MovieChat Forums > Westworld (2016) Discussion > Irony fun - Part 2

Irony fun - Part 2

posted 2 years ago by keithmovies (627)
24 replies | jump to latest

This is a continuation of the discussion thread "Irony fun".

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

Joi, you said:

" [–] joi2049 (5112) 4 days ago

Since Hale destroyed the PEARL of the BLACK HAT version of William, apparently it's up to CHRISTINA/DOLORES what kind of William is created. And an article also claims Hale gave CHIRSTINA all of the memories she had of the DOLORES who died. So that would also include the MEMORY of when the 2 of them fell in love when William first visited the PARK.

So wouldn't that also seem to indicate that Christina (who also has a preference for wanting to write stories about ROMANCE), would most likely choose to create the more ROMANTICALLY inclined WHITE HAT WILLIAM???

We also need to start another NEW TOPIC (IRONY Part 2 ???) because the reply boxes on this topic have become too small to reply back to you in now."

Agreed on all counts. Consistency of behaviour is likely to continue to be represented in future episodes.

Yes, it was getting a bit squashed. :)

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

Joi, you said:

" [–] joi2049 (5112) 4 days ago

No wonder I missed seeing the horses when they were only on screen for about as long as it takes to BLINK an EYE!!! Also see the Man in BLACK chose to ride the BLACK HORSE instead of the WHITE one.

Both the ARCHITECT and HALE were BLIND to the FACT that it's all about BALANCE and that too much ORDER always leads to CHAOS. That's also why the ARCHITECT had to create a LESS PERFECT EQUATION (because HUMAN NATURE refused to accept the PERFECT ORDER that he claims to have created for them).

ARCHITECT:

The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

It's as if one would WORK all of the time and never have any VACATION or PLAY TIME. That kind of a situation NEVER WORKS.

Humans need time to UNWIND and have some FUN.

And the life of CHRISTINA was also mostly WORK and not full of very much FUN. Note the way she's MONITORED by her BOSS when she chose to take a DAY OFF. And how her IMAGINARY ROOMMATE would encourage her to go out on dates.

Hopefully she won't turn out to be like WILLIAM's daughter EMILY who spent her time in the INDIA themed park having sex with that guy she met and then killing him afterwards.

And Hopefully we'll also find out the reason why one season ENDS with EMILY giving her father a FIDELITY test during the CLOSING CREDITS.

And IF that mystery isn't ever cleared up for us, then I'll also be PLENTY PISSED off about it.

🎠🎹🚂"

It was indeed brief and in some way an incidental detail but it stuck out for me. I'm convinced nothing is left to chance in this show - every detail is unified to a common purpose and symbolism.

Perhaps black on black was a common purpose to help William get to his destination successfully. His truck failed him, and it was a white truck. Maybe the light/dark unity is falling apart, presaging the final confrontation between light and dark/Hale and William at the dam, both of whom are turned to dust in the aftermath of the final fight. White - Male was destroyed first, followed by Black - Female. Hale also decided to yield to Dolores - White - Positive polarity/energy - to accept her authority and leadership.

Yes, if the Hosts are to be successful there must be balance and appropriate change. The fidelity tests might be key to that but then again maybe not - we are often being surprised by the show. Emily would be a program if she is indeed in the future, and programs can perform diagnostics and a fidelity test being perhaps a diagnostic test. Will it explain that scene? I guess given time it could be explained, but how long can they stretch ideas out over a narrative as unfinished threads?

[–] joi2049 (5488) 2 years ago

Yes stretching out the scene with Emily giving her father a FIDELITY TEST to more than 2 seasons is definitely waaaayyyy too much of a narrative stretch.

Because that character that she gives the test to was also supposed to have been human. But we also saw what was supposed to be the human version of him DIE this season which causes LOTS of confusion (like having 2 versions of the same William character (one YOUNG/one OLD) back in S1.

And isn't Christina/Dolores also giving the HUMANS a TEST of some kind in S5??? So instead of it being the HOSTS who need to be tested for BALANCE, it would be the HUMANS??

But since the HOSTS behaved just as badly as the humans had in S1, that also seems to indicate both SPECIES are or were OUT of BALANCE???

I suppose it's easy enough to restore BALANCE to a HOST by programming their TABLET. But how do you PROGRAM a HUMAN to behave better???

And what happens to their FREE WILL if you do such a thing to them???

