and 16 % of the Iraqis living in the Benelux voted for the communists, what is your point? By the way, in Ukraine Communist party 20%, Bulgaria ex-communists 31.1% (a coalition, left wing) Russian Federation 13.3 % (lots of votes went to the Rodina party, check the website, isn't quite, how should i put it, capitalist), Do you think it is that hard to figure it out? Isolationist.
Check out the People's Daily official newspaper of the Communist Party, guess which nation has a union in Wall Mart, hehehe. Marx made predictions, true, true, so did Adam Smith, and John Locke, neither of these predictions came through, he also stated repeated that he wasn't a fortune teller, all his "predictions" are quite vague. strange, i thought he mostly talked about class warfare in history (ever heard of historical materialism?) he even admitted quite frankly that the fall of the Roman Empire had very little to do with class warfare (my prof. of Greek and Roman history said that), oooh, i see what you mean by "out dated sources", lol, maybe he used 19th century figures, oh dear lord, that child eating bastard. Are we pulling in the personal life of Marx? fine, it would have been smarter to said a little bit about the Judenfrage, lol, but anyway, seems the opinions of intellectuals differ very much, some said he was a begger and lived of Engels his money gifts, the other like you say, said he was a wealthy bastard, who lived on the money of his wife Jenny (who was aristorcrat, but was fairly kicked out by her father), maybe he ate those two deadborn babies, no? or that was because he could afford 9 doctors, yes, that is probably it. Anyway, if Marx was a poor bugger, he wouldn't have been able to read now would he? For who do you think he wrote in the Neue Reihnische Zeitung? Workers who couldn't read? of course not, for Liberals, left wing liberals, not the right wing liberals as in Europe. i wonder if you wet yourself if you realize U.S. stands for united STATES. I think i know your problem, you search for "Marxists economists" you should search for "Marxian Economists". so those 40 million americans under the poverty line are swinging with joy and feasting in the streets of New York, right, think for yourself, why do you think the pauperization (or whatever its called in English) never truly came (it did came, just look at the figures of the 19th century, if they would have continued at the same pace, it would have caused serious problems), ever heard of something called the Labour movement? Unions? Socialists? no? Das Kapital (or The Capital) is and still is an accurate description of the basics of capitalism, even capitalists themself find it a very useful book. It doesn't predict the future, i think you are confusing Marx with Ayn Rand, lol.
A few things that strengthen my belief that you are not who you claim to be:
1) appears Engels never existed (check the authors of the Communist Manifesto)
2) no word about the Social Democratic movement which is very succesfull, but very low in marxist ideology, but still, finds its base and beginning in the ideology of scientific socialism (Bernstein is a git)
3) It seems Marx was a modern Nostradamus and wrote nothing else but silly predictions
4) You ... zealously tried to tie strings to a movie about silly little ANTZ,
5) Total disregard of the rest of the world.
6) Attacks on Marx his personal life.
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Avanzander
19 years ago
Your first big mass of text, which I guess you might call an "argument", is convoluted and unorganized. Perhaps you should take an English class and learn how to formulate an effective argument, organize your points, and deliver a grammatically sound message. But oh well.
On the subject of Karl Marx, one absolutely has the right to attack his personal character. Any effective leader of a new movement must exemplify and represent the ideals which he or she stands for. Karl was the exact opposite of the "proletariat" and the fact that his life alone contradicts his Communist message undermines his arguments. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, and Mother Teresa are fine examples of leaders who not only preached their message but ALSO lived it. To use a cliché, Karl "talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk." Why follow a leader who doesn't live his message?
You love to bring up the point of American poverty but you fail to understand that that American poor, by comparison, are the wealthiest "lower-class" in the world. In America, Great Britain, Japan, and other capitalist nations, society as a whole enjoys the benefits of a strong economy, unlike the former Soviet Union and modern North Korea where everyone was/is poor (except for those who were/are in charge).
Now, on to your final six points...
1) Of course I know who Friedrich Engels is. However, Karl is seen world-wide as the founder of Communism, NOT Engels. That is why I choose to focus of Marx rather than his counterpart. There is a reason it's called "Marxism" and not "Engelsims".
2) The Social Democratic movement is not the same as Communism. Modern European
Socialism still allows for a somewhat free market, free trade, and private property. Communism forbids the free market, free trade, and private property.
3) Although Karl was no "prophet", he absolutely can be held accountable for his predictions of class warfare and the "rise of the proletariat". His predictions have been PROVEN FLASE by HISTORY. Any social, political, or economic historian understands and accepts the fact that Karl was completely wrong. His false predictions, like his life, undermine his argument. Because Karl's predictions are indeed dead wrong, I find it much harder to embrace his ideology of Communism.
