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Since it's been 10 YEARS since watching S1, can't recall who Reggie is or very much of anything else. But this article also elaborates more about what Rust said and meant:
https://screenrant.com/true-detective-night-country-raymond-clark-time-flat-circle-meaning/
[quote]Raymond Clark repeats Rust Cohle's "Time is a flat circle" quote in True Detective: Night Country's finale, leaving viewers curious about what it could mean. In True Detective season 1, Reggie Ledoux first says, "Time is a flat circle" when Rust holds him at gunpoint at his home. Although Rust initially ridicules him by calling him Nietzsche, he later recalls the quote in True Detective season 1's 2012 timeline and explains how it defines his journey as a detective. Fundamentally, the quote seems to imply that criminal history repeats itself even though detectives like Rust and Marty seek justice.
However, [b]from a philosophical standpoint, Rust explains that if perceived from a higher dimension, time in the three-dimensional world would likely be less linear and more circular and loopy.[/b] Although True Detective: Night Country draws several references to season 1, its most confusing season 1 nod revolves around Raymond Clark saying, "Time is a flat circle." Season 1 had already made the quote quite confusing and open to interpretation, but season 4 makes its implications all the more complex.
RELATED
Rust Cohle's Best True Detective Season 1 Quote Still Defines The HBO Show's Story, 10 Years On
After 10 years, Rust Cohle's best quote from True Detective season 1 still seems to be one of the primary themes in the HBO show's overarching story.
What Raymond Clark Means When He Says "Time Is A Flat Circle"
Raymond Clark says, "Time is a flat circle" in True Detective: Night Country when he talks about Annie, implying that she returned from her deathbed, and this was not the first time she did it. His explanation seems to portray Annie as Goddess Sedna, who, according to mythology, returns to punish those who disrupt the balance of nature.
Clark's quote also seems to disclose how [i]Otis Heiss experienced the same injuries as the Tsalal researchers even before Annie was born.[/i]
[/quote]
[b]The MAIN ISSUE of S4 is RATIONALITY vs SPIRITUALITY.
Navarro champions Spirituality/ Danver's champions RATIONALITY [/b]
As a Scientist Clark should also represent RATIONALITY, but we see by what's written in his NOTEBOOKS about "SHE'S AWAKE" etc., that he's SLIPPED into the same kind of state of MADNESS as Navarro's sister Julia (who also kills herself the same way as Clark does). And Otis and the delivery guy also described Clark as being a MADMAN. So that's why he's HIDING at the station by himself. He's HIDING from ANNIE who he thinks is AWAKE again and out to get him. And that's also what he thinks happened to the other Scientist. He thinks ANNIE came back to seek revenge upon them.
With the way that we see the women attacking the men, they may not have even realized that Clark wasn't there with the rest of them. And they also didn't think the men would be stupid enough not to get dressed again as a way to save their lives. So murder also wasn't the goal. The goal was simply to FRIGHTEN them. And if Danver's and Navarro and all of HANK's other buddies couldn't find Clark, how were the women supposed to find him??
Heiss most likely got the HEROIN from Clark who wanted to know how HEISS had survived his injuries. Because Heiss was also wearing ANNIE'S PINK PARKA that he'd gotten from Clark.
And whereas you didn't like the characters, I thought they were BRILLIANTLY portrayed, so much so that they should also be NOMINATED for EMMY's for that OUTSTANDING PERFORMACE they've given to us in EP. 5 where PETER kills his father in order to save the life of Danver's (who had become a surrogate mother to him).
And how can this be the WORSE TOWN ever when they banded together to get rid of the MINE company that was polluting them and killing them and the other animals that they hunted and fished for as a source of food???
The way I see it, this was a VERY CLEVER town that was JUSTIFIED when they took matters into their own hands and put an end to the pollution and killing that was taking place ... by letting the BIG LIE about the SLAB AVALANCHE BACKFIRE ... that the woman who runs the mine promoted ... by releasing the other video of CLARK confessing about how the SCIENTIST asked the mine to pollute the town for them ... while they also produced BOGUS pollution numbers as a way to indicate the mine had not polluted the place.
In other words, a group of SCIENTIFIC MEN who should have been the MOST RATIONAL were the MOST IRRATIONAL. And the SPIRITUALITY and ETHICAL MORALITY of the members of the town who went to WAR with them also WON their battle with them (as illustrated by the CLOSED sign that we see on the MINE SIGN at the end when the hunter goes by it).
What's interesting is how Danver's DREAMS about playing the [b]PEEK-a-BOO, I SEE YOU[/b] game with her son HOLDEN when she's SLEEPING, whereas Navarro sees VISIONS of him while she's AWAKE.