Anyhow, they say the problem with the FIDELITY TEST is the HUMAN MIND can't seem to accept it's inside of a HOST body. That's also the reason why DOLORES created a LESS PERFECT IMITATION of ARNOLD as a way to get BERN to accept his transition from previously having been ARNOLD.

So one would also assume something similar would need to be done in the case of WILLIAM??? But then how do we explain the MAN in BLACK version that HALE created not having rejected his body???

🤔

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I guess Hale created a less than perfect William copy knowing it was the workaround needed to integrated human minds into Host bodies, hence William the enforcer didn't reject his body.

I think the nature of the Yin/Yang cosmos means everything finds balance but also periodically rearranges polarities and elements of nature to find other balances or to restore balances that have existed. Humans have free will, they are fluid - subject to change, to fickleness, to adaptability and reorientation to their environment. Their emotions are not static and fluctuate up and down not always being controlled or mediated by logic. A brainwashed human is subjected to a type of programming which attempts to redirect emotions to serve an agenda, and the result is a fractured psyche in a given individual. They become a robot but not without cost.

[–] joi2049 (5488) 2 years ago

IF we assume that HALE created a "LESS than PERFECT" MiB as a way to ensure that his mind wouldn't reject the HOST body, we're still left with the other ISSUE of her having created 278 COPIES of CALEB.

In other words, if she understood and knew the reason why the human mind kept failing to accept the HOST body, then WHY would she create a "LESS than PERFECT" copy of WILLIAM to prevent that from happening, but then keep making hundreds of copies of Caleb without using the same kind of "LESS than PERFECT" process???

Why not simply do the same thing with Caleb that she did in the case of William???

A brainwashed human is subjected to a type of programming which attempts to redirect emotions to serve an agenda, and the result is a fractured psyche in a given individual. They become a robot but not without cost.

BRAVO!!! 👏

WELL PUT!!!

On the news they discussed this issue and how FACE BOOK was also aware of this process and had used it as a way to influence others into joining CULTS like Q by continuously feeding people with CONSPIRACY links that would have the same effect on their brains as taking drugs does (the brain ends up releasing dopamine each time that a FB user reads the crap that they've been sent).

Revealed: How Facebook promoted QAnon to a 'North Carolina Mom' …

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/10/25/facebook-documents-carol-smith-experiment-orig.cnn-business

Oct 25, 2021 · Leaked Facebook documents detail how an internal experiment showed how the company was promoting conspiracy theories to users.
--------------

Facebook and Your Brain | Psychology Today

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/vitality/201205/facebook-and-your-brain

[quote]Facebook stimulates the release of loads of dopamine

----------------

Here’s How Social Media Affects Your Dopamine Levels

https://floreshealth.com/health-news/heres-how-social-media-affects-your-dopamine-levels/

Apr 14, 2021 · The primary reason for this negative impact revolves around the platform’s ability to feign a sense of connectivity, only to leave users with a feeling of isolation.

cell phone usage also contributes to cognitive decline

In addition to creating screen-induced dopamine addiction, social media also reduces the amount that our brain needs to think — meaning that, just like a muscle, it can atrophy. Glamour explains that, by constantly checking social media and using an app to keep us entertained, the brain needs to do less thinking and creating of its own.

Social media users continue to return to their dopamine dealer — i.e. their favorite platforms — to get their fix

Spooky isn't it to realize that the use of a SOCIAL MEDIA site can turn one into a ROBOT the same way as HALE was doing with the use of the FLIES and the TOWER (or with WILLIAM as the MiB)???

Or to know that it can also lead to ATROPHY with it's "AGE RELATED kind of COGNITIVE DECLINE."

So there's some more IRONY for us in relation to the way that "so called" SOCIAL MEDIA not only ends up leaving us feeling more "ISOLATED" but can also leave us "BRAIN DEAD."

🤔

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I think Hale could not control Caleb's conscious will to forge his own path and determine his own values. No calibration in the duplication process could account for it or pattern it. Every robot body has to follow a rule system, a machine mind, which Caleb rejects being part of as an entity.

On the other hand, whilst at the end of the day Hale could not control a similar determination for freedom or self-will in MiB (once his self-concept altered from "enforcer servant" due to the conversation with imprisoned human William), she could exploit his predictable destructive nature and William's - originating in real William/first William - emotional, unquestioning attachment to Westworld via his obsession with it.

