democratic government of America hates Americans and only loves global investment for our billionaire oligarch

[–] GypsyMike (282) 2 years ago

Putin has said that he was interested in re-claiming territory that was once under Russian control. Where are the lines that formed that Russian empire?
Albania, Slavic-territory, Romania, Belarus?
Where does it start and where does it end?

Divide the world into 3’s?

1 Russia gets part of Europe back.
2 China gets Africa and the West Pacific Australia.
3 US gets North and South America.

Can’t these guys just play a game of “RISK” and be done with it?
Without risking human-life?
Nah...that’s just silly, where’s the fun in that. Killing is such a better game and more fun.
And the billionaires will still be billionaires.
US & China has the most Billionaires.

2,700+ recorded worldwide.
The Diamonds ♦️ in a Deck of Playing Cards!

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

> Putin has said that he was interested in re-claiming territory that was once under Russian control.

Untrue. Even if true, there is no way Russia could do that.

Russia does not want part of Europe back because Russia most desires to be part of Europe. It is the US that forbids this to happen - because of economic hegemony.

The US has a game of making sure that every country that we consider competitors we find some reason to attack, sanction, cut off from trade, or vilify. I hate to say it, I really do, but if there is a bad guy here it is the US, and Ukraine. Ukraine in its current situation is trying to get the world to fight Russia in a major World War that will kill thousands more or maybe millions more Ukrainians, decimate their country and screw up Europe and Russia for a long time.

That is exactly what the US and UK wants. Germany, France, Italy, Sweden and Romania all want a negotiated settlement of this - and discontent over the war is growing as the facts get out.

[–] GypsyMike (282) 2 years ago

It was a ‘true’ statement made by Putin!
Why do you think Finland and Poland got jittery rather quickly?

You write really well. You are very knowledgeable as well...

Putin made that comment. Rewind the first few days of the war and check the archives!

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

> Why do you think Finland and Poland got jittery rather quickly?

How do you know that?

Finland is hardly jittery, but they have at least somewhat of a reason to be having been at war with Russia in the past.

The Continuation War, also known as the Second Soviet-Finnish War, was a conflict fought by Finland and Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1944, as part of World War II.[Note 3] In Soviet historiography, the war was called the Finnish Front of the Great Patriotic War.[Note 4] Germany regarded its operations in the region as part of its overall war efforts on the Eastern Front and provided Finland with critical material support and military assistance, including economic aid.[19]

Even the web is weaponized against Russia today. If you search for Russia Finland War you get a war where it appears that Russia invaded Finland, but as usual the truth is nuanced, but it twisted to make Russia look criminal and evil.

St Petersburg court finds Finland guilty of 'genocide' during 1940s Leningrad siege ... The ruling comes nearly 78 years after the siege ended.

Russia has no problem with Finland or Sweden or any other country - but they want those countries to remain neutral - Russia does not want those countries to join NATO. If Finland joins NATO there is an 830 mile border that is almost impossible to defend.

The reason we are hearing all this stuff about NATO and fear-mongering about Russia is that Russia has a specific problem with Ukraine, which picked a fight with Russia using US help. This is all motivated by the military and arms dealers.

The US/West has a periodic and constant history of trying to invade Russia. Russia's actions are defensive. Does that mean there are not the occasional Russian but general who talks about reforming the SU? We have generals who talk about Armageddon and the Rapture too.

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

Russia did INVADE Finland during the Winter War of 1939. Russia and Germany signed the non-aggression pact that would allow each country to have spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. The smaller Finnish army fought the Russians for several months before signing an agreement that ceded over ten percent of their territory to Russia. Russia again made a violent land grab. Russia's sloppy campaign in Finland convinced Hitler that Russia could be defeated BUT the Russian winter is a formidable foe.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-soviet-pact

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/a-short-history-of-the-winter-war

The Finns did ally with Germany during WW2 to get their land back and they did not go too far beyond the borders of their original land. While Britain declared war against Finland, the US never declared war against Finland. Finland maintained neutrality with Russia for the longest time but they will no longer remain neutral since gangsters like Putin have no respect for the law or written agreements.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/05/16/finland-soviet-war-1939-nato/9749755002/

http://countrystudies.us/finland/20.htm * Finnish Continuation War History *

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

I think it is highly likely that if Putin was reported to making a statement like that it was mis-reported or highly exaggerated.

It is true that Putin in the past has said he would like to reform the SU - but that would not be possible or even a good thing. Putin is a Russian patriot who grew up in the USSR. Putin is also a very smart guy, and a fair guy. He lives in a brutal country made far more brutal because the US and UK have been trying to make inroads by spies and debt to take Russia over - as they have with many other countries before. Russia has not taken over any countries ... with the exception of countries that fought with Hitler in WWII.

