MovieChat Forums > Ricki and the Flash (2015) Discussion > Critics afraid to pan Meryl Streep!

Critics afraid to pan Meryl Streep!


Mara Renstein is one of those politically correct critics who is afraid to pan Meryl Streep. Here is an actual quotation (quite embarrassing): "Criticizing a Meryl Streep performance is kind of like disparaging a Pablo Picasso painting."

Really? You are actually going to put Meryl Streep in the same sentence with the greatest painter of the 20th century? News flash to Mara Renstein: Meryl Streep is not a great artist. In fact, she has never done anything creative in her entire life other than look pretty while reading lines that other people wrote for her.

Furthermore, I think that there are a lot of actors who are better than Meryl Streep. For example, take Sean Penn, Gary Oldman and Daniel Day-Lewis. Unlike Streep, all three of these actors are actually able to change their appearance from role to role. In contrast, Meryl Streep just always looks like Meryl Streep. Did I mention the fact that Gary Oldman and Sean Penn (not sure about Daniel Day-Lewis) have successfully written and directed movies? Now there is something that is way over Meryl Streep's head.

By the way, in case you accuse me of being an old sexist pig who hates older actresses, I should point out that I am a young woman myself.

Here is the ridiculous review right here:

Read more: http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/ricki-and-the-flash-review-meryl-streep-wont-get-an-oscar-for-this--201558#ixzz3i3jMMxYy
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Still, IMDb message board users looking dumber and dumber and DUMBER by the day. I can't wait to see something even MORE retarded than this next time I go somewhere random, because they ALWAYS get more retarded.

Whats next? Someone gonna write a 3-page hate rant about Gene Hackman?

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Stupid is as stupid does.

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she has never done anything creative in her entire life other than look pretty while reading lines that other people wrote for her.

 That is an apt description of all actors and the whole profession.

Unlike Streep, all three of these actors are actually able to change their appearance from role to role. In contrast, Meryl Streep just always looks like Meryl Streep.

Like all actors, Streep is physically recognisable. Perhaps you mean she always plays herself.

The French Lieutenants Woman: a liberated woman struggling with the sexual repression of Victorian England
Silkwood: a working class worker come activist
Sophies Choice: a Holocaust survivor
Evil Angels: a middle class Australian mother accused of murdering her baby
The Iron Lady: a right-wing British Prime Minister
The Devil Wears Prada" a driven and ruthless executive

The range of Streeps performances (and her ability to give each of these varied roles individuality, especially where she plays real people) gives the lie to your claim.




In his cloak of words strode the ringmaster

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Excellent examples. I would add 'Out of Africa' to the list where she plays a well known Scandinavian writer Isaac Dinesen, 'Julie and Julia' where she plays a famous French chef, 'Doubt' where she plays a nun, Kramer vs Kramer where she plays a woman who left her family to pursue a career, 'One true thing' in which she plays a cancer patient, several humorous roles including 'Mama Mia' where she sings and dances. There are many more titles that I can't remember.

Her range as an artist is amazing. It looks like the OP has not seen more than two of Ms.Streep's movies.

BTW you listed 'Evil Angels'. This was released in the USA as 'A cry in the dark'.

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Mara Renstein actually criticizes Streep's performance, yet you still have a problem with her? Wow. Also, plenty of critics have criticized Streep. What the hell is there to "fear?" Does Streep have a violent side?

Most people in the acting profession consider Streep an excellent actress, if not absolutely outstanding. The idea that somehow she cannot be put in the same league as Picasso, who by the way has also been criticized, is simply ludicrous given the enormous accolades Streep has received. And Renstein is simply making an analogy. Renstein probably agrees more with you about Streep than most people, yet you still trash her.

You seem to not really understand acting. One need not physically transform themselves in order to be a great actor. In fact, "physical" transformations are often largely the work of a team of make-up artists, hairdressers, prosthetic creators (whatever they're called), not the actor. Regardless, the idea the Streep has never been physically transformed into another character is totally blind. Iron Lady comes to mind, as does the witch in Into the Woods. More importantly, Streep is particularly adept at transforming her personality to fit the characters she plays which actually IS acting. And by the way, actors like Sean Penn, who I love, rarely have physical transformations. You almost always know it is Penn physically. And when does writing and directing movies translate into being a good actor? Because they're additional creative talents? Streep apparently is a good cook, and maybe she knows how to needlepoint. Can you say THAT about Penn and Oldman?