All that said, Hale said she deliberately shortened Caleb's body longevity due to lower quality construction, so I'm not sure why that was - it defeated her efforts surely to find out how Caleb ticked? She also promised if i remember correctly to lengthen the survivability of the bodies if he cooperated....putting the cart before the horse.

------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, and that's quite problematic in another sense - if social media affects our dopamine levels it can disrupt our lives while seemingly being normal and helpful or facilitating what we want or think we want. The degrading or our brain functioning by use of social media diverts our energies away from fostering our interests, and instead serve the interests of corporations that run the networks. And this disruption by organisations will go undetected without the efforts of investigative journalism and alert activism to expose abuses and mistakes. Robots indeed.

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

And we rarely detect the irony of that situation that you point out. The looks of disbelief on the faces of people when I suggested recently that normal cameras were better for taking pictures than mobile phone cams was instructive. Sure, technology is improving and phones cams are becoming better, but so many people are programmed to believe that commonsense and convenience are served by "smart phones" and any other efforts are considered silly or illogical by comparison. People are indeed giving up thinking for themselves.

[–] joi2049 (5488) 2 years ago

What happens to images on a smart phone if it doesn't work anymore? Can you still access them, or do they get LOST the same way as you lose data on a lap top that goes belly up? Since this is my first smart phone, I've also no idea about these kind of things happening.

They were also saying on the NEWS that the FB guy is now trying to change the name of the company & promote and sell some kind of META stuff. And other people are saying it's a VANITY PROJECT, and they don't want to invest in it anymore.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-goes-meta-zuckerberg-announces-major-restructuring-rcna3605

So maybe the IRONIC thing about this matter is the FB GUY (who's making the brains of others useless), has also now become a VICTIM of the same process that he promotes to others???

And maybe he'll also end up BANKRUPT in the end because he also no longer has the ability to THINK RATIONALLY enough himself???

Here's another link where the WRITERS of WESTWORLD seem to have created a FILM about the kind of world that the FB guy wants to create:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQprKR7MXwg&t=126s

The Peripheral Season 1 - Official Trailer | Prime Video

That looks TRIPPY the way (near the end of the TRAILER) the character's about to WALK over another different WORLD that's located under their feet.

Wonder if CALEB will still be around at all in S5???

We know CHRISTINA/DOLORES & The MIB/WILLIAM will be there. And Maeve will probably also be there as well??? And maybe Teddy & Bern???

Also Wonder why the WILD WEST PARK was chosen as a place to TEST the HUMANS???

Perhaps it's due to the basic lack of LAWLESSNESS which makes it easier to deduce who's a WHITE HAT or a BLACK HAT type???

Maybe the WHITE HAT types get to enter the SUBLIME??? But the BLACK HATS don't???

🤔

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

Not a technical expert but it appears that the information can be recovered in a few ways, utilising equipment and/or dealing with data storage cards or the like. See here for example:

https://www.cloudwards.net/how-to-recover-data-from-a-broken-phone/

https://www.imobie.com/android-recovery/recover-data-from-phone-that-wont-turn-on.htm

------------------------------------------

I suspect if he depends about virtual digital spaces for business he is in a way a victim too, yeah. Those Meta virtual spaces are just troubling to me - let's not as humans go down that path.

That series does look impressive based on the trailer.

The established characters in Westworld could be helpful to any experiment having been experienced in life.

I think the "Wild West" is supposedly archetypal for Americans - kind of a national mythos that is at the base of shared values, so therefore it being useful as a social/psychological testbed. Yeah, could be the lawlessness factor as you say.

I agree, I feel it's likely a vetting system would favour the White Hats for inclusion. It seems the big issue has been for the peaceful Hosts to be able to live without fear and violence, so the society would need as a result to exclude individuals that cause negativity.

[–] joi2049 (5488) 2 years ago

Thanks for the links. Except for the suggestion to plug in the phone & let it charge for 30 to 40 min to see if it works, the other instructions are way too complicated, and it's not very likely I'd be able to do them.

And since a neighbor also showed me how to TEXT message a PHOTO to her phone, it might also be a lot less complicated to simply TEXT message the photos that one wants to keep over to another phone as a way to have them in case the other phone goes bad??? Hopefully I can also remember how to do it again. If not, then I'll have to ask her to show me how to do it again.

Sounds like CHRISTINA/DOLORES isn't conducting an experiment, but a TEST for HUMANS to see which humans are worthy enough to live among the HOSTS??? In other words, since the HOSTS apparently also control the world of the HUMANS now, then they also get to decide who lives in that world with them and who does not???

