MovieChat Forums > Courageous (2011) Discussion > Nathen and his daugther - my issue with ...

Nathen and his daugther - my issue with the dinner scene...

posted 13 years ago by ThePlusDizzle
103 replies | jump to latest

First of let me say that I rather enjoyed this movie, I didn't think I would so much. Here is my only issue with it:

The dinner scene with Nathan and his daughter... the whole time I was thinking "THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE." It's one thing to be concerned about who your daughter is dating, getting to know him and all of that good stuff. To want what is best for her is all fine and good. But to tell her that she could not replace the ring on her finger until her wedding ring is there is a little extreme... plus the implication that the father be a huge part in deciding who is right for her...

1) A father giving his daughter a ring is weird enough. It kind of has an incestuous meaning behind it... until God shows us the man for you then you're married to me, is basically the same peverted way of looking at it.

2) You mean to tell me that if she gets engaged, she can't replace it then? I've never understood that whole "no dating until the wedding ring" deal that some Christians believe in, such as the sisters in BarlowGirl. Should or should not you date someone, THEN get engaged, THEN get married? It's not meet and then marry... no one has been able to explain that to me very well.

3) Who is the father (or parents for that matter) to decide who is right for their little girl? I have demanded to know for ages. Yes it's one thing if he treats her like garbage. But I think the daughter, who spends much more time around the boy, knows him much better than a father would. If he treats her like gold and makes her happy than fathers for crying out loud DON'T SCREW IT UP FOR HER. If there is no real issue, don't make one. That's my motto.

4) No daughter I know would be that willing to agree to a deal like that.

I can relate this to my own life because my parents did not want me dating a boy at age 15, but by God I did. I've been with him for years. He turned out to be the best friend I've ever had, the love of my life, and the one that I indeed plan to marry someday... last February he proposed with a ring. But my parents certainly didn't make it easy for me, or us. They kept saying he wasn't the right one for me. If they ever dare to say it to me again I will ask... who are you to know who is right for ME? I think only I and God know that answer.

Here is an example of when my parents were so, so wrong... they always thought I should have gotten myself hooked up with a boy I've known since junior high... just because he would always greet my mother so warmly whenever he saw her. Just because he was like this, she thought he would have been a better choice for me. Just this past year I found out he was gay. Were my parents ever wrong about that one... this is why you have to give your daughter a little bit more trust... sometimes she actually DOES pick the better one.

I guess you could say this issue is strongly felt by me. By not allowing his daughter to date until God reveals to the father that this man is the right one for marriage is wrong... she could miss out on THE ONE just because he let his bias and expectation get in the way. How would the father know it's God and not just his own bias and expectation? Let the daughter decide and let HER pray to God for his revealing to HER. Just raise her up right and she ought to spot the right one. I often think my fiance is like my own father...

[–] Navaros 12 years ago

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE."

The film itself makes that same point. Nathan makes clear that he wants to be an exceptionally good father. Very few fathers are as good as him, because they do not put in the same effort as he does. Nathan is not supposed to be imitating fathers who already exist in real life; rather, he is supposed to encourage others in real life to become like him.

I've never understood that whole "no dating until the wedding ring" deal that some Christians believe in

You imply here that they just get married randomly, based on nothing, without first knowing each other. That is not accurate. Actually, Christians believe in courtship, not dating. Unlike what you imply, however, courtship is not nothing, and Christians do not get married randomly.

Who is the father (or parents for that matter) to decide who is right for their little girl?

The father has knowledge and experience that his daughter does not. This film also makes that clear. The daughter wanted to date a dangerous gangster/thug/idiot, but the father knew better, so he saved her from that. Thank God.

No daughter I know would be that willing to agree to a deal like that.

That is because they are not raised in a godly way by godly fathers. Again, this film makes that point too. If all fathers were like the good ones in this film, then life would reflect their daughters making good decisions like in this film. Again, the film is not trying to imitate current real life; rather, it is is showing how much better things could be in real life if everyone followed a godly example.

this is why you have to give your daughter a little bit more trust... sometimes she actually DOES pick the better one.

