MovieChat Forums > Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (2007) Discussion > Umbridge and the minister weren't workin...

Umbridge and the minister weren't working with Voldemort?


I'm confused about this. I kept waiting for the reveal that all the illogical things they were doing was to help Voldemort.

But it seems like they didn't have anything to do with it, they were just a bunch of assholes for no reason.

Why would they not verify Harry with the many tools they have to make sure he tells the truth when he said it was in self defense?

Why would they deny the kids education on defense against dark magic unless it was to weaken them for Voldemort?

Was Umbridge just a random asshole that hated kids(like she admitted) and tortured them and ruined their school out of spite?

Did i miss it when they revealed they worked for him?

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It's possible that Umbridge was a secret supporter of Voldemort, but she was never shown to be a Death Eater... so the assumption is that she was just such an asshole that she was welcomed into Voldemort's civil service when he took over. Some people are just assholes.

Fudge wasn't an asshole, he was a tragic figure, really. He refused to believe Harry and Dumbledore until it was too late, who knows why, and it cost him his job as Minister of Magic. He lived to see Voldemort conquer and kill his successor, and to then be defeated by the kid he'd refused to believe, and presumably lived the rest of his life knowing that he spent his term as minister on the wrong side of history. He's clearly based on Neville Chamberlain.

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Ah damn, i was hoping i missed something and they DID work for him.

I bet even Voldemort would have been more forgiving if he had ran the school. In fact, he'd probably hate Umbridge because she doesn't want people to use magic to their full potential.

Couldn't Fudge be a tragic asshole figure? To me he seemed irrationally against Harry and Dumbledore. Like he already made up his mind for no real reason that i could see. I felt like i missed a scene with Harry taking a shit on his lawn or something to at least warrant some of that hostility.

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That's actually one of the things I like about the HP universe - people aren't clearly divided into good and bad. Yes, Voldemort's supporters are all bad, to a greater or lesser degree, but the good guys aren't all good either. Even Dumbledore, Voldemort's mightiest and most dedicated opponent, has slave labor at his school and is prepared to sacrifice Harry to the cause, he's not a nice or ethical person. He really is out for "the greater good".

And Umbridge is just a random asshole, someone who lives for petty tyranny, and who found more scope to be an asshole under Voldemort than under Fudge. I doubt she gives a rat's ass about politics or the big picture, she just wants to boss people around and punish anyone who refuses to obey.

As for Fudge, I suspect that a lot of his opposition to Harry is due to his long and difficult relationship with Dumbledore, which is never discussed in detail in the books, just mentioned here and there. Dumbledore had been offered the Ministry of Magic jobs several times and turned it down, which means that he would have been a direct rival of Fudge's, and Fudge would have resented him and thought of him as a rival. But worse, Dumbledore had eschewed the political world, instead of going into politics he'd chosen to make Hogwarts into his personal, unassailable power base. Which it was, he employed OooP members and allies even if they were terrible teachers (Snape), he manipulated the minds of a generation, and made the all-important Harry Potter into his unquestioning supporter. Now, if you were a politician, who'd spent your career in the public eye, what would *you* think of someone who used the nation's educational system to build a secret power base??? No, Dumbeldore was *not* a nice man, and a decent and rational man like Fudge could easily mistrust him...

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Thanks for making me seeing some things clearer. It does make sense for Fudge now, i just wish the movie explained his reasons like you did in just a few lines.

More importantly, it makes sense to me why Dumbedore would hire someone like Snape who really did not seem to wanna teach shit.

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Unfortunately, movies just can't have the same level of detail as the books, it's just the nature of the medium. So there's really no way for a movie to explore the relationship between Fudge and Dumbledore, particularly as it's largely implied and never discussed in detail.

One of the things I like about the Potter books is that Rowling takes a hard cold look at the standard genre character of the father-figure wizard. Ever Fantasy genre book has one, and usually the hero just accepts then as a positive figure and goes on with the quest when they die. Rowling is one of the few genre authors to realize that a top wizard may well be a scheming bastard, even if he's scheming in a good cause. And even in the books, it's never implicitly said that Dumbledore is using Hogwarts as a power base and hiring crap teachers (Snape, Hagrid, and Trelawny) who are important to his cause, I don't think the protagonists ever really understand this.

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Umbridge is a psychopath.

Fudge was just a coward, and chose poorly, as the above poster indicated. Not a bad man; he just effed up.

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