And by the way, you can be sexist even if you're a woman. And you can certainly be ageist if you're young. You do seem to have a major bug up your butt about Streep, and the root of that is anyone's guess. You certainly have not adequately justified your criticism of her. Or Renstein for that matter.


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The idea that somehow she cannot be put in the same league as Picasso, who by the way has also been criticized, is simply ludicrous given the enormous accolades Streep has received.


Oh, dear--another ignoramus who knows nothing about art talking about it.

Picasso was rarely criticized. He was the DARLING of the art world during the 20th century, practically untouchable in terms of criticism. That's why, genius, that the critic said that criticizing Meryl Streep's performance is like criticizing a Picasso painting. Just as no one would ever dare criticize a Picasso painting (because he was considered such a genius that his work was above criticism) no one should ever dare criticize Streep.

So the critic was not actually putting Streep in the same league as Picasso in terms of ability, but comparing her "darling" status in acting to Picasso's "darling" status in the art world. In other words, she was expressing her frustration over the fact that she wanted to criticize Streep but knew she'd experience some major backlash if she did, since there's an unspoken rule that you can't criticize her whatsoever unless you want to be seen as some kind of knuckle-dragging buffoon.

Regardless, the idea the Streep has never been physically transformed into another character is totally blind. Iron Lady comes to mind, as does the witch in Into the Woods. More importantly, Streep is particularly adept at transforming her personality to fit the characters she plays which actually IS acting. And by the way, actors like Sean Penn, who I love, rarely have physical transformations. You almost always know it is Penn physically. And when does writing and directing movies translate into being a good actor? Because they're additional creative talents? Streep apparently is a good cook, and maybe she knows how to needlepoint. Can you say THAT about Penn and Oldman?


Okay, okay, WE BELIEVE YOU! Okay, Meryl Streep is the most amazing, most talented, most flawless actress who ever lived! Just stop; you're getting spittle over everyone. Geez... *wipes face with napkin* 


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I won't stoop to your level and start with the name-calling. That's a tactic used by people who cannot form a legitimate argument. From your latest post you clearly have proven that even if you hadn't resorted to name-calling.

Both Picasso and Streep (whether you like it or not) have actually been considered geniuses (thus the accolades for both), and because of this, some critics have a hard time criticizing them. Nonetheless, both HAVE been criticized, (including Picasso, which you admit to) so I really truly don't know what your gripe is with my comment. Treysavag seems to be criticizing the reviewer for noting this "Darling status" and making a comparison to Picasso's "Darling status" and yet trashes the reviewer for doing such. Why Treysavag actually criticizes the reviewer for something they both appear to agree on is beyond me. I think s/he just gets off on criticizing.

You seem to be defending Treysavag, and I wonder if you and s/he are actually the same person. Regardless, you seem to have an issue with me taking to task some of Treysavag's most unfounded arguments (and they are completely unfounded) but instead of trying to debate, you resort to putting words in my mouth. That's typical, again, of someone who cannot form a legitimate argument. Given your inability to engage in intelligent discussion, I will block you. Time is too important to waste and folks like you and I've already wasted enough time on you with this post.




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I won't stoop to your level and start with the name-calling.


Stoop to your level? You yourself were insulting to the OP with your arrogant, condescending, patronizing response. All of your other "pals" in this thread have called this person everything from "crazy" to "ignorant" and "retarded." It's why I responded the way I did. You realized that you all crossed the line into cyberbullying, right? It's one thing if a few posters take potshots at an OP, but practically all of you?

Are you guys mental or something? All of this should've ended days ago when another poster correctly pointed out that the OP completely misinterpreted the review. But apparently, the OP's negative feelings towards Streep was so upsetting to that all of you had to continue frothing at the mouth to defend her, even going so far as to drag down other perfectly good actors (Sean Penn, for example) in the process?

You seem to be defending Treysavag, and I wonder if you and s/he are actually the same person.


Yes, I am the OP's sock puppet. You got me. Bravo, Watson!  Because only a "troll/sock puppet" would leap to the OP's defense, right?

Whoops. Looks like you just violated your own rule not to stoop to "my" level.

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I thought I blocked you? Must not have taken.

You resorted to name-calling, not me. I don't take responsibility for others' behavior. You seem to rationalize your own bad behavior - "because others did it, it's OK I did it." OK. Whatever. You have to live with your own demons. For the record, the other name-calling here is equally as childish, regardless of the position of the poster.

