MovieChat Forums > Night Moves (2014) Discussion > Pregnant Doe!! What everyone seems to ha...

Pregnant Doe!! What everyone seems to have missed...!



SPOILER SPOILER!
The kick in the gut to this film is what the director leaves unsaid. The 'pregnent doe' scene is the hint.
The whisper is the scene when Josh brings back pizza to the camp and we are led to believe Dena and Harmon are having sex in the camper.
After the dam, tell-tale heart paranoia infects Josh.
We are not shown Harmon's demeanor and we are only shown Dena when Josh confronts.
The next clue is Josh increduously wondering aloud to Harmon on the phone why she is calling Harmon and not Josh.
Dena is suffering from nerves and develops a rash evident when Josh first confronts her. She seems to be upset when she realizes why he is 'actually' there - wondering if she was going to narc to the authorities. She is obviously offended on more than one level.
Then Dena calls Anne and confides in her - troubling Anne.
Now his paranoia is consuming and he can't see what is obvious:
Dena is pregnant.
She has repeatedly called Harmon because he is the father...
She confides in Anne because she needs a female friend for support...
She is upset with Josh because he is not concerned for her welfare...
She cannot sit in the sauna as one of her clients suggests because of her pregnancy...
Josh, uncaring for the unborn fawn early in the film, destroys more than just one life when he kills Dena.

This was an excellent film, the director constantly edges you with possibilities: the nosy camper, the blown tire, the muddy shoes, the camera at the fertilizer store, always wondering when/how/why were these 'eco-terrorists' going to get caught... when the story is really about unintended consequences... and the final scene is despite three deaths - nothing has changed... people still on their cell-phones.. even he had one but only gave up his when it was too late for redemption.

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That does make sense and explains a lot of things.

If Dena was calling Harmon because she was pregnant, and Harmon didn't explain this to Josh, only telling him that Dena was cracking, then Harmon was possibly setting Josh up to get rid of Dena, so he wouldn't have to deal with Dena and the pregnancy himself.

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Right. Harmon never told Josh what Dena was freaking out about - just that she was freaking out. I think it's Josh actually that brings up the camper.
a BETTER title for the film would have been Left Unsaid!

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That's an interesting theory. I knew there was something significant about that doe scene... I will have to watch it again and catch those interactions.

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hmm, I was under the impression that only a few days to a week had gone by between the dam explosion and Harmon telling Josh about Dena freaking out. I thought she started freaking out right after they found the dead guy which was just a few days after the incident. I don't think Dena would have known she was pregnant that quickly (but I'm a guy so maybe I'm wrong here).

I agree Dena and Harmon had sex, but I think Dena called Harmon and was freaking out about the death because:

1. she was very young and hadn't been in this situation before;
2. she thought she had connected w/Harmon via sex;
3. she looked at Harmon as sort of mentor/leader/deity/whatever.

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I thought the pregnant doe scene was significant in another way. When Josh and Dena came across the dead animal they could've helped it's young. But instead they left it to die inside the mother's womb. That shows the hypocrisy of all those environmentalists. They are willing to make all those big public statements - whether it's blowing up a dam or breaking into laboratories to free some test monkeys - but when it comes to small acts of compassion or mercy they just don't care. It's like if no one will know about it, it's not worth while. And what some environmentalist filmmaker said at the beginning of the movie was that the little acts alone were enough to make a difference. I think Josh and Dena didn't do what they did to change the world or from the goodness of their heart but rather because they were social outcasts and they followed this ideology to fit in or to feel alive or for some other egoistical reason.

Of course, the Dena pregnancy thing makes some sense too :)

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That shows the hypocrisy of all those environmentalists. They are willing to make all those big public statements - whether it's blowing up a dam or breaking into laboratories to free some test monkeys - but when it comes to small acts of compassion or mercy they just don't care. It's like if no one will know about it, it's not worth while


To further stretch that point, after that night, the "leader" or one of them wasn't impressed and called it just theater.

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Let's back it up here. To interfere with nature is to set it back. You have to let nature take its course. You don't cut out a baby deer from a doe's womb because it will die anyways. You leave it as is. So many people think that interfering with nature is a positive. Nature is beautiful but it is also cruel. It's life.
A real environmentalist should just be concerned with preserving nature as it is. Not destroying it, not trying to propel it forward.