But then at the end of the story Danver's also sees the vision of her son UNDER the ICE when she's AWAKE, which leads to her being less HOSTILE and DEFENSIVE about SPIRITUAL matters, and enables Navarro to finally tell her what her son said to her.
In other words, Danver's also knew that her son was still playing the SAME GAME with her even after he's not here anymore, which also gives her the PEACE of MIND that she was previously lacking.
So whereas you don't see her relationship with Holden as being a REAL POINT of EMPHASIS, for me it was DEFINITELY the MAIN POINT of the story due to the way what Navarro tells her enables Danver's to settle down, stop acting out, and become a much less HOSTILE person around everyone (which is also illustrated for us in the scene where we see her with her laughing with her step daughter who's also got the TATTOO back on her chin again).
Since Travis was the father of Rust from S1, Clark probably knew Travis, which is probably also where Rust got his "TIME is a FLAT CIRCLE" line from. So the connection would be both Clark and Rust were repeating something that they previously heard Travis saying.
And what that line means is TIME isn't a LINEAR process ... due to the way GHOSTS or SPIRITS who die in this TIME can still CIRCLE BACK or COME BACK again to this place ... in order to relay messages (like Travis does to Rose) ... or seek revenge upon others who did them wrong (such as Clark assumes Annie was doing to him).
Yes, imo, S1 SUCKED due to the way that we see the girls playing with their dolls, arranged the exact same way as people were who murdered the girl in the video, yet NOTHING is ever mentioned as to why we saw that scene.
Then when the story also ends with the KILLER being the lawnmower man, who we'd only seen for about 1 or 2 seconds riding by in the background, I was plenty pissed and felt like watching it had been a HUGE WASTE of one's time.
On the other hand, I LOVED the first 6 episodes of S5 of FARGO that I did get to watch. Jennifer is so good at being the BITCHY RICH Mother-in-Law. And her daughter-in-law also SHINES BIGTIME in her role. And she also sums up well the expression or the reason why one should "never judge a book by it's cover."
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Don't have HULU though, so won't be able to watch the Murder Show. It's also supposed to have been aired on the FX channel, but can't find it listed there.
PLUS the last season of FARGO (which I missed when it aired on FX channel) only has 6 episodes of 10 available for viewing ON DEMAND.
So if FX ever has MatEotW available for viewing ON DEMAND, chances are they probably won't have ALL 7 of it's episodes either.
Should probably also call the cable co to complain and see if that can get them to load episodes 7 through 10 of S5 of Fargo.
And Thank you for posting a message letting me know that you've read them.
They are "Well-written" aren't they ... and VERY INSIGHTFUL as well.
I give it an [b]A+ [/b] due to the way that it explores the AGE OLD PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION of "RATIONALITY vs SPIRITUALITY" so well.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230321458_3
Spirituality and Rationality
[quote]Rationalism gradually attained its dominant position in Western culture from the nineteenth century. By rationalism we mean a way of life dominated by positive science as the ultimate source of truth and/or by utility maximization and rational choice as the ultimate criteria for ethics and management. The consequences of this dominance of the rational in Western culture and business life are ambiguous. On the credit side we find growing prosperity and improved material conditions of life and life expectations. On the debit side are the collapse of communities and the overexploitation of our ecosystems, causing unprecedented problems.
Is spirituality -- as a way of exploring the sources of our deeper selves and the ultimate purpose of life -- a means to overcoming the deficits of modern rationalism? At least spirituality aims at discovering meta-scientific sources for TRUTH, such as WISDOM, TRADITION, INTROSPECTION and MEDITATION, and it cultivataes meta-utilitarian sources for decision making ...
Neither RATIONALITY nor SPIRITUALITY requires making one choice to the exclusion of the other. The challenge is to find the right priority.
[/quote]
Keywords
[i]These keywords were added by machine and not by the authors. This process is experimental and the keywords may be updated as the learning algorithm improves.[/i]
So AI is also writing definitions of our philosophies for us now???
[i][quote]Holden was barely mentioned in the first 5 episodes and he turned out to be significant to Danver's story.[/quote] [/i]
Several times throughout the story we see Danver's dreaming about Holden and playing "Peek-a-Boo" with him in the scenes where she says:
[b]I SEE YOU[/b]
So when Navarro tells her that Holden told her that "He SEES DANVERS," she also understood exactly what her son meant and the reason why he said that to her.
Just like Holden speaks to Danvers through Navarro, Navarro's mother speaks to her by way of LUND who told her that her mother was waiting for her (to tell her what her Native Name was). After that LUND also dies.