Why didn't you pick a third guy who greets your parent properly too? I give you credit for not picking as bad of a one as did your parents, but, you could still do better by picking someone who is not gay and greets your parents properly.

How would the father know it's God and not just his own bias and expectation?

Because the father is guided by God, and the father communicates with God. That is to say, the father's own biases should not matter in a godly father, because they are overruled by God's Will.

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

The film itself makes that same point. Nathan makes clear that he wants to be an exceptionally good father. Very few fathers are as good as him, because they do not put in the same effort as he does. Nathan is not supposed to be imitating fathers who already exist in real life; rather, he is supposed to encourage others in real life to become like him.

Yes, teaching your daughter that she's ruined or impure if she has sex is the markings of an exceptionally good father.

You imply here that they just get married randomly, based on nothing, without first knowing each other. That is not accurate. Actually, Christians believe in courtship, not dating. Unlike what you imply, however, courtship is not nothing, and Christians do not get married randomly.

What's the difference? I know plenty of Christians who date, so I disagree with your binary notion of formal romantic interaction between the sexes. Plenty of Christians get divorced btw, so you could say that they do get married randomly.

The father has knowledge and experience that his daughter does not. This film also makes that clear. The daughter wanted to date a dangerous gangster/thug/idiot, but the father knew better, so he saved her from that. Thank God.

Was the father a virgin until he was married?

That is because they are not raised in a godly way by godly fathers. Again, this film makes that point too. If all fathers were like the good ones in this film, then life would reflect their daughters making good decisions like in this film. Again, the film is not trying to imitate current real life; rather, it is is showing how much better things could be in real life if everyone followed a godly example.

What 'godly example' is that? Treating girls like their only worth is if they keep their legs closed? Denying poor people & the elderly social programs they desperately need? Hating gays? Prosperity gospel?

Why didn't you pick a third guy who greets your parent properly too? I give you credit for not picking as bad of a one as did your parents, but, you could still do better by picking someone who is not gay and greets your parents properly.

Why should a person have to accommodate their parents? What if my parents hate black people? Should I deny the feelings & common understanding I might have with a black person?

Because the father is guided by God, and the father communicates with God. That is to say, the father's own biases should not matter in a godly father, because they overruled by God's Will.

God's will will overrule the biases of man? Are you kidding me? LOL!!!!!

[–] Navaros 12 years ago

teaching your daughter that she's ruined or impure if she has sex is the markings of an exceptionally good father.

You are advocating to teach daughters that nothing is wrong with them being harlots. That is the mark of an exceptionally terrible father.

What's the difference?

The difference is that dating is about gratification, and courtship is about love.

Plenty of Christians get divorced btw, so you could say that they do get married randomly.

Admittedly, some Christians err by getting married before going through a rigorous process to see if it's a good idea. However, Christians who do that are not following God's way. They are following your (atheist/secularist) way, and that is why they are are wrong to do so, and that is why they get divorced.

If they instead followed God's way, that would not be happening.

Was the father a virgin until he was married?

Who knows? The film is about the the father at a time when he is an established family man, not about his origin story.

What 'godly example' is that?

Godly example = raising children to be respectable and godly persons, with the parents themselves serving as models for that.

Why should a person have to accommodate their parents?

Whether parents' wishes should be respected or not depends on if they are godly. If they are godly, their wishes should be respected because they come from God. If they are not godly, then their wishes should not be respected, because they come from their sinful nature.

What if my parents hate black people?

That is not a godly position, so no, it should not be respected. If we are talking instead about a godly position in line with God, then the opposite is true.

God's will will overrule the biases of man? Are you kidding me? LOL!!!!!

Again, you cannot omit my modifier, godly. What I have said is how a godly man operates. An ungodly man will operate in the opposite way, such as by endorsing daughters to grow up to be harlots, like you do.

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

You are advocating to teach daughters that nothing is wrong with them being harlots. That is the mark of an exceptionally terrible father.

Being harlots = having sex even once? LOL You're telling your daughter that her entire worth is determined by an intact hymen.

The difference is that dating is about gratification, and courtship is about love.

You're invented this definition, modified to your own tastes. It's a shame that gays can't have the same luxury when they choose to get married, because the Christians fear that 'traditional marriage' is undermined.

