MovieChat Forums > Nymphomaniac: Vol. I (2014) Discussion > MALE RAPE? Joe on the train

MALE RAPE? Joe on the train

posted 10 years ago by pulciee-115-681303
99 replies | jump to latest

The scene where she ends up sucking off the married guy on the train was, from how I perceived it anyway, an example of rape and how male rape committed by women is kind of ignored or considered acceptable...the guy did NOT give consent, at no point in time(the first time with her friend OR with Joe) did he ever say anything but NO, PLEASE STOP, DON'T, etc...even WHILE she was sucking him off! Joe just took advantage of him, it seemed...I'm all for embracing female sexuality but this scene was NOT consensual, if it had been a married woman on the train denying a male pursuer who then took advantage in that way I think more people would have noticed...

[–] sheepdog07 9 years ago

It's not rape, most states or legal systems define rape as forcible, authoritative(police, teacher, boss etc.) or age penis/vagaina penatration. It's sexual misconduct, sexual assault or some form of sodemy. As far as him being strong enough to "fight her off", it doesn't make it any less of a crime. It's sort of like date rape. A girl being attracted, enough to go on a date or even go inside his home or invite him to her home, doesn't entitle a man to her body. Being intimidated into sex, without giving physical resistance, is still a crime.

[–] lazarillo 9 years ago

I'm sorry this is just stupid. Ask yourself this, if it were YOU would you prefer that THIS happen to you or the "squeal like a pig scene" scene in "Deliverance"? You just can't call both of those "rape".

Maybe a lot of men wouldn't (couldn't?) stop a pretty teenage girl from doing this to them (even though it never happens outside of a sex fantasy), but it's completely different thing than being anally raped by a hillbilly. Men CAN be raped (almost always by other men), but you're really minimizing the idea of rape to call this "rape".

If you're a straight male, just think what you would have done in the situation. You'd MOST LIKELY let her have her way with you (some words that have never been uttered by any male: "Hey, you sexy young thing, please STOP sucking my d**k") , but if you're moral or faithful to your wife, you certainly could stop her if you REALLY wanted to.

[–] Aniki21 9 years ago

Men can indeed be raped/sexually assaulted by women but this is not a good example. As others have pointed out while manipulative and morally questionable the man was in full control of his mental faculties. He wasn't drugged or inebriated in anyway and was completely capable of physically resisting her 90 pound frame if he wanted to. It was seduction through manipulation. Not rape.

[–] pbholmen 9 years ago

By the laws in several countries, it was. See my answer below.

[–] deadlydanish 9 years ago

The train incident is in no way a rape and that some people can even make that claim is pretty worrisome.

[–] Korios 9 years ago

Seduction requires consent, and no consent was given. "Body consents" are ridiculous to even consider. If he had said nothing I would agree that it was no form of sexual assault at all (I mean he was not additionally required to say "Yes, blow me"), and that his consent was implicit. However he explicitly said "No, no, stop" etc That makes it clear cut that he declined to give consent. If rape is too strong a word, he was sexually molested. But he was not merely seducted.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] stephen_jh1 8 years ago

women can not be charged with rape ... only sexual abuse or assault so man can not be raped by women

[–] Zombie55 8 years ago

But what if we either had NO laws OR in our humanity we had an 100% perfect understanding of what's morally right and wrong as well as legally therefore?

And even if they can be charged with sexual assault, isn't that still as serious?

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 9 years ago

So, all of those women crying, "Rape" just don't want sex with men? Naturally, women like sex forced on them?? Good to know. That makes a lot of sense.

[–] Korios 9 years ago

In other words you have to REALLY want to avoid the sexual advance, REALLY REALLY hard, so that it does not be considered rape. Again, this stinks of gender bias. You are also biased against men and how bad they all want to have sex with "pretty little young things", you generalize. I have used the word "rape" here in a broad sense, not in a legal sense. Perhaps legally sexual molestation would be a better term. I fully get your distinction, but I just think it is a case of a lesser crime, not no crime at all.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] Simon-140 8 years ago

Maybe a lot of men wouldn't (couldn't?) stop a pretty teenage girl from doing this to them (even though it never happens outside of a sex fantasy),

It happened to me. I even said "No" and walked away. (There were no legal issues, as the girl was about eighteen, but I felt terrible about betraying my partner. My partner and I were about thirty at the time, and I was travelling for work.)

Then the girl returned a few days later, drove me back to my hotel and followed me up to my room. By this stage, I couldn't see much harm in a night of infidelity with a charming, pretty and determined girl, so I went along with it happily. Her first attempt was a bit full on, and might technically have been "molestation," but the second night was consensual sex.

I'm not sure whether Joe legally molested the businessman in "Nymphomaniac": she was certainly skating on thin legal ice. Morally, I think she behaved rather badly, as she admitted herself. (My own case was different, because the girl gave me plenty of time to reach a decision.)

____
"If you ain't a marine then you ain't *beep*

[–] pbholmen 9 years ago

"most states or legal systems", perhaps, but not Bhutan, Israel, New Zealand, South Africa, UK and surely many others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape

In those countries, lack of consent is the criteria, not use of force. International organizations like Amnesty are pushing forward for other countries to change their legal definition, so that it doesn't require use of force, only lack of consent. The wikipedia list above doesn't discuss so many countries, so I'm sure there are many more countries who only require lack of consent.