4) Of course I zealously "tied strings" to the movie Antz, this is, after all, THE INTERNET MOVIE DATABASE and a forum for movie discussion. I enjoy the movie Antz because it is an entertaining movie yet digs deeper than the average kid flick by portraying the triumph of the individual over an oppressive regime. I am also an artist and I love and appreciate the animation of the film
5) You seem to think I have totally disregarded the rest of the world, however, it is you who have disregarded the rest of the world. You have conveniently failed to respond to my point about China evolving from a Communist state into a modern Capitalist one, and the economic growth and luxuries associated with that evolution. You also seem to ignore the point that people immigrate to the United States, NOT NORTH KOREA or other Communist states. You also conveniently disregard history by ignoring the fact that people in the Soviet Union desperately tried to leave and come to the USA or other free nations. My Bulgarian and Ukrainian friends are perfect examples of people who fled the Soviet Union. Why? Because it sucked living in a Communist nation.
6) See the second paragraph.
Quit desperately trying to cling to a failed socio-political ideology and accept the fact that people are better off and happier under a free-market, capitalist democracy.
By the way, you never answered my question about why you called me an Ant-Semite. Conveniently leaving that one out too, eh?
Where are you from anyway? France? You sound like a Frenchman.
"Get busy living, or get busy dying"
-The Shawshank Redemption
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JJ_Gittes
19 years ago
I believe he's from the UK, actually, altho feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, MD.
Sock it unto others, as you would have them sock it to you
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mathieudesteur
19 years ago
Actually there is something called Utopian Communism, you might have heard of a person called Rousseau or the political organisation of the Fabians (you know, H.G. Wells etc.)?, Marx is not the "founder" of communism, but he did put it in a scientific motion (that is why we have something called Social history, etc. even my Medieval professor cannot get out of the fact there is something like Classes, something, Marx did instigate and put into mainstream sociological education). Social Democracy has nothing to do with communism? strange, perhaps you want to know, Lenin was in the Social Democratic party, and also Marx, the first international was totally made out of Social Democratic Persons, if you want to talk in a historical context, god, do it, same goes for these Social Democratic parties, although they follow the Bernstein way now, the basics still are class, production methods, the redistribution of capital, also depends on what country you are speaking, no? look outside the US for a change.
You seem to neglect what i have written about those elections (by the way, the JCP has 4 million voters, twat). Please, do learn some history. (might i add, those figures of American Poverty ... those are calculated by the UN, which is constant for all nations.). Do i have to repeat the fact that 13.3% of the Russians vote communist? 20 % of the Ukrainian Parliament are seated by Communists, and dear god, might i add 60% of all russians think Iosef Stalin made a positive impact on History, cut the BS and talk to some russians who aren't too chickensh*t to leave their country (www.sovmusic.ru, hehehe).
No, i didn't call you an anti-semite, i'm talking about someone, with no doubt, you have his book.
7) personal attacks on me.
8) keep repeating the same thing over and over, like you didn't fully read my "arguments", by god, read it and let it sink in (seems you only read the points).
Not France nor UK, somewhere ... in the middle.
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JJ_Gittes
19 years ago
In the middle...my next guess is The Netherlands, then.
Sock it unto others, as you would have them sock it to you
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Avanzander
19 years ago
A utopian society is an impossibility in a corrupt world like ours, and anyone who thinks a utopian society is attainable is only fooling himself. Human nature won't allow it.
In response to the people who vote Communist in the countries you mentioned, I would be willing to wager that a majority of those people are young voters who lack a historical perspective and who are, ultimately, misguided just like you.
If the anti-Semite you are referring to is Adolf Hitler, I actually have read "Mein Kampf", as should you and everyone else. I disagree with it in it's entirety, however, we must understand the evils of tyrannical despotism. I read Mein Kampf for the same reason I read The Communist Manifesto...in order to know and understand evils in the world.
I'm not attacking you personally; I'm attacking your foolish and misguided ideologies and your argument structure.
I repeat certain points because they are worth repeating and you don't seem to soak them in. Think about it, it makes sense. People want to be in the USA, not North Korea.
I really don't feel like continuing this debate because, when it comes to certain people like you, words fall of deaf ears and, frankly, it's not worth my time.
Finally, I'm not afraid to let people know where I'm from. I love the USA and am proud to live here. You seem to be ashamed of your country and are afraid to let us know what it is. Why don't you display your European pride and tell us where you are from?
"Get busy living, or get busy dying"
-The Shawshank Redemption
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mathieudesteur
19 years ago
I'm proud of the worker's movement to which i belong, i hold my left fist up and sing the Internationale with zeal and pride, no nation nor state binds me, but for the administration, hehehe, it's Belgium. The majority of those voters are older people (like in Germany, where they wouldn't have pulled down the wall if they knew how much it would cost them, that is capitalism for you, 25 % in East Germany,Auferstanden aus Ruinen Und der Zukunft zugewandt,Laß uns dir zum Guten dienen,Deutschland, einig Vaterland mwhoehahahaha).
). No, the anti-semite is not Adolf Hitler, are you comparing Mein Kampf with the communist manifesto? dear, i hope you read Mein Kampf well, maybe you should have gained some insight on where anti-communists gets their great minds.
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mikesnaps
19 years ago
Congratulations Avanzander you have completely deflated and debunked mathiedeuter's arguments ( if you can call his convoluted rantings an argument)
I, like you, realise that to reason with someone who clings to this warped ideology is akin to hitting your head against a brick wall. It's OK, we won the cold war. Communism is by and large dead. Let the poor fool have his commie fantasy - The loser seriously needs a life.
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