But both Danvers and Navarro resisted the messages that her son and Navarro's mother were trying to convey to them.
The TIE IN with S1 was the SPIRAL SYMBOL which was drawn on LUND's forehead (thus also what enables Navarro's mother to speak to her through him)???
The other TIE IN is the "TIME is a FLAT CIRCLE" remark that Clark makes (which indicates TIME isn't a LINEAR PROGRESSION ... due to the way GHOSTS or the SPIRITS of our dead loved ones can come back to this TIME again as a way to relay messages to us or to seek revenge upon us the way that Clark assumed Annie's Ghost was doing).
Since what happened to the Scientists was because they killed Annie, isn't the MAJOR question (as you've put it) both what happened to her and then to them??? Unlike you, I see no way to separate the situation where we found out in Ep. 6 what happened to both Annie and her killers.
And since we also found out the reason why the Scientist died in Ep. 5 (when they discovered they had hidden the pollution of the mine by producing bogus numbers), wasn't that also revealed to us in penultimate episode???
How else does one resolve the ongoing traumas that both Navarro and Danvers suffered??? Both lost close family members (Danvers her son and husband/Navarro her sister). And both dealt with the trauma of COVERING UP the death of Wheeler, only to find themselves in still another situation where they had to help COVER UP the death of HANK for Peter.
And then they also couldn't stay to help him CLEAN UP Hank's BLOOD and dispose of the body of OTIS because of the storm which they needed to COVER UP their footprints at the ICE CAVES (which were located on mine property which was also surveyed by security cameras).
In other words, imo, finding out the reason for the DEATH of ANNIE was the momentum heading into the end. But I also agree that the CREST of the ROLLERCOASTER RIDE comes in Ep. 5 when Peter kills his father HANK to stop him from killing Danvers (who had also become a surrogate mother for him). Because after that scene the rest of what happens to Clark did feel like coasting downhill and wrapping up loose ends (with our also already knowing how HANK's the one who moved Annie's body to another different location as a way to COVER UP what had really happened to her).
If Danver's hadn't taken a nap to dream about her son and woke up freezing in the cold, she probably wouldn't have been in a frame of mind to see him under the ice and fallen into it (which then leads to her letting go of her defensive hostility and asking Navarro what her son had said to her).
So how else would you have wrapped things up???
Just read the Wikipedia summary of what happens in the episodes of "Murder at the End of the World," but remain clueless as to what's going on. There's just too many names of too many characters to keep track of without seeing them. But I also see how it got good reviews.
Have you seen the newest FARGO story yet?
For some reason ON DEMAND only loaded the first 6 episodes (leaving no way to watch Ep. 7,8,9 or 10 of it). So that's also another really good story that you might want to check out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fargo_(season_5)
The leading female character in it is even more CLEVER and VIOLENT than Navarro. But she also dresses and behaves like a domesticated homemaker who wouldn't harm a fly.
I'd rank TD seasons as 4, 3, 2 and 1 (in last place).
[quote]It was seemingly pulled out of thin air with no discernible thread(s) to the rest of the season for the major plot-points. There was nothing we could piece together [/quote]
What about the HANDPRINT that they found on the shoe or the boot of one of the Scientist that was left on the ice and belongs to the character who is missing parts of her 2 fingers???
In Ep. 1 Navarro sees the hand of this character when she arrests the guy who hit this woman.
Since the character missing 2 fingers was presented to us right away in Ep. 1, and then her handprint was probably also displayed to us in Ep. 2, before we finally see it again on the HATCH COVER in Ep. 6, doesn't that leave us with the kind of thread to follow that you say is missing ???
When we have those kind of "BREAD CRUMBS" we can follow, isn't that something we can piece together and go: "I knew it!" or "Man I was thinking that!"???
And when HANK hides the Evidence Box inside of his place that contains info regarding Annie, and then HITS his son for taking it (when it also doesn't really belong to Hank), wasn't that also something that we can piece together as an indication that Hank was somehow involved in what happened to Annie???
Several people at another message board (reddit) figured out the woman with the missing fingers was involved in what happened to the Scientist. They also posted screen shots of the HANDPRINT there to prove it.
Haven't seen or even heard of this other story that you mentioned.
And I'm also sorry you found this story to be too convoluted.
I definitely enjoyed watching it and thought it was very well done.
In what way did you find it to be arbitrary?
Can you be more specific?
Provide some examples so that we can better comprehend what it is that you mean???