Admittedly, some Christians err by getting married before going through a rigorous process to see if it's a good idea. However, Christians who do that are not following God's way. They are following your (atheist/secularist) way, and that is why they are are wrong to do so, and that is why they get divorced.

If they instead followed God's way, that would not be ha

Plenty of married Christians are sinners too, again you just choose to focus upon one sin or another, rather than paying attention to the problem with sin altogether that your community (& as you see it, the world) has.

Who knows? The film is about the the father at a time when he is an established family man, not about his origin story.

Do you think men who weren't virgins until they were married are really credible though? Why all the focus upon the women? I don't see you making a fuss about adult male non-virgins.

Godly example = raising children to be respectable and godly persons, with the parents themselves serving as models for that.

Good luck with that, most Christians are absolute failures...but that's probably because they're focusing too much upon their daughter's vaginas to care about any self-improvement.

Whether parents' wishes should be respected or not depends on if they are godly. If they are godly, their wishes should be respected because they come from God. If they are not godly, then their wishes should not be respected, because they come from their sinful nature.

What is the litmus test for determining what is godly?

That is not a godly position, so no, it should not be respected. If we are talking instead about a godly position in line with God, then the opposite is true.

Tell that to plenty of racist Christians.

Again, you cannot omit my modifier, godly. What I have said is how a godly man operates. An ungodly man will operate in the opposite way, such as by endorsing daughters to grow up to be harlots, like you do.

Plenty of 'godly' men focus upon their daughter's vaginas, while giving a pass to their son's fornication. You guys are sick creeps.

[–] Navaros 12 years ago

ciab, if you want me not to put you on my permanent ignore list, then I am going to have to insist that you never again make any sick comments such as this:

intact hymen.

focus upon their daughter's vaginas

If you delete all such sick comments that you have made (not just the two I've quoted) and apologize for having made them, then we can continue this discussion.

If you fail to delete and apologize, then you will be on my permanent ignore list because you are too sick to try to have a discussion with, and your posts are too sick to read.

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

You focus upon intact hymens, which (according to some people & unscientific) is evidence of female virginity. Technically, you focus more upon young girls who don't have intact hymens, but that's splitting hairs. Hymens REALLY interest you. It isn't sick to point that out. If it offends you that I mention hymens, perhaps you should ponder why you would focus upon something, almost obsessively, that has the ability to repel you.

As for the comment about focusing upon daughter's vaginas, I don't think I should have to apologise for it. Your lot is focusing upon it. It's your sickness, not mine.

Go ahead & put me on ignore. I don't like talking to hypocritical people who focus too much upon underage vaginas anyway.

[–] ekmyers 12 years ago

Navaros really gets freaked out over words like "masturbate" and "hymen," which says a hell of a lot more about he/she/it than it does about those using it in the proper form.

ekm
Writer/Director -- ROULETTE
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1294794/combined

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

It's rather amusing how he/she/it is perturbed by these words, but is obviously obsessed by other people's--wait, other girl's sexual activity.

[–] ekmyers 12 years ago

Check the FIREPROOF board -- he/she/it refuses to believe that Kirk Cameron was masturbating to internet porn.

People living inside bubbles are typically terrified of the world.

ekm
Writer/Director -- ROULETTE
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1294794/combined

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

LOL I'm going to read that board now.

[–] ekmyers 12 years ago

Check the "Infidelity" thread I started.

ekm
Writer/Director -- ROULETTE
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1294794/combined

[–] Navaros 12 years ago

ciab, you are the only one who focuses on the sick stuff you mentioned, and that you keep mentioning obsessively. Your posts are far too sick for me to read ever again. As of right now, you are on my permanent ignore list.

[–] Gorilla_Hunter 12 years ago

You're the obsessed with underage vaginas, Navaros.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

"No daughter I know would be that willing to agree to a deal like that.

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That is because they are not raised in a godly way by godly fathers."

Oh please, no Christian I know of wears one of those things, and certainly not to promise themselves to Daddy.

