MovieChat Forums > The Lost Prince (2004) Discussion > Zero mention of the Yanks?

Zero mention of the Yanks?


Please don't get me wrong with this topic title; I enjoyed this screenplay very much from the fine direction to the sets and costumes to the scripting. Kudos to the cast that all performed with excellence, (and I was especially disarmed by Miranda Richardson as Queen Mary if you needed to know). Certainly it afforded educated insight of the challenges, and the resulting successes and failures, of a precariously inept royalty during that period that I would have not otherwise ever known of let alone considered.

However, after I dried my eyes and the credits were rolling, I realized that there was something missing... With a great portion of the performance centered upon the horrors of WW1 and how royalty was becoming totally inefficacious in doing anything to either prevent it, stop it or win it, I did not catch one mention of America entering the war. Granted, casualty-wise, (and not to diminish the sacrifice of any soldier in any way), the USA was a mere footnote compared to the losses of Russia, Germany, Austria, England and France. But perhaps such low casualties out of over four million US soldiers mobilized can be seen as either the result of our lateness in arriving, our ability in fighting to win or a combination of both?

The fact remains however, (and this was brought out well and repeatedly in the play), that morale had reached new lows with earlier assumptions of a quick Allied victory becoming very dubious with most everyone at home waiting day to day to hear whether or not the Germans had broken through Allied lines.

That's when we yanks showed up and turned the tide in the Spring of 1918. If we had never shown up, that war might have lasted yet another 4 or 5 years and the death toll doubled to over 18 million but not with only more soldier's lives - certainly more women and children too with many of those being English and French.

As the expression goes, "If you don't toot your own horn, who will?" Well, I 'toot' only that I was dismayed that American involvement was not mentioned in this screenplay and that led me to ask the question why? Is the absence some sort of European psychological process of denial at play or is it a reflection on the affect intravenous doses of liberal news media have upon them in regard to Iraq?

If the latter, let me make one thing perfectly clear to my European brothers and sisters, if the USA had had a hawk president in 1914 and a willing populace that put him there, (and I say 'him' because women couldn't even vote back then let alone be president..), and we had entered the war near the start, is there any doubt that it would have tipped the scales and MILLIONS of lives would have been saved? If we had all stopped Hitler from taking Poland in 1938, (per what should have happened per the Treaty of Versailles, correct?), is there any doubt that many more MILLIONS of lives would have been saved? And yet, if such had indeed taken place there would remain no proof of such millions having been saved! There would be only the musings of political pundits bandying about their experts' projections in tabloids whining about what was wrong with doing it and of what 'might of' occurred and all them likely wrong in one fashion or another.

If that alternative outcome sounds a wee bit familiar and, if those two wars were of any indication, it seems that the USA was guilty back then of waiting too long while watching evil power gather in the distance and all of us in the free world guilty of watching history repeat itself in WW2. Let it be known that I for one see George Bush and Tony Blair as two leaders of the free world unwilling to watch it all happen yet again with both knowing fully well there will be little or nothing to prove 'what might have happened' if they had been as willing to wait and watch as were our leaders in the past. The courage to endure the prospect of such lack of proof, endure the tabloid pundits et al, to me, is the mark of true leaders and was, apparently, a painfully absent quality back in 1914. Though this screenplay did make its mark on that point, I believe that it should have at least mentioned that we were there too so that people might consider that, today, the yanks have come to the rescue yet again but, this time, - on time.

reply

Mike isn't representative of all Americans. Please keep that in mind. (I'm surprised someone nitpicked that there was no mention of America. So disappointing. And rather silly. There's always someone out there to embody the stereotypes, though, isn't there? That's how stereotypes come to be.)

This wasn't a historical drama, per se, but an emotional portrayal of one family's struggles with a son's illness, which happened to play out against the backdrop of WWI. And the Russians were their cousins, so it makes total sense to include them as extended family, world politics aside. (Try Hope and Glory, Mike, there are no Yanks in that WWII tale, either, just Brits and Canucks. I'm sure it'll drive you mad.)

Really, after all of Hollywood's excessive rewriting of history in film (U-571, anyone?), I don't think any of us will melt if the Americans go unmentioned in a British film about the British experience in Britain. Criminy.

Tina,
San Diego, CA

reply

Are you aware how minute the American military contribution was?

The Central Powers were defeated by British Naval blockades which contributed to the erosion of German morale and economic capacity.

