MovieChat Forums > Too Old to Die Young (2019) Discussion > One of the most shocking things...HUGE S...

One of the most shocking things...HUGE SPOILERS...HUGE SPOILERS...

posted 5 years ago by [deleted]
9 replies | jump to latest

I think one of the most effectively shocking things about this series was how Martin Jones was handled and met his demise.

Here we had a lethal sociopath and he goes out with a whimper and not a bang. But one thing that did not work for me was this - he KNEW someone was hunting him; or at the least, had to have known and still he was taken down in a simple way.

And how many thought he was going to pull a rabbit out of his hat and end up escaping or killing Jesus? I thought for sure when Jesus had the handcuffs taken off of him and was standing next to him with the machete that Martin was going to spring to life and nail him in the groin or something. Still, I get why in the end he did go the way he did after finding out his G/F was dead and after the second day of whipping.

[–] Fandango (534) 5 years ago

Yes, fairly jarring. I think the purpose was to highlight that the show didn't have any objectively good characters. Everyone was despicable in one way or another, so it was hard to truly feel bad for him. Even Janey wasn't exactly an innocent little princess. I'm not saying she deserved to die, of course.

It would have taken away from the realism to have him spring to life and kill Jesus, especially after his torture. He didn't exactly whimper, either. He took Jesus's beatings very stoically and never screamed.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I should have typed he went out like a metaphorical whimper.....

Back the shocking aspect, to clarify, what added to it for me was how easy he was snuck up on, captured and then dealt with.

And I think one of the reasons he accepted his torture and death as calmly as he did was because not only was he a true sociopath, but he also knew that he was at the end, so sort of why bother and put up the effort to resist and fight it.

I also think that entertainment media in America conditions Americans to expect escapes and the like and to me, that is what I enjoy about entertainment from outside of America or created by those not American - that they aren't afraid to go to those nasty places or give viewers a neatly tied up ending...

[–] Fandango (534) 5 years ago

Interesting take in your third paragraph regarding the lack of a satisfying resolution. Would you say the film portrays America in a bad light? There is not one single redeeming character in the entirety of the film. Even the peripheral characters appear morally bankrupt.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I wouldn't describe the death of Martin as an unsatisfying resolution - as time went on after I viewed the episode, it actually was more of a preferred demise that goes against how Americans are conditioned in the visual media. I think too often in programs developed for Americans and by Americans, Americans always expect the main protagonist to somehow survive at the end.

And I think Refn's dealing with the Martin character is supposed to contain deeper meanings in the hope of making the viewer think about how Martin chose to die (what I mean by "chose" is, how he chose to react to his self-perceived upcoming death - I think he internalized he was going to die).

I don't think the show put America in a bad light and I thought Jesus' monologue at the end was very telling in his descriptions of Mexicans and Americans.

I remember seeing this one foreign film where man meets woman, falls in love, loses woman, then searches the world for her and finally finds her and in his joy in finding her, as he is crossing the street to her he gets hit by a vehicle. It would be a rare time for an American to make a movie like this. Americans just have to have that happy, neat pat ending.

[–] MetalWorks (9) 5 years ago

I like to think that audiences by now can accept that there are no true happy endings
That's what I hope anyway

In this case, I think TOTDY ending is more on the allegorical or metaphorical side of things, even in its own open ended nature
Not so much in the case of Martin, I think he is one of the more human or real characters of the film
So you got metaphorical moments with terrenal moments mixed toghether

[–] emo_ville2002 (381) 5 years ago

I don't get why you think this is an "American" thing. You've seen a lot of American movies where this is the case, and you saw a "foreign film" where it wasn't the case, so.... ?
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I agree with everything else you've said here; it's thoughtful. I'm genuinely puzzled why, however, you've chosen to frame this sort of narrative -- which one could frame, alternatively, as merely "atypical" or "dark" or "realist", etc -- in terms of American vs. non-American (and, why you chose to operate with such a broad category as non-American without breaking that down).

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Growing up in the US and as mainly a consumer of US media, I think it is more common for the US entertainment industry to create programs that have more "happy endings" than other creators.

In other words, I think it is more common in the US for the "hero" to save the day or wiggle out of the direst of circumstances. I just believe after viewing so many American programs/movies, American shows tend to not push the envelope that other countries are willing to do (and I have noticed this even more since subscribing to Netflix and Amazon Prime the last year and being exposed to even more programs produced out of the US).

For example, take the American version of the movie The Vanishing - (this is a remake of 1988 Netherlands movie where a girlfriend is abducted and years later the abductor tells the boyfriend he must allow being rendered unconscious to learn what happened to the girlfriend and he then buries the boyfriend in a coffin) - in this version the American is able to escape and kill the villain, but in the foreign version it ends with the boyfriend realizing he's been buried before).

Then, last night I watched this other foreign film called Amnesty and the ending was a complete surprise and I doubt many American filmmakers would have ended the film the same way.

A long time ago an observer of the electronic media suggested that American visual media is more about the story while other creators tell stories about people. I think in a way that is very true.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that ALL American stuff is this way, only that much of it is and that too often American creators avoid going to places those outside of America will go to.

Love the back and forth.....

[–] emo_ville2002 (381) 5 years ago

OK, but I still don't get why one couldn't suspect that most films of most countries have the (to simplify) heroic/upbeat ending. How are most films in India? In China? In Australia? A couple ART movies from EUROPE with a different narrative doesn't set up a conclusion on America style vs. Rest-of-world style. What if it's art films vs popular films? Or what if weirdo (just kidding) Europeans are the exception?

The Italian film The Great Silence, a popular Western, is a really jarring movie because all the good guys die in the end. It is sort of a cult classic, stands out among the bunch, and is something you might get recommended to watch. But if you watched it and concluded Italian Westerns don't have the hero winning in the end, it would be wrong.

I'm on the same page with you in the general idea that American movies can have their dominant tendencies. And maybe these tendencies have even spread to other national film making styles. However, I think there is something in common between story narratives in cultures around the world, and it's highly *unlikely* that the hero/upbeat narrative is special, and maybe even not even more dominant than in other countries' stories.

[–] JimmyStrudel (600) 5 years ago

Knowing how Martin meets his demise is one of the biggest reasons I won’t be giving this a second watch any time soon. It’s so jarring and hopeless. Sure he was a murderous sociopath but I was rooting for him.