[–] snes4u 9 years ago

What are you, a lawyer? Most of us normal people were too busy flexing our goatlizards to consider the legal ramifications of what we were watching.

[–] bossat2822 9 years ago

Ok- if everyone here was on a jury and watched this video ( let's say the train had a hidden security camera)- who would vote guilty for Joe for rape? Not me!!! And for the 'no means no crowd'- if you want to turn it around, turn it exactly around. If a handsome young man offered oral sex to a average looking middle aged woman and she says " it's not that I don't want to, I'm going home to my husband. Then as the boy lifts up her skirt, she breathlessly says please stop- while using the facial expressions and breathing as the man did on the train. Also picture the middle age woman get more excited as he puts his mouth on her vagina and she explodes in a minute or so. Do you anyone calls that boy a rapist?? Do you think the police, after viewing the same tape, would go after the young man.

The people who 'try' to call this sh!t rape really denigrates actual victims of real rape

[–] CaraBelubin 8 years ago

This!

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sorry for bad spelling and grammars, english isn't my language

[–] Code-Veronica 8 years ago

DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

[–] andrewrrrr 7 years ago

In that fictitious scenario, yes that middleaged woman is being raped. She is not consenting, is verbally telling him to stop and he continues to have sex with her. It does not matter if she ends up enjoying the sex or not.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] Korios 9 years ago

Basically Trier's main point in both the films was exactly that, that society thinks that only men can rape and tends to disregard rape-y women like Joe, as irrelevant. This film must be one of the top Feminazi targets, because it turns their "All men are rapiiiiiiists!!" neurotic howlings upside down.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] Ehronn 9 years ago

When I was 15 I had sex with my teacher.

Thing is I enjoyed it and kept my mouth shut eventually she went back to college but friends always wondered how I kept getting detention

Best memory of school

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[–] augurae 9 years ago

Yup, male rape.

But according to feminism this is okay.

[–] Zombie55 8 years ago

So are feminists then NOT all intelligent, logical, rational and even compassionate and just outright GOOD people then if they can think male rape by females is acceptable, I mean, do they REALLY all think that?

[–] ThreeSadTigers 9 years ago

The scene isn't about "embracing female sexuality" though; Joe is trying to convince Seligman that she's a terrible human being, which the story illustrates. Like many in this thread, Seligman rationalises the outcome and makes excuses for both parties, but Joe's intention with the story is to show, in microcosm, that she's a selfish, indulgent and destructive personality.

You're judging the character negatively based on her story when the story exists for no other reason than to present the character, from the outset, in a negative light.

[–] Zombie55 8 years ago

Do you think she should or should've been punished and arrested for it? Do you think if he killed her it would be justified?

Also - what about the other men with Joe on the train, did they all give verbal consent?

[–] Zombie55 8 years ago

If that scene was really rape then can I ask...

When people usually have sex consensually, in any scenario or situation, how do they feel and express consent and more importantly, how does it all come together and come across so that it cannot be considered legally and morally an act of rape?

Can one also employ a non-sexual scenario for a comparison?

Like, the reason everyone says consent in sex MUST be 100% certain and that you cannot have sex on a "maybe" like you could eat a piece of food when you don't want to is because?

I mean, I've seen plenty of, for example, erotic movies where every single bit on consent being 100% wasn't thoroughly debated, they just went straight into the act and enjoyed themselves. Some people even had and enjoyed surprise sex.

If no-one is being violently forced into it, and there are no injuries of any kind and both of them ultimately enjoy themselves and have no objections, and no-one when capable have even remotely said "no", why does that, like with this scene here, even REMOTELY have to be seen as/considered rape and be made a huge a deal of?

Personally speaking, I don't mean no offense to anyone.

But due to the constant and conflicting viewpoints and authoritarian attitudes I see constantly and continuously discussed on sex on the internet, I personally feel like I may never have sex in real life with anyone, for any reason, at all.

Which kind of begs this question as well - is sex in humanity, referring to sexual intercourse, overall, a good or a bad thing and why? Thanks!

[–] Zombie55 8 years ago

And should she be punished for it?

Also - could it be that the main reason the man doesn't report her to the police ISN'T because it cannot be proven etc, but because, he doesn't feel that what she did was so terrible as to ruin her life by something like a prison sentence?

Maybe the man in question is like the forgiving nun in Abel Ferrara's "Bad Lieutenant" (1992).

In other words, if a similar girl on a train did this to YOU in such a fashion, and you as a male didn't even object to it at any point but didn't explicitly give consent either, would YOU feel like you were raped and would you be mad with her to the point of maybe wanting her to be punished for such an act and, if possibly, seek jail time?

I'm not saying any of you are right OR wrong.

But to be perfectly honest, I AM a little psychologically confused and confronted.

Its like, hold on a second, so if you get seduced by a girl for sex, you don't object but don't EXPLICITLY give full consent in this day and age, even if you do imply it and don't object or struggle if necessary when can do, like in this scene, you are still a rape victim and the girl is a perpetrator, and even though you can both say nothing bad happened, the law and society will speak against it?

Folks, please DON'T have sex with me under any circumstances EVER, even if I give my consent.

And if we invented like a movie prison specifically devoted to female rapists of men, we would give Joe how much of a sentence?