Please, get your history right. The Americans were appallingly ill-trained, even marching at machine-gun posts in columns. The reason casualties are so low is that the American troops participated in so few battles. Most of the time they were used to defend or 'hold' areas while European forces fought.

reply

Frighteningly, there are many other films and TV programmes in which the US contribution in the Great War was mot mentioned. These films include - The Forsyte Saga, Bridget Jones Diary, Friends and Crocodiles, Vanity Fair, Cop Rock, Brookside, Van der Valk, Wife Swap and Strictly Come Dancing. This is clearly unfair. All of these should be remade forthwith and this monstrous historical error corrected.

reply

I am with Mike all the way on this, as long as he insists that in any film about the American War of Independance that at least one yank character says 'well all I can say is thank God for the Brits, thanks to them we dont have to speak french'.

reply

ROFL OMG I LOVE AMERICA WOOT WOOT

reply

This is clearly unfair. All of these should be remade forthwith and this monstrous historical error corrected.


So true, so true. I was planning to see Tod Slaughter in the " Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street " but I found out that there was no mention of either the US Marines nor American barbershop quartets. The British. Sheeesh. Ignoring our contribution to murder and barbers both. Ah yes, America. Where right wingers make sure marraige is the way God intended it. Between a woman and the midget that wins her on a TV reality show.

reply

Thank the gods for mental_nomad! There IS hope for the USA!!!!

'Zero mention of the Yanks?'

This title is wrong in SO many different ways.....

sad, sad, sad!

reply

[deleted]

Despite the attempt I made to minimize the magnitude of any 'importance' I held in bringing it up in the first place, your reply is one of very few allowing me to cling to the hope of this being a sane world - and I thank you for that!

I wasn't interested at all in mentioning any military aspect of US involvement in the least. As many pointed out and I agree is obvious, the war certainly wasn't the focus of the movie.

But the context of the screen play, as I saw it, was one of highlighting the similarities of two relationships with one being Johnny to his parents and the other being royalty to their 'England'. The movie continuously flips back and forth between those two relationships and I got the message that the King and Queens' perception of their country was identical, in scale, to Johnny's perception of them. Conversely, their perception of Johnny was identical in scale to England's perception of them.

So, in that context, there is war going on and Parliament would rather just tuck royalty away in a closet somewhere in the same way royalty preferred to do with their Johnny. Then comes the deep cut about changing their name to something less 'German' sounding. THAT was the element of the war I'm talking about in this movie - not bullets and troops. The King storms out of the meeting in a tantrum and the Queen retreats lying on a couch declaring, "I'm English from toe to tip and from tip to toe." Both of them totally out of touch with the reality of what was happening outside their doors - exactly the same as Johnny.

To bolster the image of their detachment from reality, a single line could have been there from the King questioning why did the USA come to help? Why would any prior English colony that fought to be free of us possibly want to do such a thing?

It just seemed like something that would have amplified that context and my suspicious nature got the best of me to ask if perhaps there was some 'other' reason why it was absent?

The moment I started writing my original post I realized it would also be an interesting litmus test of the extent of the vile and nasty attitude some Europeans have for the USA. To my chagrin, many vile replies were from US liberals from whom I learned absolutely nothing new; to the rest - thanks for playing!




reply

'a single line could have been there from the King questioning why did the USA come to help? Why would any prior English colony that fought to be free of us possibly want to do such a thing?'

This script was written after extensive research by the screenwriters - much of the dialogue was based on firsthand accounts etc. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this was the attitude of the Royal family? Or rather that this is wish forfillment on your part because some how you were not given enough 'thanks' on other issues?


reply

Simon

I believe you hit it on the head when mentioning wish fullfillment regarding "thanks" on other issues. Which would be problematic because it would never stop. It would have to reach the level of farce, which upon reflection it already has.

reply

The series is called 'The Lost Prince', not 'WWI and how America came in and did their bit'. The focus of the story is on prince John and how he sees events as they unfold.

reply

“The King storms out of the meeting in a tantrum and the Queen retreats lying on a couch declaring, "I'm English from toe to tip and from tip to toe." Both of them totally out of touch with the reality of what was happening outside their doors - exactly the same as Johnny.”