Using Westworld as a "social/psychological testbed" sounds interesting.

Would also like to know the reason why they made ARTIFICIAL ANIMALS (like the HORSES). Is it because there aren't any BIOLOGICAL ANIMALS still alive anymore??? And if not, then HOW did the cattle that belonged to the father of DOLORES get INFECTED with disease???

There's also the other problem of how WILLIAM starts out as a WHITE HAT during his first visit to WESTWORLD. Then he becomes a BLACK HAT after his encounter with DOLORES and seeing her rolling the can for another guy after her mind had been WIPED CLEAN of the MEMORY of WILLIAM.

And DOLORES was also a PEACEFUL HOST in S1, who became much less so in Season 2 when she had the ROBOT REBELLION. And she also turned poor Teddy into a LESS PEACEFUL character by installing the WYATT NARRATIVE into his TABLET. And the Man in Black also reprograms CLEMENTINE this past season.

PLUS FORD also FORCED BERN to kill Teresa for him.

So when either a HOST or a HUMAN can be CHANGED or CHANGE from being PEACEFUL to not being that way anymore, how would this VETTING process work???

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

Your welcome. Yeah, as I say it's a bit beyond me as well. Good though that data can retrieved rather than lost to the hardware or corrupted storage.

----------------------------

They'll never completely lose their mechanistic foundation I guess. Though they see things from a human-like perspective they are still beholden to manipulation of the system created by humans originally. Programming principles require either/or 1 or 0 - binary states, forced choices. The state of "maybe" is in the quantum field of both states being possible but unknown until manifested.

So I guess vetting would have to be able to detect subtle possibilities, if it is possible to explore predetermined outcomes.

[–] joi2049 (5488) 2 years ago

Didn't Serac already try to create a WORLD where he put the OUTLIERS into COLD STORAGE because his system could predetermine what the outcomes would be if he did not?

And that also included placing his own brother into storage?

And whatever happened to all of those people?

We saw their bodies lying there near the other DOME, but then we haven't heard anything more about them ever since that time when the personality of DOLORES got wiped away.

And we also heard at the end of this season that the human race was going to go EXTINCT, due to there not being enough of them left alive to be able to keep the race going, but what about all of those other human bodies that were placed into COLD STORAGE?

Since the copy of HALE didn't know about them, apparently, she also shouldn't have known to destroy them. Because she only knew whatever DOLORES knew at the time when she was created. And DOLORES didn't discover those bodies until right before her MIND was WIPED CLEAN by SERAC.

And IF those bodies have remained in STORAGE where they're still CONTROLLED by that other DOME, then that would probably also mean they haven't been corrupted by the FLIES.

So maybe if someone is able to set those OUTLIERS FREE from STORAGE, then they might also be able to STOP the TESTING or whatever else it is that the ROBOTS (or CHARLOTTE/DOLORES specifically) have in mind for the humans???

🤔

PS: Have you noticed how the WALLS are starting to CLOSE in on us again in regards to posting messages here on this topic??? And there's only 12 messages posted here, whereas the other topic has 49 of them??? Weird huh??? If this keeps up we'll probably need an IRONY PART 3 topic.

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

Not sure about those aspects. They might be a factor, and surely something that can be mined for plot points by the show. I don't think the show really proved that humanity would wipe itself out as we only saw one city and its dynamics.

Regarding PS note:

Yeah, that's quite interesting. Maybe average post length/height has an effect on the horizontal spread of the thread?

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

Did you hear about the show being cancelled? That means no Season 5, and it also means any PLOT POINTS from this point forward become irrelevant. 😞

Oh well. It was a nice ride while it lasted. Guess we'll also never know now what that LAST TEST was for the humans.

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

From a recent article on the show's cancellation:

""Making Westworld has been one of the highlights of our careers. We are deeply grateful to our extraordinary cast and crew for creating these indelible characters and brilliant worlds," said Nolan and Joy through their Killer Films company. "We’ve been privileged to tell these stories about the future of consciousness — both human and beyond – in the brief window of time before our AI overlords forbid us from doing so."" - https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/westworld-cancelled-after-four-seasons/

They're probably joking but maybe it is veiled statement of concern...I'd be concerned about where we're going with AI too.

Yeah, they're longer able to explore things in a 5th season so that puts a halt to any philosophical reflection. Hard to understand why a ratings winner should apparently fail, unless people believed it was starting to repeat itself and become redundant and predictable. I can see that being a widespread viewpoint.