Pointing out the flaws in someone's argument is not condescending, nor is it bullying. People who cannot handle this shouldn't publicly make indefensible statements. Did you think that maybe so many people came out against tyesavag's post because his or her post was completely flawed? I mean, completely. If tyesavag came out and acknowledged misinterpreting the review, I apologize to him or her, but I don't see any evidence of such. If so many people pointed out the mistaken interpretation, you would think s/he would say "Whoops - my bad. Sorry folks." But - eh - I don't see it.

Who dragged down Sean Penn? I know I mentioned Sean Penn as an actor I liked, BECAUSE Tyesavag brought him up in comparison to Streep in the original post. According to the OP, good actors physically transform themselves, and then listed Penn as a great actor (and of course Streep as bad partly because she doesn't physically transform). I countered with 1) Sean Penn usually doesn't as well 2) physical transformation is often the work of other people like make-up artists 3) good acting does not require physical transformation and 4) Streep does actually have physical transformations in some roles. Tyesavag also went on to disparage Streep as not being creative because she hasn't written or directed movies. I countered with Streep's other known and possible creative talents, and how this means Penn and some other actor are not creative because they didn't have these talents. It's all just very stupid. Being a talented, creative actor has nothing to do with one's other creative talents. Period.

Also, I did not say s/he was sexist. Go back and look. Nor did anyone else from what I can tell. Tyesavag was the one who actually brought up sexism in the initial post and pretty strongly implied how it wasn't possible to be sexist because s/he was female. This is actually DEAD WRONG. Plenty of females hold sexist attitudes towards females.

You may have mentioned this elsewhere, or just deleted this part of your reply realizing the flaw, but "rarely criticized" IS criticized. You ADMITTED Picasso was criticized by saying he was "rarely criticized." There's no other way to interpret that. If you had said he was "NEVER criticized" then you would be correct. But since you admitted he actually WAS criticized, then I am correct. And you called me an ignoramus here, I might add, when I said that Picasso was criticized. He was. Issue settled. I think an apology is in order.

Also, posts like this can go on for years when there are enough responses. You reply and then realize only later someone said something similar (days, weeks, or even years earlier). I might add, I think I might have been the first one to point out there was a gross misinterpretation of the review (so much so I was baffled - the reviewer AGREES with you - why are you trashing her?!). But even you challenged me on this. So much so I thought you were also tyesavag. I still have my doubts, by the way. As early as yesterday Tyesavag was doubling down on how actors are not artists. I've responded to this, as have others. While this is a matter of opinion, you'd be hard-pressed to find an actor, or really anyone involved with actors, who doesn't consider actors artists. So Tyesavag is also keeping this thread going... Please don't blame the rest of us. LOL.

Again, you seem to be defending Tyesavag with such defensiveness, I actually believed you were the same person. It certainly feels that way. If you're not you're not. At least Tyesavag hasn't resorted to calling me names. OK - I am blocking you now. It'd better take this time.

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I find it interesting that all the actors you listed as better than Meryl Streep are men. Don't you like female actors at all?

Likes and dislikes are different for different people but your post comes across as ignorant and biased. Meryl Streep has so many great performances that she should have won twice as many Oscars as she did. I am not saying that she is great every time, but what you wrote is insulting to one of the greatest movie actresses who has played so many different characters. I suspect that you have not seen many of her movies. You are still entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to say that you sound ignorant.

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I am guessing that you do not know what an ad hominem attack is (see my second post above). Rather than address the actual points that I brought up in my post, you instead resort to labeling me as “ignorant.” This is an example of poor rhetoric on your part. You then resort to the typical p.c. strategy of sexism accusations (despite the fact that I am a woman!). Anyone who dares to point out that Meryl Streep is less than wonderful is invariably accused of sexism.

Could you explain in more detail why I am “ignorant”? I would love to engage with you in an actual debate. However, I am not interested in addressing ad hominem attacks.
By the way, here is an article that might benefit you: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem.

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You clearly have demonstrated your lack of knowledge (AKA ignorance) about political correctness, sexism, Streep, and acting in general. Many posters have given you AMPLE evidence of such, but you appear not to accept it. Instead, you accuse people of ad hominem attacks, stupidity (kind of hypocritical, even if you just imply it), and political correctness. You also gloat about your Ph.D. in rocks, as if somehow this makes you not only smarter than Streep, but more able to assess Streep's acting ability .