So far from the truth, not only from a historical standpoint but also from a cinematic one, that it bears comment. First off, the Royal Family was deeply affected by the war. Not only in the day to day ways such tasks wear one down but they felt deeply the pain of their countrymen. Not only the soldiers but the civilians as well. It was the Queen who got widows more benefits. Not parliament. The Queen made the comment for real, and in the film “I’m British etc” for a very valid reason. She had just endured two very traumatic experiences for one who was the Mother of the country. The thought of not being thought of as British at a time like that was a hard one for them. They were already sensitive to the issue so much so they had changed their family name. But much of their job was to be the image. Strong. Unyielding. Defiant. Resolute. Not a weepy Dick Vermeil type. Not in public. Tough row to hoe.

Ok, this next paragraph is priceless.

“The moment I started writing my original post I realized it would also be an interesting litmus test of the extent of the vile and nasty attitude some Europeans have for the USA. “

Ah, so he blatantly admits he deliberately set out to be a Troll. Too bad all the rebuttals were firm but polite and full of all kinds of facts and ideas he conveniently ignored.

“To my chagrin, many vile replies were from US liberals from whom I learned absolutely nothing new; to the rest - thanks for playing! “

Actually, I’m not a liberal. But as a historian I find facts have no politics anyway. Only the interpretation of them. His efforts smack of a shrill attempt at revisionist history. He has no historical basis for anything he has ranted about. None whatsoever. Which is what I found so utterly embarrassing. I mean it. I actually physically cringed for him when I read what he actually wrote. I have two more words to say on this part. History Book.

He did say one thing though that I believe to be completely true. When he stated “I learned absolutely nothing” I believe him. Completely.

reply


Let's see, you said <<I would also point out to the rest of the world that not every American is like this xenophobic right winger.>> and <<Or is it you are merely you saw this movie on a Haliburton private jet? >> and <<Where right wingers make sure marraige is the way God intended it.>> in prior posts then now lamely declare <<Actually, I’m not a liberal.>> Yeah, and to anyone that believes that - I have a bridge for sale!

Besides the personal attack in the prior post, you now make another one accusing me of being a troll. HOW MANY TROLLS STICK AROUND TO REPLY? Answer THAT. (Ok, maybe you're a naive newbie and don't know what an online 'troll' really is?)

You said in a prior post, (of the movie), <<It focused on one little boy's life and the family he was part of.>> but now say, <<First off, the Royal Family was deeply affected by the war.>> "First off" ? So you now admit that it was an important backdrop to the story?

<<Too bad all the rebuttals were firm but polite>> - Most excepting the deleted ones and yours of course.

You totally ignore TWO things I keep repeating - 1. I agree that anything about bullets and soldiers had no place in the movie but that basis seems to be the only straw man you have to attack. 2. And, after my prior post and watching the movie a second time, that it is a direct comparison between the relationships between the royals to their boy and England to the royals. Not a peep from you about that.

No, you want to carry on with your straw man attack and 'cringing' for me, (by all means if you enjoy it ...) and sophomorically stooping to chopping up my sentences (!) to misquote me in order to invent things that I said that I did not. (deleting 'US liberals from whom' - oh yeah, I forgot, you aren't one.)

Because you continue your personal political attack; may I suggest that you try a forum like www.anncoulter.com for that - this is supposed to be about a film and it's become clear that you can't control yourself to stay on topic.

reply

Each 'first off,' is is intended to be the first off on the point I am addressing. Nothing more.

Stay on Topic? Your entire basis’ for mentioning American involvement are flawed. Period. That is really the end of story. Your desire was trolling to get people upset. Nothing more. The entire premise of yours is based on that single fact. The world hates America. Foreign made films should pay homage to the US. They owe us that much. Then, YOU start spewing forth historical fiction. When it is debunked you want to wrap yourself in a flag to protect yourself from a shoddy premise only to then yank it off only to start flag waving How America This and Bush That.

And then to actually expect to have your criticisms taken seriously? On that basis?

You only return to troll more. Trolls do return. Constantly.

Here is a decent definition of a Troll.

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.


You think you have shown some courage or something like moral fortitude for returning? Noble? Heroic? Nope.

Naive? I been online for 6 years. Been dealing with trolls long enough to recognize them, even though by a really good one I can still get hooked if he plays it just right at the right time. With you it took a while. I was not sure just how much of your own bunk you actually believed. I know what a troll is. My God, you even want to fight about what a troll IS? What does that say? Sheeesh. Naive? Nice comeback BTW.