[i][quote]all the dead people everyone kept seeing. What was that all about in the end???[/quote][/i]
Rose said ghosts visit for 3 reasons: 1. because they miss you 2. want to tell you something you should know 3. they want to take you with them.
Perhaps Travis shows Rose how to find the bodies because he died of cancer (which the Scientist caused by asking for more pollution)??? So maybe he's letting her know his death has been revenged???
What's even more curious is how [b]the NECKLACE (the cross of Navarro's mother that she threw out the window onto the highway) ends up tangled up in DANVER's hair when she's sleeping in Clark's bed at Tsala. Did Clark find it??? Is that how it got in his bed??? Julia also saw it on the body under her bed at the LIGHTHOUSE (which is also why she leaves and kills herself).[/b]
I was hoping Navarro would ask Peter to do a computer search for PROFESSORS so that we could have found out more about the background of ROSE and what kind of articles she'd written (like we saw the other background info regarding the Scientist).
But unfortunately whatever kind of a PROFESSOR she use to be will also remain a mystery.
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Here's Part of Another REVIEW:
https://www.vulture.com/article/true-detective-night-country-recap-season-4-episode-6-part-6-finale.html
[quote]Lizâs reticence to feel stands in tension with her capacity to care. I canât think of any more crushing question than the one this show has cruelly posed to Liz: Did my baby call for me as he died? You can believe that Holden died instantly and peacefully or not. You can believe his screams of âMommyâ are echoes from the accident or the cries of an eager ghost or a motherâs worst fears reverberating for years.
Leah huddles on Kaylaâs sofa and leaves Liz a voicemail: âJust donât die out there or anything, please.â Itâs [b]a teenagerâs guarded version of calling out for Mommy.
If you decide to walk out on the ice, Danvers tells Navarro, try to come back. Itâs what Qaavik asked of Evangeline last week, what Leah wants from her stepmom, and what Kayla begs of Peter: Just come back. Like Clark, Navarro tells Danvers sheâs been holding her own hatch against the ghosts only to realize thereâs been another option all along: to let them in.
Eventually, light will find its way back into the darkest places and, sometimes, the darkest people. Evangelineâs mother knew that, too. Thatâs why she named her eldest daughter, the one restless for justice, Siqiññaatchiaq â âthe return of the sun.â [/quote][/b]
[quote]The penultimate episode should've contained some of what we saw in the last.[/quote]
If you give away too much too soon don't you also run the risk of losing viewers???
Back when TWIN PEAKS aired, for example, Lynch was forced into revealing who killed LAURA PALMER, and after that people lost interest in watching the next season.
Someone at another board also mentions how ANNIE is like LAURA due to the way she stays CENTER STAGE instead of becoming another throw away forgotten PROP-like victim like the other girl was back in Season 1 who was killed by the lawn mower man.
And what do we know about that other girl? Almost nothing, whereas we explore how much the others in the towns of TWIN PEAKS & ENNIS cared about the deaths of Laura and Annie.
What's more, we were also presented with a copy of the HAND PRINT of the character who is missing parts of her 2 fingers back when it was found on the shoe of one of the Scientist that was left on the ice.
And Navarro also saw the hand of this character when we first meet her and she arrested the guy who had hit her.
So the character missing 2 fingers was also presented to us right away in Ep. 1. And then her handprint was probably also displayed to us in Ep. 2, before we finally see it again on the HATCH COVER in Ep. 6. Doesn't that also seem to leave us with little room left to complain when those kind of "BREAD CRUMBS" were left for us to follow???
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Jodie and the other actors were wonderful in this story. Imo, Ep. 5 should also result in some Emmy nominations!!!
Here's part of another review:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/review-true-detective-night-country-season-4-episode-6-part-6/ar-BB1iuCZ4
[quote]True Detective: Night Country is easily the best season of the anthology series since Season 1âand itâs not because of its first-season Easter eggs. In True Detective Season 4 Episode 6, the [b]Night Country finale is a stunning testament to building up a story layer by layer. [/b]This episode doesnât rehash the past but instead ties together every story in the HBO limited series thus far.
Once on opposite sides, Danvers is on board with Navarroâs retribution.
Danvers is no longer about holding it all together, but instead, she is about allowing justice to happen outside the court system. The way that the two come together and accept their roles to restore justice in Ennis, for Annie and the other indigenous women, is always the center of this episode.
itâs in securing a world Leah (Isabella LaBlanc), one where she doesnât force her daughter to hide who she is, captured in the final moments of Night Country Episode 6 as they head to a new home.
Peter Prior (Finn Bennett) has to clean up his dadâs (John Hawkes) blood.