There is a very interesting movie with Sam Neil called "Reilly: Ace Of Spies" that is a fascinating re-hash of one such episode of attempted revolution in Russia.

Most of the most knowledgeable International Relations experts have consistently been against the US constantly pretending it is the world's policeman and testing the defenses and borders of Russia and China. We are the aggressors here, and we justify it by thousands of references in the media about how terrible Putin and Russia are.

If you can find the link where you say Putin said he as "interested in re-claiming territory that was once under Russian control." The thing is that Russia is the biggest country on Earth - almost 3 times bigger than the US, with half the population. They already have more than they can chew, and if they ever can exploit and develop those resources they will bypass the US as China is starting to. That is what is motivating all of this.

We have turned into a country that rapes the rest of the world, and impoverishes our own people - and must expand our domination for resources and own everything. We have to change that mentality or we will be the cause of the end of the world, and ourselves.

[–] GypsyMike (282) 2 years ago

You did acknowledging that he said that!
That’s a start.
I’m not well versed on European affairs like you are. Arguing or trying to make a point with you would a futile attempt on my part. So I’m going to refrain from dragging myself into a no-win situation with you. I made a ‘simple’ point based on fact. You said my statement was ‘untrue’. I defended my position. Our views differ on many things. I read some of your stuff regarding California. You are too politically motivated by a left-sided ideology. Being neither left or right, I avoid defending or opposing either side. I call out both sides. I don’t have any faith in either one. Liberals or conservatives! Libertarians or fence-sitters. My faith and hope is not in worldly affairs, but I am not numb as to what is going on. You are a warrior for the causes of the left. That’s YOUR thing. There is a hint of hypocrisy in some of the things that you type. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding what side you are actually on. You appear, at times, to love and hate both sides, which is refreshing and confusing. You are down on America at times, then in the next breath you appear liberal. I’m not trying to analyze you, but getting into a heated argument or debate with you seems useless. I will refrain from commenting on future post that you throw up here. I can’t hang with some of your knowledge of things. I’m not going to try. Rock on brother. You have a more informed audience than I can give you. Take care.

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

> You did acknowledging that he said that!

But the implication was not what it has been used to portray. So he may have said words to that effect, but that was not his meaning, and it has been used to accuse him of acting on something that he said a long time ago - once.

When you sit on the fence you are going to get your balls hacked off.

The issue between Left and Right is that Republicans have been taken over completely by plutocratic oligarch that lie, cheat and steal and have declared war on out government and since Reagan have brought our country to hear ruin. They allow no independent thought. They will do anything to win including cheating.

Democrats on the other hand are stuck in a quagmire. Our system now makes them dependent on the money from the plutocrats and corporations to survive. BUT, there is still room for free and independent thinkers on the Left/Democrats. Bernie Sanders is the best example. And the last great vision for America was FDR's that worked to bring prosperity for 50 years and built the largest middle class in history.

Since Reagan that middle class has been viewed as a threat by Republicans who also see democracy and voting as a threat. Look up the Powell Memorandum.

[–] TrentnQuarantino (8673) 2 years ago

> You write really well. You are very knowledgeable as well...

By the way, thank you for the compliment.

You have a very good voice and way to express yourself that is thoughtful and not confrontative, very unique for MovieChat. More like if you look back into the comments that used to happen on IMDB 9+ years ago.

Be well.

[–] GypsyMike (282) 2 years ago

Thank you, you too!

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

Trump did try to disregard the election results BUT Mike Pence did the right thing. The US does have some safeguards in place to provide protections for democracy and its citizenry. The US has a free press while Russia does not have independent media. US citizens are allowed to peacefully protest while Russia is imprisoning anyone who protests their invasion of Ukraine.

Both the capture of Crimea and the invasion this year were done covertly so there was not an opportunity for negotiations. Russia issued a list of demands that were non-starters. The US is assisting Ukraine in its centuries-long attempts to break free of tyrannical Russia.

The article above noted that Ukraine signed agreements with Russia about its borders in 1994, 1997, 2003 and 2010. Ukraine has mostly been trying to move to the west until the Russian puppet Yanukovich attempted to move back towards Russia.

Putin is another Hitler who is trying to commit genocide against the Ukrainian people.

Russia never attempted to negotiate in good faith. The US cannot negotiate with a war criminal and Putin is a war criminal. The US did not force this situation. Russia invaded Ukraine BACK IN 2014. It's that simple.