But from the beginning what I mainly wanted point out was that you just simply cannot grasp that facts of history. Period. Neither history made, or being made, seems to be something you had bothered to research before you started spouting off. So your claim that America should have been mentioned because of historical imperatives is without point.

That it should be mentioned due to artistic reasons had no validity at all. To 'show' something? Simply no reason. Everyone easily debunked that idea. Pointless to discuss further.

So it leaves you with nothing more than your own bald-faced admission you were just trying to start crap.

Now, again I reiterate, if you think my pointing out very simple facts, about history and yourself, are attacks, I could easily show you the difference. But what is the point? You’d just enjoy it. Which is why I tend to not attack. My writing isn’t even for you. It is for everyone else but. I don't like you. Why would I bother with you personally when I don't like you? Unless it was in person of course. That is different.

So, all in all, for you to claim that your’s is a serious critique of the film, based on your premises, deserves any ridicule it gets. And I WAS embarrassed for you. I honestly was. but not any more. Now I feel something akin to a blend of contempt and weariness.

I'm not a liberal. I'm middle of the road since I do not tend to be an extremist like you make an effort to appear to be. That is a fact as well. Is it a fact you really have a bridge for sale? Or does that have about as much truth as the rest of your posts here?

Again. Two words.

History
Book

Edit:Typos
Edit:Content
Edit:Extra


No, I change my mind. I have a much better set of two words for you. At least from my perspective. Very pleasing ones to me.

And unless you wish to pick this discussion up off the forum elsewhere, which you are more than welcome to, they are my final two words to you.
Good Bye


reply

by - mental_nomad on Wed Jan 4 2006 13:01:31

Each 'first off,' is is intended to be the first off on the point I am addressing. Nothing more.

Stay on Topic? Your entire basis’ for mentioning American involvement are flawed. Period. That is really the end of story. Your desire was trolling to get people upset. Nothing more. The entire premise of yours is based on that single fact. The world hates America. Foreign made films should pay homage to the US. They owe us that much. Then, YOU start spewing forth historical fiction. When it is debunked you want to wrap yourself in a flag to protect yourself from a shoddy premise only to then yank it off only to start flag waving How America This and Bush That.

And then actually expect to have your criticisms taken seriously? On that basis?

You only return to troll more. Trolls do return. Constantly.

Here is an excellent definition of a Troll.

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.


You think you have shown some courage or something returning? Noble? Heroic? Nope.

Naive? I been online for 6 years. Been dealing with trolls long enough to recognize them. I know what a troll is. Seems you do not. So I provided you with a common definition. My God, you even want to fight about what a troll is? What does that say? Sheeesh. Naive? Nice comeback BTW.

But from the beginning what I mainly wanted point out was that you just simply cannot grasp that facts of history. Period. Neither history made, or being made, seems to be something you had bothered to research before you started spouting off. So your claim that America should have been mentioned because of historical imperatives is without point.

That it should be mentioned due to artistic reasons had no validity at all. Simply none.

So it leaves you with nothing more than your own bald faced admission you were just trying to start crap.

Now, again I reiterate, if you think me pointing out very simple facts, about history and yourself, as attacks, I could easily show you the difference. But what is the point? You’d just enjoy it. Which is why I do not attack. My writing isn’t even for you. It is for everyone else. I don't like you. Why would I bother with you personally since I don't like you? Unless it was in person of course. That is different.

So, all in all, for you to claim that your’s is a serious critique of the film on your premises deserves any ridicule it gets. And I was embarrassed for you. I honestly was. but not any more. Now I feel something akin to a blend of contempt and weariness.

I'm not a liberal. I'm middle of the road since I do not tend to be an extremist. That is a fact as well. Is it a fact you really have a bridge for sale? Or does that have about as much truth as the rest of your posts here?

Again. Two words.

History
Book

Edit

No, I change my mind. I have a much better set of two words for you. Very pleasing ones to me.