Episode 6 capitalizes on everything weâve seen this season. The pollution, the racism, and the winding anti-indigenous murder that led to a cascading for Ennis and its people is undeniable. Even with its stark message that prioritizes Kali Reisâs performance as Navarro, True Detective: Night Country never stops leaning into the noir detective story. It pulls in social commentary that is all to the benefit of the narrativeâs conflict with every choice.
True Detective: Night Country Episode 6 is a stunning finale. With a little bit of horror, a lot of noir detective grime, and a dedication to showcasing a bitter reality, the series ends with an emotionally resonant bang.[/quote]
[i]I like that she was kept a mysterious figure.[/i]
I'd at least like to know what kind of a Professor Rose was and what kind of articles she wrote (which could have easily been presented to us in the same way as the backgrounds of the other Scientist were ...simply by having Navarro ask Pete to do a search of Professors).
So ... let's compare ROSE to Clark:
Clark was someone willing to kill Travis and others who got cancer from the pollution ...
and he was also responsible for the deaths of the still born infants, etc.
Therefore, doesn't her knowledge of how to puncture the lungs of an already dead man seem mild in comparison to this other group of MEN ... who were willing to kill as many people and animals in Ennis as necessary ... in order to ELEVATE their STATUS to being so called "SAVOIRS of the WORLD."
The EGO of these guys is ASTOUNDING. Who the hell do they think they are to decide who lives and who dies??? GODS???
They're no better than the NAZI's who performed experiments on people during WW2, or the other group who performed experiments on people here in the US:
https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm
Tuskegee Study - Timeline - CDC - OS
[quote]WebLearn about the history and impact of [b]the Tuskegee Study, a study by the USPHS to record the natural history of syphilis in 600 Black men from 1932 to 1973. The study was controversial and ethically unjustified [/quote][/b]
At least Rose had an ETHICAL CODE that could be JUSTIFIED.
And since Travis was the father of RUST, and Clark had been in ENNIS for at least 15 yrs, and the GHOST of Travis cared enough to show Rose how to find the bodies, I'd say chances are pretty good that Clark met Travis (who probably also passed on the "TIME is FLAT CIRCLE" line to both his son and to Clark).
Rose seemed like a nice person.
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Since Clark wanted to know how Heiss had survived his injuries, he's probably also the one who supplied Heiss with food and drugs (because Heiss was also wearing Annie's Pink Parka which he'd also have gotten from Clark).
I understand how you feel due to the way Season 1 of TD was a HUGE let down ... with NO explanation given for the reason why one of the detectives finds his girls playing with dolls that they'd arranged in the same positions as we see people arranged in the video where someone is murdered.
And then we have the KILLER revealed at the end of the story as being someone we've hardly ever seen before (other than his briefly riding by on the lawnmower in the background).
Hopefully this season won't pull the same kind of CHEAP TRICKS as the first season. And we'll also get better answers to any questions that we have.
And YES there are also LOTS of questions that they'd need to address in order to satisfy people who've been watching the show with very little TIME left remaining to do so.
Here's part of an interesting article where they suggest the show ends with a "To Be Continued" next season CLIFFHANGER:
https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a46752694/true-detective-season-4-finale-fan-theories/
Night Country Doesn't End Next Week
[quote]This theory is courtesy of yours truly. There's too much plot to wrap up in just one episode. We've got multiple dead bodies, no killer, no motive, and no clear way to find the answers. Will Navarro and Danvers magically find everything in the ice caves? We can't even tell if the ghosts are real or not! Hell, one of our own Esquire's editors thinks that a few of season 4's characters are trying to open a portal to a dimension in Hell. It's a long shot, but [b]the most interesting twist in my book would be a cliffhanger. Then, the screen reads, Night Country: Season 2... 2025. Everyone and their one-eyed polar bear is trying to figure this damn thing out. Why stop now?[/quote] [/b]
Can you imagine the kind of messages that would be posted if this happens???
Another thing to NOTE is how in the PHOTO of PETER as a child with his mother he's seen holding a STUFFED TOY POLAR BEAR with an EYE missing (like the other one that Danver's throws out the front door that belonged to her son).
Is it the same TOY??? Did Pete give it to her son? Since he use to babysit for Leah, one could see the reason why he might have given it to the young boy.
Or could the One eyed toy bear have a more sinister meaning of some kind???
Did you see the scene where she slips and falls on the ice and is immediately transported back to the military scene again? She probably also hit her head on the ice.
And she also gets into the fight with 3 guys (one that she arrested in the Crab factory) where she also ends up with her head bleeding. So each time that she has another head injury the visions seem to get worse or increase and become more frequent.