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Excellent point Number_One_Birdlawyer

Tough luck, chinless

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I realize the post I'm replying to is two years old, but I wanted to make the point -- then why are there so many wildlife rescue organizations and missions to save endangered animals that OUR fucked-up ways of life have endangered?

I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ALWAYS "leave it as it is," and I'm clearly not alone in that when we have Sanctuaries and rescue charities that help get wild animals fixed after injuries and back into the wild to live out their lives.

"preserving nature as it is" doesn't take into account the damage WE do to members of the natural world, which we have an onus to put right even in the case of one individual animal.

That doe was hit by a car, a man-made incident, not a natural happenstance to the deer. I felt that he should have cut the baby out and taken it to a rehab place, as they exist for this kind of event.

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A doe killed by a passing car is not nature.

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How the hell many people are going to know how to deliver a baby deer? And what would be its chances of survival even if they did do it?

Sig under construction

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When Josh and Dena came across the dead animal they could've helped it's young.

How? Like playing midwife and then nursing the deer ?

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I don't believe dena was pregnant. only a few days to a week had passed since incident. she was too busy stressing out about the dead guy at the dam. she may have been confiding to her friend anne, but i think she only mentioned how stressed she was but not why.

there significance of the dead doe is too show how these young wanna-be environmentalists are really just dumb idiots who think they will change people. these kids in film really have no heart. that is shown by not giving a damn about the baby deer they could have saved.

doe scene just meant to show that these kids, like many others out there, are just a lost cause.

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And if you cut a premature oxygen-starved baby deer out of the womb, what do you do with it then?

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This poem inspired the director to create that scene

Traveling Through The Dark

By William E. Stafford

Traveling through the dark I found a deer
dead on the edge of the Wilson River road.
It is usually best to roll them into the canyon:
that road is narrow; to swerve might make more dead.

By glow of the tail-light I stumbled back of the car
and stood by the heap, a doe, a recent killing;
she had stiffened already, almost cold.
I dragged her off; she was large in the belly.

My fingers touching her side brought me the reason—
her side was warm; her fawn lay there waiting,
alive, still, never to be born.
Beside that mountain road I hesitated.

The car aimed ahead its lowered parking lights;
under the hood purred the steady engine.
I stood in the glare of the warm exhaust turning red;
around our group I could hear the wilderness listen.

I thought hard for us all—my only swerving—,
then pushed her over the edge into the river.
The documentary film maker from the beginning of the film said there was no "big solution" to saving the planet, the solution was for people to focus on a lot of small plans which would enable people to work together on an unlimited number of small scale solutions and bring together people with shared concerns, which would pave the path to larger, more far-reaching solutions.

The pregnant doe was a small-scale problem the trio could have tackled, but they did not do so because the doe situation interfered with their plans to tackle the dam. The very pregnant doe, pregnant with the next generation of deer, pregnant with hope and the very future of her species' existence, was soundlessly pushed out of existence, hope destroyed, the seed of the future destroyed, evolution briefly interrupted.

The pregnant doe scene reinforced the documentarian's earlier comments about small scale solutions, and foreshadowed the failure of the trio's plans, whatever those plans were - at that point in the film, their plans were not yet revealed, but we knew they were embarking on a life-changing plan that for them was of greater import than saving an unborn fawn. A heart-stopping moment.

The dam was a massive large-scale problem, a type of large-scale problem obviously requiring a massive a number of people to tackle with a massive number of small solutions. The dam problem could not be "fixed" with a piece of legislation shutting it down nor with a bomb blowing it up.

Dena watched the documentary at the beginning of the film and she was the person who asked the director what the "big plan" was to save the planet, and was told by the director that small plans were the first step to take. Dena ignored that message, and failed to appreciate the meaning and the ethics and morality of the doe situation until she was informed a camper was missing and likely dead as a direct result of the trio bombing the dam.

When she learned the camper was missing as a result of their bombing, she, like the doe, became pregnant, with guilt, very pregnant with guilt, and wandered out of her normal routine, much like the doe wandering on the road, and was eventually struck dead, like the doe. She was soundlessly strangled and slid out of the viewers' sight, just as the doe was soundlessly slid out of the viewers' sight.