And unless you wish to pick this discussion up off the forum elsewhere, which you are more than welcome to, they are my final two words to you.
Good Bye

reply

[deleted]

eh?

reply

Reading your posts on this thread is it the end of the world for you because Stephen Poliakoff had the audacity to not even mention the Americans?

reply

No but, reading the replies in this thread, apparently my audacity to raise such a question appears to have stopped the planet for some people.

reply

The way you've responded to people who question your postings made me ask that. So what if there wasn't a line mentioning the Americans involvement in WW1. They did not enter the war until December 1917 and then the war ended in November 1918. If there was any mention of American involvement by the British it probably was done in cabinet meetings where Prince John was not present.

reply

Considering how the movie concerned the total inefficacy of royalty by then with their concept that England 'adored them' as much as Johnny thought his parents adored him. They shut him away from view and England basically did the same thing with them. So, here's this other country that rejected royalty to the point of going to war to be free of them a long time ago - returning to help. A line indicating their surprise at that happening would have been precious. I really don't care if it had been the Bahamas who beat the British for independence and returned in WW1 instead of the USA; I just think it would have fit in. Right or wrong, that it wasn't mentioned raised my suspicion and was my point of conjecture to ask the question. That what is was... a question.

reply

So because the United States did not get one line then this movie is ruined for you? I thought that this movie was about Prince John "The Lost Prince" not the U.S. involvement in WW1. As for the royal family putting him away that happened all the time a century ago. The disabled were sent away to homes and at least Prince John was well cared for and loved and was treated 1000 times better than most of the disabled were then.

reply

<<So because the United States did not get one line then this movie is ruined for you?>>

DID YOU READ MY ORIGINAL POST OF ALMOST ONE YEAR AGO???????


...... I enjoyed this screenplay very much from the fine direction to the sets and costumes to the scripting. Kudos to the cast that all performed with excellence, (and I was especially disarmed by Miranda Richardson as Queen Mary if you needed to know). Certainly it afforded educated insight of the challenges, and the resulting successes and failures, of a precariously inept royalty during that period that I would have not otherwise ever known of let alone considered.

However, after I dried my eyes and the credits were rolling, .......




<< The disabled were sent away to homes and at least Prince John was well cared for and loved and was treated 1000 times better than most of the disabled were then.>>

'Loved'? Not by them!

reply

Yes I did but you act personally insulted that the U.S. did not get even one line. Jeez, it was made by the British not the Americans. As for Prince John himself he was loved by Lalla and his brother Prince George. So because he was sent to a house at Sandringham where he was happy and well cared for it means that he was not loved. As I said in an earlier post he was treated 1000 times better than the disabled where treated in the early 20th century. 99% of the disabled then where sent to horrific asylums where they were forgotten. At least Prince John was not forgotten by his own family.

reply

Seriously, kid, the King and Queen were NOT out of it. They were fully in knowledge about what's going on around in the world of their time. Partly that was why they wanted to change their name. They knew they were beginning to become unpopular among their subject. And they really felt a sense of duty and responsibility and wish to play some of their part in helping to keep the nation together. For example, there was the scene showing the bloody Queen of England herself bending over to collect metalware to be made into armaments.

In short, no, America was simply INCONSEQUENTIAL as a player, and adding a line like that would be out-of-place, weird, and would either have passed the audience by or, if they'd pick up on it, go 'eh? wtf?'.

I'm glad you liked the mini-series. Proves Stephen Poliakoff was a *brilliant* storyteller.

reply

ok, i realise that this post/topic is over now, as no
one has been on it in 6 months, but i read most peoples comments (something i rarely do on long topics) and found it very entertaining.... so thank you everyone.

i just need to point something out to moke (though i'm sure he is long gone from this board by now): have you not noticed that not a single person - not one - has agreed with you in the slightest bit. Usually on controversial matters like this its half and half on an argument or 60/40.... here it is you against everyone. I mean the English people don't agree with you, the other europeans don't agree with you, the americans don't agree with you.... no body does - perhaps that could suggest that you stop obsessing over you own view point and change your opinion, or at leas be open to the idea of changing it....

i'm not going to comment on the actual topic in question (America being mentioned in the film) as i am fully against the writer of this board...the US was irrelevent to the story, and many completley over estimate their input in the wars at all... stop putting the existence of countries down to american's intervention! your not that important.

last thing.... it is seriously refreshing to see that there are americans (or at least one for sure) who know their history - more than me to be honest - and are actually able to criticise their own country! i can happily criticise my country, nice to see americans can too :) some point on here were really good and pretty interesting.

fantastic film
stupid topic
america was wiselt left out of this film (though i han't even considerd the fact it was prior to reading this topic)

have fun :)

"3...2...1...[BANG]....You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off."


reply

Thank you.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]