MovieChat Forums > Contact (1997) Discussion > The aliens would not have used Pi. It's...

The aliens would not have used Pi. It's a human convention.

posted 11 years ago by nielw
52 replies | jump to latest

The only reason we use Pi = 3.1415926 is because the first person to calculate it did so using the diameter of the circle. It's defined as Circumference/diameter. In other words, it's how many times the diameter of the circle fits into the circumference of the circle. But the earlier humans who discovered this didn't realize that the diameter is not the fundamental measurement of the circle. It's just easier to measure...hence we get stuck with a convention of Pi = 3.14. And since we do all our math with the radius (the truly fundamental measurement of a circle), Pi only represents half the circle in radians. If we used a unit of diametans, then Pi would actually make some sense.

Surely an advanced, intelligent race of aliens would have defined Pi (or "blork" as they would surely call it) as 6.2831...

Ever notice how 2*Pi shows up in all the math equations? Because you have to have 2 of them to get all the way around the circle. Ever notice how 1/4 of the circle is 1/2 Pi? However, if Pi had been defined as 6.2831 (as Euler occasionally used), 1/4 of the circle would be 1/4 Pi. It's a better convention. History is full of these kinds of "mistakes". We just recognize them, and move on.

I find it hard to believe aliens would be using Pi, unless they were intentionally telling us something about half a circle, instead of a full circle.

A lot of people are recognizing the problem now, but there seems to be too much cultural momentum to fix it.

If this topic interests you, please read these articles.

"Pi is Wrong!" - Bob Palais
http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.pdf
"What really worries me is that the first thing we broadcast to the cosmos to demonstrate our 'intelligence' is 3.14. I am a bit concerned about what the lifeforms who receive it will do after they stop laughing at the creatures who must rarely question orthodoxy."

http://www.tauday.com
Lots of proofs why Pi is not the right circle constant.

[–] Monk_Drunk 11 years ago

They were probably just using a convention we would be immediately familiar with. Baby steps for the baby civilization, I guess.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] elisazy35 11 years ago

it just reminds me of drawing a circle with javascript....

[–] pking-2 11 years ago

If the aliens are so advanced and smartypants...then they figured out that it was quite likely for less advanced folks to land upon pi not 2pi as the base unit. As you say, it's easier for dullards like early mathematicians to measure.

So, if species universe-wide keep figuring out math using similar patterns of behavior, which is what is implied by the whole "let's use math to communicate because we all share it but develop it separately" construct...then species keep doing the stupid "pi not 2pi" shortcut.

So the smartypants aliens figured this out and talked to the stupid species using dumbed down math, and it worked. They chose pi because they figured we'd choose pi. Even if they evolved beyond pi in their math textbooks.

Duh.

Same reason when you want to establish rappor with a toddler you go "hi! hi! Want a cookie" with a smile. Because toddlers tend to "get it." Not because that's your communications limit; to other smartypants adults you instead say "Hello vice president Chalmers. Let's get together for a cup of coffee, soon." Using the latter form with a toddler would result in toddler disinterest or confusion, rather than response.

The smartypants aliens want response from us more than they want to impress us with their advanced smartness.

Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm reader.

[–] avortac 8 years ago

First of all, is THAT what you say to toddlers? You immediately offer them cookies with some creepy smile? Oh... kay...

Second of all,..

"Let's get together for a cup of coffee, soon."

.. how exactly is this any more intellectually more advanced? It's the same thing, just with a different substance. What is it with this planet's denizens and food?

How about something like this..

To a toddler: "Hey. What did you do today?"

To an adult: "Hey. Do you think Plato's allegory of the cave accurately depicts the attitudes of modern people?"

Cookies and coffee.. sheesh!

[–] pking-2 8 years ago

That works too. We agree.

Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm reader.

[–] grumpy_otter 11 years ago

Pi R squared doesn't use 2*pi.

[–] nielw 10 years ago

You are correct. The 1/2 gets absorbed when you don't use the integral form of the area of the circle. 1/2 Tau R^2 is the quadratic form for the integral for area of the circle. Notice it looks like 1/2 gt^2, and other familiar physics formulas. 1/2 Tau is Pi, sure... But when you lose the 1/2, you lose the common integral form. This form actually tells us something about how it was derived. We can memorize formulas all day long in school, but that doesn't mean they make the most sense in that form.

He explains it much better in the article at tauday.com.

Mirror inspector is a job I could really see myself doing.

[–] jaystarstar 11 years ago

Occam's Razor: Keep it simple, stupid.

Pi represents a fundamental dimensional proportion. Tau represents another, and also happens to equal 2Pi.

There is no privileged or preferred status to radius over diameter.

Thus the simplest rendition of the proportional relationship -- the unitary designation of 1 -- would be the 'default' version to an alien intelligence placing utmost importance upon simplicity.

Of course if Terrans made broadcasts to the cosmos indicating the value of Tau, a superintelligent species would recognize this demonstrated a facility with mathematics.

As they would with pi. Only not with the multiplier, x2.

================

4) You ever seen Superman $#$# his pants? Case closed.

[–] LukeVaderJr 10 years ago

This.

Make things as simple as they need to be - but no simpler. (I think Einstein said that)

In pure numeric terms, with Pi, ratio cannot be reduced any further. This is true whether your starting point is radius or the circumference.

Using Pi rather than 2*Pi (or Tau or a number that can still be halved perfectly) actually communicates superior intelligence due to its inherent simplicity.

So, although there is a good argument to be made for whichever convention is superior (tau or pi) for carrying out computations based on the "circle constant", when it comes to expressing that ratio as a number (albeit an irrational one), it is manifestly evident that the number Pi is the simplest version of that constant ratio.

Take the case for Tau to an engineering or computational math forum - there is merit in using it to teach, etc. Not here.

Dum dum dum, da da da, da da daaaah...

[–] redsmurph 10 years ago

People still argue for both :).

That said, the movie audience knows about Pi but not about Tau, e etc. Note how they had to describe prime numbers etc.

[–] Thrillseeker303 10 years ago

Maybe they knew about our own conception of Pi (through radiowaves) and sent back our own information about it, knowing it would lead us to believe it had to be sent by intelligent life?

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