MovieChat Forums > Contact (1997) Discussion > The aliens would not have used Pi. It's...

The aliens would not have used Pi. It's a human convention.

posted 11 years ago by nielw
52 replies | jump to latest

The only reason we use Pi = 3.1415926 is because the first person to calculate it did so using the diameter of the circle. It's defined as Circumference/diameter. In other words, it's how many times the diameter of the circle fits into the circumference of the circle. But the earlier humans who discovered this didn't realize that the diameter is not the fundamental measurement of the circle. It's just easier to measure...hence we get stuck with a convention of Pi = 3.14. And since we do all our math with the radius (the truly fundamental measurement of a circle), Pi only represents half the circle in radians. If we used a unit of diametans, then Pi would actually make some sense.

Surely an advanced, intelligent race of aliens would have defined Pi (or "blork" as they would surely call it) as 6.2831...

Ever notice how 2*Pi shows up in all the math equations? Because you have to have 2 of them to get all the way around the circle. Ever notice how 1/4 of the circle is 1/2 Pi? However, if Pi had been defined as 6.2831 (as Euler occasionally used), 1/4 of the circle would be 1/4 Pi. It's a better convention. History is full of these kinds of "mistakes". We just recognize them, and move on.

I find it hard to believe aliens would be using Pi, unless they were intentionally telling us something about half a circle, instead of a full circle.

A lot of people are recognizing the problem now, but there seems to be too much cultural momentum to fix it.

If this topic interests you, please read these articles.

"Pi is Wrong!" - Bob Palais
http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.pdf
"What really worries me is that the first thing we broadcast to the cosmos to demonstrate our 'intelligence' is 3.14. I am a bit concerned about what the lifeforms who receive it will do after they stop laughing at the creatures who must rarely question orthodoxy."

http://www.tauday.com
Lots of proofs why Pi is not the right circle constant.

[–] HowYaLikeDemApplesWill 9 years ago

Well, they wouldn't have spoken English either....but they did in the apparition of Ellie's dad.

Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

[–] bigbeataudio 9 years ago

True, but this is well explained in the book. When the five travellers arrived, they all slept on the beach, it is revealed that the aliens extracted information from their heads. Also they had been watching a lot of tv etc for over 25 years. A race that advanced would have "easily" worked out our dialects.

[–] zenbudda 9 years ago

...yeah but an intelligent race that could come up with 2pi would also recognize pi/2. it's that easy.

[–] thisnameinuse 9 years ago

This has obviously sparked a great thread here.

I think one of the most important notions to realize is that Pi is not, as you originally said, a human invention.

It is a mathematical discovery. Pi as an existential number referencing the relationship of various measurements of a circle technically existed prior to humanity even making its debut upon the face of the Earth.

————
CUCUMBER WATER FOR CUSTOMER ONLY!

[–] ex250 9 years ago

Jeez, I had to read through this whole thread to get to the final post where the correct answer could be found. Pi is in fact a physical/mathematical property of the universe and is not only limited to circles but can be found in other fields as well such as statistics. The fact that "aliens" would use Pi is not the question, the question is how would they know to use a base-ten number system. While Pi is a universal constant, the base number system being used is completely arbitrary, therefore it's even more strange that prime numbers would hold some sort of universal meaning when they are completely dependent on the numbering system being used.

Promise me, no matter how hopeless things get, keep on trying, OK? Keep coming chin-up, OK?

[–] Kevmo 8 years ago

You're missing the point on the pi/tau thing. The point is that "2*pi"="tau" is the fundamental constant. We kind of cocked up by latching onto 3.14 and calling it pi, rather than latching onto 6.28 and calling it tau.

Every equation that uses "pi" comes out more elegantly if you used "tau" instead. (And for the simple area of a circle, 1/2*tau*r^2 is more elegant than pi*r^2 - powers of two naturally belong with halves).

Thus it would have made more (mathematical) sense to be broadcasting on "hydrogen * tau", which would be "hydrogen * 2 * pi" in our normal terminology. Not sure if the actual radio frequency there is still suitable though...

And where did the aliens ever use base 10? The primes were counted out manually in pulses (ie base 1).

Primes are not remotely dependent on the numbering system. 13 is as prime in base 10 as it is as "D" in base 16 or "1101" in binary or counted out as 1111111111111.

Indeed, it's most obvious in that base 1 as pulsed out: there's no way to divide 1111111111111 evenly, apart from as just "1111111111111" itself, or breaking it up totally into 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.

Whereas 12 (111111111111) can be broken up lots of other ways ways: 111111,111111 or 111,111,111,111 or 1111,1111,1111 or 11,11,11,11,11,11.

Nothing to do with the number system.

[–] ex250 8 years ago

And where did the aliens ever use base 10? The primes were counted out manually in pulses (ie base 1).

The prime numbers were counted out as 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13....101. That sequence of prime integers are only found in base-10. If a different base were used, ie. binary, that sequence of numbers would've been impossible as primes.

Promise me, no matter how hopeless things get, keep on trying, OK? Keep coming chin-up, OK?

[–] t_3 8 years ago

btw, along the prime-pulsing signal the aliens sent a massive plan for a wormhole-generator(...) to be man-made.

in other words the signal was of course coded to be read and understand by 10-finger humans, don't you think?