I'm guessing you don't know what ignorant means. Here is one definition: "lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular." Here's a link: https://www.google.com/#q=definition+of+ignorant I'm trying not to be "politically correct" here, so I apologize if this offends you.




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I think the quote might have been a subtle dig at Streep within the requirements of not openly attacking the princess.

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I think the quote might have been a subtle dig at Streep within the requirements of not openly attacking the princess.


That's exactly what the critic was saying. She was saying, "I want to criticize Streep, but I can't, so I'm going to be as diplomatic as possible when I critique her performance."

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>>> Really? You are going to put Meryl Streep in the same sentence with the greatest painter of the 20th century?

I'm afraid that acting is also considered to be one of the "arts", and it is also believed that some degree of creative talent is among the elements that goes into strong acting. And Meryl Streep is widely considered to be one of the greatest actresses of her time (and her "time" is over 30 years now). So whether or not one thinks acting should be elevated to as high an "artistic" level as painting is, the statement "Meryl Streep is to acting, what Picasso was to painting" is not as far out-of-line as you think.

>>> By the way, In case you accuse me of being an old sexist pig who hates older actresses, I should point out that I am a young woman myself.

I don't know if you are a young woman or an old man. You could be either one. People can say anything they want to about themselves on a message board, and nobody will know if they are being honest. It's easy enough to lie about yourself on a message board. In fact it's not that uncommon. So you might be a young woman. Or you might be an old sexist male.

I don't know either way. Nor do I care. Young woman are also capable of being "sexist pigs" in regards to other women. In fact, some of the most vile, sexist, anti-women comments I have personally heard, were uttered by women. The one thing that does seem clear is that you have some kind of deep-seeded distain of Meryl Streep.

>>> I think there are a lot of actors who are better then Meryl Streep; For example, take Sean Penn, Gary Oldman, and Daniel Day Lewis.

I notice that you don't mention any women. Btw, as for an actor changing their appearance, sometimes some degree of credit for that should go to the make-up artists. Also, there is a long list of notable actors who tended to look the same throughout their various movies.

Having said all this, I will admit that while Meryl Streep is an excellent actress, and has given some terrific performances, I didn't think she was very good in this movie (aside from her singing). Nor did I like the movie.

Next week I shall disparage a Pablo Picasso painting.



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I am disturbed to see more ad hominem attacks here (see my second and third posts). In your case, you haul out the typical p.c. strategy of making sexism allegations against me (despite the fact that I am a woman!) rather than engaging in an actual debate. Anyone who dares to point out that Meryl Streep is less than wonderful is invariably accused of sexism.

Actors are not artists. A person who simply read lines that other people write cannot be classified as a genius. In the same way, I would not call an opera singer a genius. That is simply the wrong word. A composer can be a genius. An artist like Picasso can be a genius. A writer can be a genius. An actor, however, is simply an interpreter. Interestingly, people have a subconscious tendency to attribute lines written by the screenwriter to the actor. For that reason, you can probably name ten times more actors than you can screenwriters.

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I didn't say your attacks were coming from sexism. What I said is that the fact that you MIGHT be a woman doesn't necessarily exclude you from being sexist against women. You might be a woman. Or you might be a man. And your personal destain for Meryl Streep might be coming from sexism (regardless if you are a man or woman), or it might be for other reasons.

And it is clear that you have some personal deep-seeded destain for Meryl Streep. The evidence for that is clearly in your posts. For instance, you weren't satisfied with just confining yourself to the idea that it's ridiculous to equate an actress to a brilliant painter like Picasso.

No, you couldn't resist the urge to spit venom at Meryl Streep with personal attacks about things that "go way over her head". Which includes your college degree, (assuming you are being honest about that) which you said goes "way over her head". So your dislike of Meryl Streep is so great that you have the need to flatter yourself that you've accomplished something that Meryl Streep lacks the capacity to do. This is not about the idea that an actor should not be mention in the same breath as a great painter. That is just your cover. This is about whatever personal issues you have with Meryl Streep. Or you are just trolling.

>>> rather then engaging in an actual debate.

I responded to your points. So stop playing the whining victim.

>>> Actors are not artists. A person who simply reads lines that other people write cannot be classified as a genius.

