MovieChat Forums > Sleepers (1996) Discussion > Really. What are the odds?

Really. What are the odds?

posted 8 years ago by wordsatplaytoday
11 replies | jump to latest

That two of the kids just happen to grow up to be killers and gangsters and that the guard who abused them just happens to be in the same establishment as they are and another of the abused kids just happen to grow up to be an assistant DA who gets assigned the very same court case?
I know there are coincidences in life and truth is stranger than fiction and it's a small world etc, etc.
But this one is really reaching if they want us to believe all this could have really happened.
And besides, I'm sure that the DA's office would have done research and would have seen the connection between the DA and the gangsters history as kids.

Damn, I'm good.

[–] mikeyg24 8 years ago

Well as to your last point the movie specifically mentions that juvenile records are destroyed after 7 years so there was nothing to research.

As to your first point I disagree. You're assuming that John and Tommy turned to a life of crime specifically because of Wilkinson's. I would argue that's not the case necessarily. Your post hinges on the old nature versus nurture debate. Are we good or bad by nature or does one's environment affect their behaviour. In short a quick investigation into Catholic clerical abuse would reveal that the victims are obviously disturbed but have differed in that some became criminals, substance abusers, CEO's, family men etc.

24/04/1916

[–] wordsatplaytoday 7 years ago

As to your first point I disagree. You're assuming that John and Tommy turned to a life of crime specifically because of Wilkinson's. I would argue that's not the case necessarily. Your post hinges on the old nature versus nurture debate. Are we good or bad by nature or does one's environment affect their behaviour. In short a quick investigation into Catholic clerical abuse would reveal that the victims are obviously disturbed but have differed in that some became criminals, substance abusers, CEO's, family men etc.

I have no idea why John and Tommy became killers.
My point is that they just happen to be killers when there are so many other paths their lives could have taken.
Like why weren't they truck drivers, factory workers, janitors or any other number of blue collar jobs?
It would have made it seem plausible for this to be based on a true story if they had other jobs and then went back to where Nokes lives, follow him around and then kill him.

Humans are not the only species on earth.
We just act like it.

[–] UncleJunior28 8 years ago

I agree, just the odds of Nokes showing up in that restaurant would be pretty high.

And when Ferguson takes the stand, wouldn't he put it together who John, Tommy and Michael were?

[–] mtlddrms 8 years ago

Ferguson only started remembering John and Tommy when he was cornered and forced to think back on the abuses. I'm sure he doesn't even remember Michael was one of them. Him, Nokes, and the other guards abused so many kids over the years that they were nothing but toys for them to play with. They wouldn't remember any names.

[–] MuleDeer 8 years ago

I don't think it's a leap at all to think two of the kids would grow up to be criminals. Happens all the time to those who do time. Also don't think it's a stretch they would run into him in a bar/restaurant. Also, it is said Michael lobbied to be prosecutor on the case, so that part is explained.

I do have a hard time, though, believing that the guard who confessed on the stand would voluntarily appear as a character witness at a trial without recognizing the names of the defendants and the prosecutor as those he had abused just 13 years earlier.

[–] flyingeddies 8 years ago

I can't imagine those guards would ever recognize a name or a face of those kids. There were too many over the years. It would be plausible if they only abused those four. Then they MIGHT remember their names. Maybe. But I'm thinking the guards in this situation plowed many many fields.

[–] redban (5203) 7 years ago

At the restaurant, Kevin Bacon's character remembered John and Tommy when they told him their names. Why wouldn't the other guard remember likewise?

[–] mtlddrms 8 years ago

The assisstant DA wasn't randomly assigned to the case. He arranged to take it as part of his overall plan to expose the guards. There was a small story arc about his life being on the line because he aimed to prosecute his friends.

[–] shawnc101 8 years ago

They said Nokes was working guarding money (bank or armored car?). That would have put him in the city all day.

[–] wordsatplaytoday 7 years ago

Just way too many coincidences and other things that fall perfectly into place to help these guys get away with vengeful murder.

Like another guard becomes a corrupt cop and one of the abused kids grows up to be an investigative reporter who digs up dirt on him.
And another ex-guard has a mob debt that another mob gets to take over so they can murder him.

It's all in fantasy land and guys who do such horrible things to kids get away with it all the time.
We only hear of the ones who are caught.
And for somehow all of the ex-guards to get caught? Nuh-uh. Very, very Doubtful.
Which leads me to think this is more of a work of fiction and none of it happened.

Humans are not the only species on earth.
We just act like it.

[–] Wuchak (8116) 5 years ago

Just way too many coincidences and other things... to help these guys get away with vengeful murder

It wasn't murder, but rather just execution. Nokes & his cronies worked for the justice system as guards and had been getting away with pedophilia & severe child abuse for years. The justice system failed all these boys so John & Tommy made sure justice was done when the opportunity presented itself. Payback's a biyatch.

As far as John & Tommy running into Nokes 13 years later at a restaurant in New York City, sure, it was a coincidence, but it wasn't exactly anything unheard of since it was in the same state and the Big Apple is the state's biggest center of attention. Besides, haven't we all been hours from home -- or even on the other side of the country -- and ran into someone you know? It happens all the time.