The pregnant doe situation was a no-win situation because the situation could not be fixed:, the fawn had a 50/50% chance of survival had they cut the fawn out of the doe because the fawn would be on his/her own (much like Dena and Josh were fawns on their own....) and because the road would still remain. The road would still remain, cutting the chances of survival of the fawn, and the deer species, in half. The wilderness was bounded by roads and highways on the perimeter, and the roads themselves were technically criss-crossing through what had once been wilderness.

The dam situation was a no-win situation because Dena said she wanted to eliminate the dam to restore salmon migration, which meant she wanted fish farmers to resume their own ecological destruction of the waters. So much for "sustainable" agriculture. The water and the forest and fish lose no matter what.

The dam situation was a no-win situation because environmental remediation, restoration and redevelopment projects require the support of entire peoples and communities and cities and regions, and wide-ranging support from local and state and tribal and federal partners, etc, which seemed non-existent in Dena's locality. The river-route they took to reach the dam was through an endless tract of irreversible forest destruction, indicating the destruction had been occurring for years and years unchecked. The organic farming cooperatives Dena and Josh were living in were just barely nominally committed to environmental causes - the farmers seemed like they were trying to live off-the-grid more out of a desire to give the govournment the middle finger to regulations and taxes as opposed to any environmental concern.Peter Sarsgaard's character seemed he was in it to give the govournment the middle finger for what the govournment put him through in the war zone (he was an ex-marine), and to cop a feel from Dena. It seemed that particular area seriously lacked the pro-environmental infrastructural network needed to generate positive and legal change.

And the dam situation was a no-win situation because even with massive support to remediate and restore and redevelop the region, there's always some amount of unintended damage in the aftermath. There's always unintended negative consequences. Legislation shutting down the dam would result in a resumption of the local fishing industry with its own irreversible fish genocide and other ecological blowback. Windmill farms kill hundreds of thousands of birds each year. Certain types of solar panels incinerate thousands of birds mid-flight each year. Blowing up the dam stopped the hydraulics but destroyed land animals and water animals and destroyed tracts of trees and families of birds, and resulted in the death of a camper and probably resulted in shutting down the camping grounds indefinitely. You're dammed if you do and you're dammed if you don't, pun intended.

Night moves.

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[deleted]

Thank you for sharing the poem and your insights. Good stuff!

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Excellent post @AlongTheGreatToneRiver. My immediate reaction to Josh's pushing the pregnant doe down the slope was that for an environmentalist he didn't seem to care very much about saving the unborn deer. It lent him a creepy vibe, setting the stage for him to contemplate getting rid of Dena (someone who had helped finance the group's projects) and later to actually kill her.

This early scene emphasizes Josh's single-mindedness, as well as his ego. It also shows him to be the dominant one whereas Dena is concerned. He does not come off as a very sympathetic character.





And all the pieces matter (The Wire)

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Agreed, the trio are unsympathetic

Except I do identify with Eisenberg's shell-shocked state at the end of the film, when he ventures to the commercial shopping strip, because I've been there done that (living in wilderness or isolated countryside then re-entering hubbub of society)

I'm hardcore pro-environment (and hardcore vegan and organic) and had no problem with this film, thought it was excellent and not anti-environment at all, film is about examining underpinnings and motivations of ideological beliefs and activism, but it appears pro-environmental people in particular are having a difficult time with it because the characters are unsympathetic, especially the farmers who expressly state they're only interested in living off the grid to save money, avoid taxes, avoid regulations, buck the govournment, etc

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Thank you, AlongTheGreatToneRiver.

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Regarding the unborn deer, I don't know what Josh could have done to save them unless he had veterinary experience and even then I don't know if it would be possible.

Regarding the OP's theory, I don't see enough evidence in the film to support the idea that Dena was pregnant. It is significant that she called Harmon instead of Josh. And it's also interesting that Harmon decided to call Josh to apprise him that Dena was losing it. Is there more to this story? Or are these phone calls just a plot device?

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That's highly doubtful. Surely it's only a few days from the cabin scene and the dam aftermath? Also, we don't actually know it was Dena in the cabin with Harmon. Why didn't they show them? I think it was included to fuel Josh's paranoia - it's possible Harmon was with another girl, since he clearly knew more people in the area than he let (e.g. guy in the diner). Dena had zero chemistry with Harmon before and after that scene, so I don't buy the ore gangly theory. I think she freaked out because of a) the camper death and b) the rash, which in itself could have given away her involvement in the bomb.

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