MovieChat Forums > 10 Items or Less (2006) Discussion > FEWER! 10 Items or FEWER!!!!

FEWER! 10 Items or FEWER!!!!


Come on! Don't TV writers go to college and learn grammer?

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Because this is a common error in real life

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I want to add this post that I included over at the message board for the upcoming (and presumably unrelated) movie with the same title:

-----Text of post to other board--------------------
I would further add that the adjective "less" in the title "10 Items or Less" modifies the entire collective noun phrase rather than just the plural noun "items." While it is true that "items" is a count noun and would merit the adjective "fewer" on its own, the modification of a collective noun may be done using a noncount adjective, as one would do in the following: "playing with less than a full deck." If the title were phrased as follows: "10 or Less Items," then this would be grammatically incorrect, as the noncount adjective "less" would be directly modifying the count noun "items." It would need to be rephrased as "10 or Fewer Items" to fit with conventions of American English. I would argue, though, that "10 Items or Less" does not need correction to fit with conventions. One might reconsider this construction by thinking of it as expressing the idea, "10 items or something less" and thus calling to mind a generally smaller lump of merchandise, a lump conceived of as a unit and thus modifiable by noncount adjectives. The proposed revision to "10 Items or Fewer" simply changes the meaning just slightly to denote that the lane is intended for customers with 10 items, 9 items, 8 items, and so on down to one item, with the item count being emphasized. One might argue that this item count is fundamental to the meaning that grocers wish to express, but then one would be guilty to some extent of intentional fallacy, and grammar corrections must seek only to confine language to conventional usage, but not to tell writers/communicators what they want to express. This material will all be covered on the final exam.

-an English professor from Rhode Island

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ha!

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[deleted]

"A selective isle specifically designed for purchasing ones personally satisfying goods that is exclusively reserved for an integer that does not exceed the value of ten"

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That's "aisle."

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Yeah, I didn't feel to confident in my spelling.

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u mean "too"... right ;)

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You meant "you" didn't you?

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I agree with the thread's creator, though I must admit that there are times when I intentionally use 'less' in favor of 'fewer.'

Example: "I'll buy that camera if it costs less than two hundred dollars."

In this context, I am treating "two hundred dollars" as one entity - not two hundred sets of one dollar - so I say 'less.' Generally speaking, though, I try to use 'fewer' when it's correct.

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You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake!

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For those of you who claim to be students of the english language and attack other people's use of grammar I am now going to call you liars and charlatans. If in fact you had studied english you would know that grammar is not considered incorrect if being used to speak from or to someone that uses a specific dialect (as explained by Noam Chomsky). If the store in question was located in a town consisting of only annoying english students with nothing better to do with their time than to complain about signs at a checkout then the sign would say 10 items or fewer.

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Any grocery store I've been in (or department store) says 10 items or less.

It's grammar not grammer.

>>Come on! Don't TV writers go to college and learn grammer? <<<

What is wrong with this sentence? Shouldn't it say this? Come on, don't TV writer's go to college and learn grammar (well we know this should be grammar)

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>What is wrong with this sentence? Shouldn't it say this? Come on, don't TV writer's go to college and learn grammar

no. writers. not writer's . they're not possessing anything. dude. and don't reply something stupid about capital letters. it's not that i'm ignorant, i'm too lazy to use the shift key. and if i weren't drunk i wouldn't be posting to an internet forum at all about things like this. this discussion makes everyone here look silly. except the professor, he's correct from his paradigm. but really, take the linguist's point of view - language exists for function, and if the meaning is conveyed, then it is fine, regardless of grammar, spelling, &c.

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OH MY GOD!!! Who cares what it says, it's just a TV show.(Even if all of the stores I have been in say "10 items or less.") I think it should remain "10 items or less," because it sounds better, in my opinion. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong, the point of the matter is, it's a stupid thing to be fighting about, we are all wasting are time fighting about which saying we think is right and which one is wrong.

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[deleted]

I have, in fact, seen signs that read "10 Items or Fewer," but they are pretty rare.

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You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake!

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and again, popular opinion equals truth...

and grocery store managers are language experts...

those are both safe assumptions.

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Let's get back to the real issue here. i think the show is great. And with each episode I am sure the laughs will keep on coming.

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HAHAHA! I can't beleive someone didn't get that the saying is a popular thing among grocery stores! they have the 10 items otr less lines in almsot every grocery store! HAHAHA! I worked at a grocery store and register 1 and 2 were our 10 items or less lanes....

Shannon Rutherford...A vision of "Grace"

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As mentioned before, language is functional, and as long as the message is satisfactorily conveyed there's no problem. Nobody is going to walk to the check out and exclaim, "OMG! The sign uses a non-count adjective on a number value. How am I supposed to understand what it means?".

Further, less and fewer are synonyms: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/less

Less is probably used on signs to save space, since it's one letter shorter.

In "10 items or less", I'm sure "10 item or less than 10 items" is implied, and there's no reason "10 items" can't be viewed as a whole.

Further, the sign was probably made with the principles of user design, which caters to the language of the users and not the language of English professors. While it could be argued that professors could be users, the professors would have no difficulty understanding "10 items or less". Also, "less" has fewer syllables and letters than "fewer", and as mentioned before has an internal vowel rhyme with "ten", which offers better readability. Since user design tries to satisfy the needs (readability) of all users (average Joe and professor alike) while meeting other criteria (like the limited space on a small sign), "10 items or less" is therefore a better choice.

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This very interesting post by gasphynx points out yet another aspect of the debates surrounding whether or not these signs bearing nonstandard grammar should be corrected. The aspect I am referring to is the option of expressing oneself through unconventional or nonstandard English. One of the main things that good writers keep in mind when revising their work is audience, and if their audience would be better served by the use of nonstandard grammar, then writers sometimes make the good decision to use this grammar instead of standard grammar.

For example, when Bone Thugs-N-Harmony chose to title their song "Tha Crossroads" rather than the conventional "The Crossroads," they showed excellent awareness of their audience, who would feel a stronger communicative voice upon reading the vernacular spelling "Tha." The same can be said for Paul McCartney's decision to maintain the lyric, "She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah," as opposed to "yes, yes, yes," a decision which ensured a more exquisite level of cultural communication and expression.

While I am not exactly sure if and how grocers have achieved more effective communication with the use of a nonstandard adverb (Gasphynx suggests that it has to do with brevity or assonance), I would certainly feel out of place in suggesting that they are not "allowed" to dip into the ocean of nonstandard forms of linguistic expression as they write signs for their checkout lanes. Grammar corrections, as I stressed in my earlier post, should be limited to efforts to help writers/communicators more effectively say what they mean.

-an English professor from Rhode Island

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Sounds fine to me.

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