***SPOILERS***
The two films "Elle" and "The Piano Teacher" both cover similar ground, and there is some overlap with Michèle and Erika in their personalities. I did find Erika to be far more sympathetic. Her suffering wasn't something she could truly express or vocalize except in her craft, she often found herself getting into even messier situations because of her approach to sex. I don't really think Erika knew how to express love without unneeded suffering or sexuality without extreme pain. Erika was quite cruel at times (pocketful of glass, anyone?), but she seemed so emotionally unstable that I understand why she often reacted to certain things with extreme behavior. I found Michèle to be rather calm and calculating in most situations. She was clearly suffering with what happened in her childhood and the rape was obviously traumatic but she knew all of this and even seemed to indulge in it at times. Erika never really seemed aware or fully in control of her emotions. Think of two big movements in the film. The knife in the heart from Erika and Michèle's trap for Patrick. One was a sudden emotional outburst, a perfect visual metaphor of one person's immense suffering, the other was an organized revenge that will haunt Michèle's son for the rest of his life. One critic described Michèle as "post-feminist." I think Erika has immense self-loathing and an extremely warped view on sexuality, I guess she could be described as "pre-feminist."
Films like "I Spit on Your Grave" or really any other standard revenge flick (Kill Bill, Punisher, Max Payne, all those movies starring Liam Neeson, etc.) are clearly in it for the blood lust. "You hurt me, now I hurt you." "Elle" is a bit more complicated since it doesn't exactly hunger for violence, nor does it exactly paint Michèle as turning victim to perpetrator, but rather that she seems to constantly occupy both roles at any given movement.
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Zombie55
7 years ago
2 ngrome - thanks for the reply.
By the way, how exactly, as well as in the context of this film, does a "post feminist" differ from "pre-feminist" as well as a "feminist" in general?
The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!
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ngrome
7 years ago
Well, the basic idea of feminism or being a feminist is fighting for the equality of women (that includes economic, social, ending rape culture, etc.). Michèle is "post-feminist" in the sense that she fought for equality, though it was basically only for herself. Once she gets her success and revenge she clearly has no intention of helping other women like a serious feminist would. Her feminism is selfish feminism, it's only for her and once she achieves her goal she becomes "post-feminist."
"Pre-feminist" is something I came up with on the spot, I don't really know if it's the best fit for Erika but I think it still works. Erika is someone who really isn't concerned with equality (at least in the way a feminist would be). She hurts herself and others because she really doesn't know what she's doing. She's lived through extreme abuse and doesn't know how to resolve her emotional disturbances. She holds traditional sexist views and has a warped idea of what is healthy for sexuality, but it's not like she entirely understands this or is able to fight it.
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Zombie55
7 years ago
Can people be generally feminist only officially like if they are working for some kind of feminist organizations or unofficially as well, and if they are only feminist in their beliefs and don't work for any as such organizations, how exactly CAN they help anyone besides themselves?
The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!
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Zombie55
7 years ago
I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but there are many otherwise ordinary people that do NOT wish harm on anyone and are for equal rights who in generally don't speak too highly of feminism at all, who is (morally) right in this case?
A lot of people say feminism is bad and that it hates all men or that it often goes over the top and ignores other issues and that it isn't totally surrounded by justice, logic and equal rights-oriented views as some claim.
I see in America and other Western parts of the world feminism is very popular and worshipped, but in certain parts of the world, including civilized ones, many people just ignore it and don't give it too much importance.
Again, who is RIGHT?
And if feminism isn't all that bad but does make some or other mistakes or misjudgments in views, is it mostly due to the fact that no human being is ever perfect?
The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!
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ngrome
7 years ago
Feminism is a complicated social topic. Various academic disagree on what is the best way to fight for equality or when something is truly misogynistic or sexist. There really isn't a perfect feminism because there are so many types, fields, and theories. It's also important to mention that feminists aren't perfect either, like any other group and humanity in general.
I'd say no one is ultimately right in their approach to feminism since there is no perfect type of feminism that addresses all issues and has all the solutions. It's an ongoing thing, made up of various groups and ideas.
I would say that at its core feminism is always about equality for women, so basically anyone that believes in that concept is a feminist. Maybe they don't agree with radical feminism or certain aspects of feminist theory but they are still essentially under that umbrella of feminism. It's also a social topic that has now become so visible and politically charged that a certain narrow vision has taken place with regards to the radical feminists who are now seen as the sole representatives of the group, though that's rather unfair.
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tallard
7 years ago
In a year, let us assess how many women in the USA have lost access to healthcare, how many women have lost access to contraceptive pills, how many women have lost access to morning after and/or plan B, how many women have lost access to abortion.
Then let us ask ourselves if being forced into pregnancy is harmless to females.
***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**
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ngrome
7 years ago
Being a feminist is ultimately a personal choice, but I imagine being a "good feminist" would include ensuring equality for all women. Making a choice to focus on achieving equality for just yourself would ultimately just harm other women, so you're really not technically fighting for women's equality.
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tallard
7 years ago
Close.
I'd nuance by saying saying that original feminism (1st and 2nd waves) was to COLLECTIVELY break the stranglehold of patriarchy.
Post-modern (third wave) one could say was invented by Hugh Heffnor. Individual females are "empowered" by being playing submissive to men. Individual females are "empowered" by being raped (something Janet Mock loves to sell). Individual females can earn more in life by performing sexist stereotypes.
What is funny in how the third wave of feminism has been totally coopted by patriarchy, is if we compared that say to unionisation movement. Where workers collectively battled for better work conditions. Now imagine a world where corporate heads were so successful in their pushback against unionism that the "collective" part was taken away, and all the workers were just pushing for their own piece of the pie... but continued to call that "unionism".
That would be apparent to most sentient people... as treason
However that feminism has been taken over by patriarchy, and that so many females have bought in to this corporate individualism and dare to call themselves feminists, is pretty damned sad.
But then again, unionism isn't doing too good either...
***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**
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