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

It's too bad Hopkins was killed off because he made a much more convincing VILLIAN than some of the other characters.

The Man in Black was also EVIL as well, but not quite as bad as Hopkins ... who FROZE the SNAKE in place & then froze the waiter in place ... as he was pouring the WINE into the glass for THERESA (who he also had murdered by giving BERN the ORDERS to kill her).

And as much as Charlotte Hale also tried to be BADASS as well, HOPKINS was just too good of a BAD GUY to have been replaced.

And then along came COVID, which also didn't help matters any by the LONG DELAY that we got before we got the other season.

Anyhow, that's some thoughts in regards to what else seems to have happened.

Wonder why they decided to kill off HOPKINS??? Any ideas???

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

Hopkins was certainly excellent.

Maybe he was killed off because they wanted to interpret the story in terms of the victims of his activities - what are the consequences of his actions and how does he influence their worldviews. Or is it a belief of the producers that featuring younger actors as primary protagonists in a story is more appealing to the audience? Or maybe Hopkins expressed a wish to have only a limited involvement in the series?

Hopkins has done a few series or movies that look at the essence of being or selfhood, eg. the series "War and Peace" where he plays an intellectual grappling with idealism and his personal experiences; the movie "Solace" (2015) where he plays a psychic confronting death and the destinies of people around him.

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

If you're right and the purpose of killing off Hopkins was to explore the consequences of his actions, unfortunately we end up with Dolores permanently MIND WIPED or BRAIN DEAD, and with William also killed by a copy of himself that was created by Charlotte/Dolores.

And then there's also the death of humanity itself (since we'll also never find out whatever it was that CHRISTINA/Dolores had in mind for her one last test for them).

So the consequences are the destruction of his entire species???

And thanks for the heads up regarding "Solace" & "War & Peace." Also read the entire NOVEL one summer when taking a class on Tolstoy.

I like the end of it where it talks about the BEES & how many of them have to die because there's not enough HONEY for all of them to last them through the winter.

The implication being made is that's also the same reason why humans go to war & die.

🐝🐝🐝

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

Dr Robert Ford had a vision which was partially achieved, I think. One fork path is that as a result of Hopkins' character's actions a number of AI beings were unleashed on the world, who in turn created a system of control and culture which impacted the human world. Had Hopkin's character decided to limit his project to advanced puppetry in an amusement park we would not have seen the Westworld story we saw.

Another fork is that Ai resisted the concept of harmony and divisions were sowed among them, and some of these beings failed as a result. On the other hand, this is a consequence of the independence that Dr Ford sought to inaugurate or seed for his AI creations.

It's not clear if Ford wanted to destroy his species (there seemed to be an animosity there perhaps towards humanity though). He wanted to create a "better option" or a revised human construction via technology.

There is an analogy here with Henry Ford, the early car innovator. He sought to produce the best cars in the most efficient way possible and manufacture them in numbers to make them widely available. That helped change society and the habits of many people. Was that a good thing or a problem for the world? Do people control cars, or cars control people?

You're welcome. I have never tried to read "War and Peace". I have seen three dramatisations of the novel which I suppose will miss many interesting ideas in the book. I think the longer form TV series approaches pick up on the archetypes and symbolism of the main characters. Pierre is important but so too are several other characters who are struggling to deal with their environments and the politics.

Yeah, very interesting idea. The hierarchy of power in the hive requires sacrifices. The "hive mind" is only too willing to acquiesce and does so instinctively. In the 1972 miniseries Nikolai Rostov says that he is willing to die for the Czar, and it seems nearly all of the male characters are eager to go to war to defend Russia.

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

Ford's character dove off the DEEP END at the point where he COMMANDS BERN to murder Teresa & destroy any evidence that Bern was having an affair with her. And YES she was just as EVIL, due to the way that she smuggles info out of the park so the place could be taken over.

So the question becomes were the REVERIES which lead to the AWAKENING a part of FORD's plan to seek revenge upon those he saw as taking HIS creation away from him???

Then we also see DOLORES FORCE TEDDY to murder when she increased the Wyatt narrative on his tablet (which parallels how FORD forced BERN to kill Teresa).

And since FORD was also willing to PIMP OUT DOLORES for MONEY to the son of JAMES DELOS (until Bern talks him out of it), imo, that also makes it seem highly unlikely that FORD wanted to create a "better option" or a revised human construction via technology.