[–] k-garibay 12 years ago

I had really strict "Baptist" parents growing up and they forbid me from dating boys until I was 17, just like in the movie. Since it was forbidden and I was not given an explanation as to why I could not date, I wanted to see what I was missing out on. I liked the dinner scene in the movie because it showed that the father really did care about his daughter. He cared enough to take her out for a special date and explain to her the importance of choosing a Godly man. If only my dad took me out on a special date once in my life, all by myself and explained to me what I needed to look for in a man, I think my life would have turned out a lot differently. I did not have the affection from a father figure so I took the first man that showed me attention. I learned the hard way and I sure don't wish the same for my daughter. I agree with the movie when they said that the father role is very important in the life of a daughter.

[–] just_wilco 12 years ago

He cared enough to take her out for a special date

If only my dad took me out on a special date once in my life

More fish for Kunta

[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

"Who is the father (or parents for that matter) to decide who is right for their little girl? I have demanded to know for ages. Yes it's one thing if he treats her like garbage. But I think the daughter, who spends much more time around the boy, knows him much better than a father would. If he treats her like gold and makes her happy than fathers for crying out loud DON'T SCREW IT UP FOR HER. If there is no real issue, don't make one. That's my motto"

If you're talking about a KID here, that's just ridiculous; girls get fooled by jerks all the time, esp. when they don't listen to their fathers. But if she wears a ring, it should symbolize dedicating herself and her purity to GOD, NOT her father.

[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

To those saying that this movie doesn't have to be realistic, because it "offers something better than reality", that's a ludicrous defense. If this film is too heavy-handed, it will be unrealistic for CHRISTIAN families too, and many Christian films manage to pull reality off.

[–] ekmyers 12 years ago

To those saying that this movie doesn't have to be realistic, because it "offers something better than reality", that's a ludicrous defense. If this film is too heavy-handed, it will be unrealistic for CHRISTIAN families too, and many Christian films manage to pull reality off.

Well put. It's a neutered version of reality.

ekm
Writer/Director -- ROULETTE
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1294794/combined

[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Thank you! I think overall it's good (from what I hear), but we need to really watch out for heavy-handedness.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ThePlusDizzle 12 years ago

Hi, I'm the OP. Wow, don't I ever know how to rock the boat on these forums.

Even my mother agreed that the dinner scene was ridiculous. She called it "fruity", and incestuous. MY mother said that...

And let me just point out... my spelling FAIL of the forum name. :P

[–] purple1-318-908179 12 years ago

For what its worth this stuff really DOES happen. Im a father of two girls now 19 and 20. When each of them turned 13, their mother and I along with our pastor had a small ceremony where we placed a ring on their finger in a purity pledge. They have kept the rings on and kept their vow to God and to us to this day. The world can put so many negative influences in a young girls life wew felt it was need to put something positive in its place. I encourage ALL fathers with young daughters to take the time for something like this!

[–] mrlpratt 12 years ago

I think the way Nathan approached the whole situation was admirable. First off, when Derrick came over to ask his daughter out he, like every father should do, got involved and asked to know more about this kid. And even though he declined his request he did an amazing thing: he welcomed the boy over to have dinner with them. (Notice that even after Derrick was thrown in jail Nathan visited him and spent time with him, since he had no one else. That to me shows Nathan was genuinely concerned and only wanted what's best for his daughter. And since she was interested in Derrick, Nathan wanted to get to know him better.) But I think Derrick dropped the ball big time when he declined because it basically showed Nathan that Derrick had no manners, he wasn't properly raised and most of all, he really wasn't genuine in his interest towards Nathan's daughter. I mean, if you can't even spend time with your "girlfriend's" family then how are you supposed to really get to know her? We get better cues about our love interest by interacting with his/her parents. They are the window into the future so to speak--we get clues as to how that boy/girl we're so interested in will possibly turn out one day, if the "relationship" lasts that long.
As some have said, today too many parents are more concerned about being their children's friend than parent so children capitalize on that and rule the roost, so to speak. If you let your children do as they please and run/grow wild like weeds then don't be surprised when you wake up one day and suddenly realize you don't recognize them anymore. To draw further on the analogy, check out the gardens that have been properly cared for; they are always beautiful. And that is because their caretakers put in the time and energy to fertilize, water and even prune them when it's needed. So good parents should do the same where their children are concerned.

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