You have a seriously flawed and extremely simplistic understanding of acting. Strong acting involves much more then just simply reading lines. It involves all kinds of nuance, and substance, choices, and interpretation, and understanding how to play something, and often a good bit of improvising.

Strong acting can produce emotional reactions just as much as a great painting can.



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I am enjoying your posts kenneth. I also think you're saying things way better than I am!

I think you're correct in describing tyesavag's deep-seated hatred of Streep. Every single post she has made on imbd - I mean every single one - is about Streep. Even the posts about Streep's children are actually about Streep. There was an article written about Streep a few years back where one neighbor (and honestly, in the article they only interview ONE neighbor) describes her as a bitch. I'm not saying tyesavag is this neighbor, but it really seems to fit. If not, Streep appears to have two people with vendettas against her: http://www.celebitchy.com/215587/meryl_streep_is_a_mega-bitch_to_her_connecticut_neighbors_says_one_neighbor/

Actually, to consider your last point, treysavag must think painting real objects is also not art, whether the painter is trying to exactly replicate the object or come at it from a more abstract approach. After all, the painter didn't actually create the object - the painter is simply interpreting the object. This is not art. It's interpretation. Interpretation of what someone else came up with is not art.

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I can't follow what you are saying here. Since when am I Meryl Streep's neighbor?

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Why do you keep talking about sexism? Again, this is an ad hominem attack (as are accusations of "trolling," by the way). As long as you can accuse me of being sexist (or homophobic or racist or whatever), you assume that this in some way invalidates my arguments. That is a typical p.c. strategy that I see all the time. It is not good rhetoric.

Here is your argument. Because acting can produce strong emotional reactions, you say that it must therefore be a great art form on the same level as writing, painting or musical composition. I disagree. For instance, the work of a supermodel might also evoke strong emotions. At the same time, I would not refer to Cindy Crawford as "a genius." Again, that is the wrong word.

Genius is a phenomenon that applies to an individual who creates something out of nothing. A genius does not need screenwriters, ghostwriters, producers or anyone else to prop him up. Oh no, I just said "he" instead of "he and/or she." I must be a homophobic, sexist pig!



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While agree with some of your words on this thread, I disagree with this post completely.
A good actor can elevate a weak script, and a bad actor can sink a good script. Good writing needs good acting and good directing, otherwise it is worth nothing.

That being said, it seems to me that critics really are afraid of panning Streep's performance, despite the fact that even from the trailer it is obvious that she is not a good fit for this role.




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>>> Why do you keep talking about sexism?

You brought up the subject of sexism by claiming you were a woman, so you couldn't possibly be a sexist pig. I just said that a woman can be sexist against women, too.

And what I said on that matter (twice) was clear enough, and yet you keep intentionally ignoring it, so I have to wonder if you are trolling; regardless of how enraged that idea makes you.

The fact that you keep intentionally ignoring it, brings into question your honesty, which also casts doubt on the idea that you are a woman.

>>> Genius is a phenomenon that applies to an individual who creates something out of nothing.

Painters don't tend to do that. There are a lot of famous painters who often weren't "creating something out of nothing".

And again, your understanding of acting is seriously flawed and extremely simplistic. In fact, you really have no idea what you are talking about. But you do seem to have a hate for Meryl Streep. What's that all about????


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You don't know what p.c. is. Another poster eloquently pointed this out to you earlier. Whenever you disagree with something someone says you cannot just say they're being "p.c." LOL. And for the record, I didn't see you being accused of being sexist, it was just suggested as a possibility when YOU actually brought it (and then dismissed it because you are, apparently, female).

You also have absolutely no understanding of "isms." Women can be sexist towards other women.

Another "growing edge" for you seems to be your understanding of art. Actors are indeed artists, as are opera singers. Both artists' interpretations are but one aspect of the creative process. You'd be hard-pressed to find any actor or opera singer who didn't consider themselves an artist. But I suppose your Ph.D. in Geology makes you an expert here.

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Someone with some common sense!

I actually thought Streep was excellent in Into the Woods, and it's the only time I actually liked her signing (don't even get me started on Mamma Mia...) but I have yet to see Rikki.

I'm waiting with baited breath for your Picasso critique. Just be warned that Tyesavag and Atomic might crap their pants when you do so.

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You don't sound old, you sound young. :P I don't like her either, but she has had some good performances in her earlier roles. I'm just annoyed that you can't think of any ACTRESSES who are better than Streep.

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