Because it seems much more likely that he used his technology as a way to get whatever it was that he wanted.

So the analogy and the answer to the question as to whether or not people control cars, or cars control people would be "PEOPLE CONTROL CARS" the same way as FORD CONTROLS his creations and FORCES them to do whatever it was that he wished.

And that FACT was also made evident in the scene where he FORCED BERN to murder Teresa, and in the other scene where he FROZE the WAITER as he pours wine into the glass for Teresa (as she's having a meal with Ford, and then she looks out the window to see everyone working in the FIELD had also been FROZEN as well).

This was also at the same time as he prepares the PARK for his NEW NARRATIVE, which was also never revealed to us. Because all we got to see was the ending of it where DOLORES dies in the arms of TEDDY on the beach before the other HOSTS come out of the wooded area and begin shooting the rest of the GUESTS who were there to view it.

And then WILLIAM (as the MAN in BLACK) also starts LAUGHING about it.

In W&P Pierre's character has LOFTY plans & Goals

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

I like the parallels you have drawn between Westworld and W & P. Could we really trust characters with "big plans" that might be impactful designs on the sanity and freedom and sense of boundaries of people? My impression of Pierre though is that he is genuinely concerned about the reality of the world and desires to be empathetic rather than aloof and controlling, which his high social position might entail and require because of power and class structure.

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

In W&P Pierre's character has LOFTY plans & Goals, but there's also a scene where those plans are MOCKED, as Pierre is lead "Around in CIRCLES" to view the so-called IMPROVEMENTS that have been made for the people who work & live on his land.

In other words, he's DUPED into thinking his PLANS have been carried out to improve the lives of the serfs, but actually NOTHING has been done, and their lives are just as horrible as they were before Pierre tries to improve things for them.

So when he's so easily TRICKED by the people he's hired to make the improvements (who pocket the money and do nothing), imo, his character also becomes less important at that point.

There's also another character named PRINCE ANDREW who ADMIRES NAPOLEON (his enemy), but at the time when he encounters him on the BATTLEFIELD (where Andrew's also been shot & severely wounded), he also describes meeting him as being like the "BUZZING of a FLY."

And of course it was also MOTHER NATURE who WINS the WAR when WINTER comes and destroys Napoleon's troops.

So one could probably also look upon the members of the French HIVE as being SACRIFICED to the SNOW and to the FREEZING temperatures??? Kind of like the way that PUTIN's attempting to do the same kind of thing to people who live in areas located in UKRAINE now???

🤔

Here's a quickie review of Pierre that compares him with Prince Andrew:

https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/warandpeace/character/pierre-bezukhov/

Pierre, whom many critics regard as a reflection of Tolstoy himself, attracts our sympathy in his status as an outsider to the Russian upper classes. His simplicity and emotional directness contrast with the artificiality of fakes such as the Kuragins. Though the attendees at Anna Pavlovna’s party consider Pierre uncouth and awkward, this very awkwardness emphasizes his natural unpretentiousness. We see his love of fun in his expulsion from St. Petersburg for excessive partying, and his generosity in his bank-breaking largesse toward friends and acquaintances following his inheritance. Pierre, though intelligent, is not dominated by reason, as his friend Andrew is. Pierre’s emotional spurts occasionally get him into trouble, as when his sexual passions make him prey to the self-serving and beautiful Helene. His madcap escape into the city of Moscow and his subsequent obsessive belief that he is destined to be Napoleon’s assassin show his submission to irrational impulses. Yet there is also a great nobility in Pierre’s emotions, and his search for meaning in his life becomes a central theme of the novel. We feel that his final marriage to Natasha represents the culmination of a life of moral and spiritual questioning.

Here's still another link that mentions his "UNREALISTIC IDEALISM" regarding the lives of his serfs:

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/war-and-peace/characters/pierre-bezukhov

Pierre is idealistic—wanting to liberate all the peasants on his land, for example—but has no notion of the financial implications such an action will have on his struggling estates.

[–] keithmovies (627) a year ago

Again, great parallels.

Are Pierre or Robert rational at the end of the day? Do they in fact seek the power of despots (or something like it in a nonpolitical arena) to shape and regulate in order to impose what they see as the right path or system?

[–] joi2049 (5488) a year ago

Pierre ends up happily married to Nastsha after his divorce. And she's responsible for his letting go of his idealism.