Alex Dead? - Shallow Grave (1995) Discussion

[–] canleystoobrick 17 years ago

Alex is so dead that he moves and talks just like any other obvious corpse!!!!! Have any of you chumps who think that Alex has shuffled of his mortal ever seen the movie? He's been pinned to the floor by Juliet and is unable to change his position, but he's very far from dead.

reply

[–] Fowler_3000 17 years ago

He's not dead.

He wins!!! - don't you get it???

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Jeremy-124 17 years ago

Exactly -- all the points I and others have made. Case closed.

reply

[–] senpaidude 14 years ago

He didn't do anything really smart to get the money under the floor. There was enough satisfaction for the viewers in fact that the woman didn't get the money. Nobody did. Dead or alive, who cares. No money for anyone. If he's alive, the scene was simply very bad.

reply

[–] Nakrophile 17 years ago

You should learn not to take everything at face value. Having said that, you may be correct and we're just reading too much into it, but IMO there are equally good arguements for Alex being either dead or alive.

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] facepaint 17 years ago

i'll end this right now

i viewed an interview with danny boyle in which he most derfinately stated alex is alive.

reply

[–] Jeremy-124 17 years ago

I just noticed this post. Thank you!!!!! I don't see how anyone can argue any longer that Alex was dead at the end.

reply

[–] animalsmith1 17 years ago

I personally havent seen many dead bodies, and although i understand the whole symbolism thing, its quite easy to tell, this film is very straight forward and explains everything to the viewer.

So, i would have to say, if someone has their eyes open, if they are breathing and if they are talking. They are not very likely to be dead!

I could be wrong but i dont think so!

To the other doubting questions...... They were photographing the body because its a crime scene, thats what they do.

The cops didnt seem very concerned.......... Would you be happy to see a murdered man in the kitchen?

And as to his lack of medical attention, well you obviously have no idea how long it takes an ambulance to arrive on the nhs!!!

Stop guessing, it seems very simple to me!!!!

reply

[–] Pearl_Jade 17 years ago

The most frequent argument I see for Alex's being dead is that the paramedics appear to be ignoring him; they are not administering any medical attention.

But this is not the case. When someone is impaled, the only safe place to remove the sharp object (in this case the kitchen knife) is in a hospital operating room. The paramedics CANNOT remove the knife at the scene or else Alex will bleed to death. The knife is what is stanching the blood flow.

Medical protocol in this case is to administer an analgesic and to call the appropriate personnel to saw the floorboards surrounding the knife. This leaves the knife intact so that Alex, with a piece of floorboard still attached to him, can be transported to the nearest surgical ward.

It's obvious to me that the paramedics have given Alex the analgesic, which has made him drowsy. The sound of the camera rouses him (after all, David died right next to him, so the crime lab can't help but get Alex in the picture). Everyone is standing around because they are waiting for the arrival of the person(s) who will cut the floorboards.

Alex is alive. I've never understood why there is any question about this.

reply

[–] anika1 17 years ago

Of course he's not dead. He spoke, remember? Corpses don't speak. You do not continue to bleed if your heart stops, and see all of the excellent and correct info from Pearl Jade, above.

My cousin was once in an accident where he was impaled on a fence post. The ambulance personnel did in fact transport him to the hospital with the fence post still in his body, because it was keeping him from bleeding to death.

Is your horse just washing his feet, or are there darker forces at work here?

reply

[–] y_ahora_que 17 years ago

I agree Pearl Jade - I always assumed Alex lived to be misunderstood another day... And yes, paramedics don't usually remove the impaling object from a puncture wound until the hospital.

But what stresses me about this scenario is that when they cut away at the floorboards to remove Alex, the knife et al, they will no doubt find the money and start asking questions!

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!

reply

[–] Drooch (5333) 2 years ago

If this is the case then the money will be found once they remove the floorboards, which is quite a pertinent story point to omit as it undermines Alex’s victory laughter at the end.

reply

[–] darthvader1961 17 years ago

I always thought that Alex was alive, and lived to spend the money. The possibility of him being dead didn't even cross my mind.

Wars not make one great and remember that Jesus is Lord.

reply

[–] rach-mart 17 years ago

I never even considered that he was still alive.

The police completely ignore him. No, I'm not talking about the lack of medical attention. They do not treat him as if he is alive, talk to him as you would in that situation ("the ambulance is on its way", etc.)

The music and him smiling is clearly (to me) supposed to be sardonic. The man is dead and he knows that he is dead and after everything none of them got the money. Which is the entire point of the film. This plot (friends choosing money over each other and getting neither) is not new. Has anyone seen The Treasure of the Sierra Madre? Does Curtin (a mirror image of Alex) get the money?

......

reply

[–] Sawyer_Lost 17 years ago

Thank you rach-mart, good posting. I never even considered that he was still alive either, for the exact same reasons. Friends choosing money over each other and getting neither is the whole point of this story, i don't see how people can not get this. Each to his own, but to me, this was surely not an ending left to interpreation... come on people, this one is just common sense. And man, please no more of these "how can someone who is talking and breathing be alive???" postings, that's just ridiculous. Open your minds.

Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

reply

[–] baphomet1313 16 years ago

Dear everyone that actually thinks Alex is dead,
Hi. How are you? I am fine. I just wanted to write you a letter letting you know that you are all idiots! Your reasoning is that because he was ignored and photographed, that he must be dead? It was a crime scene...that is what crime scene photographers do, they take photos of crime scenes!!!! Did you ever think he was ignored because there was alot more going on then him just laying there? Perhaps the detective was doing his job, detecting!!! Not saying, "Hi. How are you? lovely day, idnit?" Other posters have made clear the fact that you do not just pull a knife out of a stabbing victim, it is a something that would be done at a hospital. "Look at all the blood" David was murdered right next to him, for *beep* sake....Of course there would be alot of blood!!!! I read a post that he couldn't have possibly survived being stabbed in the top of the lung...WHAT???? Cancer patients and donors survive with one lung all of the time...Not to mention the knife would have corked the wound...That same poster said something about the newspaper shreds that said "Triple Corpse Horror" DUH, that was refering to Hugo and the 2 thugs. Quit reading so much into things that have no base in reality. You are probably the same people that watch Evil Dead 1 and 2 and wonder, "If all that bad stuff happened, why would he go back to that cabin?" Mind-numbingly stupid, the lot of you!!!!!

Love,
Baphomet1313

reply

[–] Agent_Phillips 16 years ago

It's obvious that we're never going to all agree on this. I don't think that either group is stupid for their interpretations.

Personally, when I first watched this I thought that he was alive. I thought it was a bit odd the way the paramedics were ignoring him and the photographer was taking photos right in his face (and they are right in his face, it's not like the guy's taking photos of the general crime scene and just happening to catch him), but yeah I assumed he was still alive and that he'd 'won'.
However, now I think that it makes more dramatic sense for him to be dead - for them all to have 'lost' in the end. A sort of modern twist on The Pardoner's Tale. The talking thing could just be a sort of surreal cinematic device.
There's evidence to support either theory, I think it's really up to the viewer which they want to believe.

reply

[–] Froomshanker 16 years ago

First off I would like to make two admissions:

1. I got tired of reading everyone's comments here so I have just skipped to the end and decided to reply to Agent Phillips.
2. I have not seen Shallow Grave for a good few months.

I first saw SG when it was shown by Channel 4 (All hail to the great terrestial channel for its endless supply of great films) and was so blown away by this film that I have kept the vhs recording ever since. It is a fine tale of how material greed can destroy both friendships and minds. It is also a warning to all how one foolish choice can destroy your world, your life and your Self.

Each time I have seen it - several viewings - I have never considered that Alex was anything other than dead. I could trawl through all the reasons, but they have been covered numerous times already. I took it that when he says 'Hello Officer' it is symbolic, a voiceover akin to Kevin Spacey at the end of American Beauty. Also, when he smiles it is because he realises he is lying on the money (which I did not think would be found) and that Juliet has lost out just as much as he and David have. Again, the smiling and realisation is symbolic as he is dead.

Juliet is as good as dead as she now has no choice but to flee the country with the plane ticket she bought previously. But rather than escaping with the money, she has to leave behind her life, family, career and qualifications. She will have to start again from scratch with no gain at all.

We see David in the morgue purely to complete the triangle. The director did a reveal of David lying in the kitchen, then Juliet in her car screaming. So we finish on David who lost his mind because he pushed himself beyond the limit of what he could cope with.

But I respect other people's views on this and I like the way that people have interpreted it. Ultimately if you believe him to be dead, then he is dead. If you believe him to be alive, then he is alive. Moving on to the future, if you believe him to come back and get the money later, then he gets away with it. It is entirely up to the viewer.

I think I will go back and watch this again.

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] stephen_ross60 16 years ago

I think to whoever posted the script is correct. From the script he is definately alive but I have no doubt that Danny Boyle has changed this in the movie to Alex being dead.

reply

[–] Froomshanker 16 years ago

Thanks Stephen. You say that you have read the script. That would be an interesting comparison. What is the cheapest/ easiest way of getting sight of a copy?

Best regards, Paul.

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] Mark_Derrick 16 years ago

http://www.horrorlair.com/scripts/shallow.txt

reply

[–] coatlessdonkeys 16 years ago

You know, you shouldn't be a total jerk on something you aren't completly sure of. I am in a film class at Wayne State University and my professor actually discussed this and said he did in fact die. They chose to shoot it this way. You can still have your oppinion but you can't call others stupid when in fact you have no idea.

reply

[–] bah_humbug 16 years ago

I initially though he was dead and it was dramatic licence to have him talking and smiling but now i think he was alive. It can easily be seen either way.

reply

[–] madameduran 15 years ago

I initially though he was dead and it was dramatic licence to have him talking and smiling but now i think he was alive. It can easily be seen either way.

I agree it can be seen either way...and the multiple interpretations that people draw from a film enhances its beauty. There's no need for some of the posters here to attack others for having a different view. Disagree if you must but calling someone an "idiot" isn't conducive to discussion. It just shows up the attacker as being a rude, narrow-minded bully. I find that (North) American audiences tend to take things too literally and rely heavily on having a story neatly tied up at the end. Every single blank or ambiguous part within the plot must be explained by the movie's final scene or they feel "lost" (heaven forbid that we take risks with alternative structures in storytelling or allow one's imagination to roam). Is it any wonder, then, why so much of current Hollywood fare is so boring and stale?

I personally felt that Alex was DYING. While he was lying there, humming/mumbling to himself, he was still alive. Once the crime scene photographer arrived, I thought he was dying, ready to finally confess before taking his final breath or was possibly dead already (having the last laugh from the grave, as it were). Maybe he did survive his injuries but the cops eventually found the money underneath the floorboards after an extensive search, thus depriving Alex of his chance to escape with the cash (Boyle didn't indicate whether Alex got to keep the money, did he? That's speculation on our part). Anyway, I don't believe the ending is as "clear cut" as some people make it out to be. All I'm saying is that either argument is plausible.

reply

[–] ShutterShocked 15 years ago

Dear Baphomet1313,

The only "mind-numbingly stupid" person in this thread is yourself. Why? Because you thought Alex was alive despite the homicide photographer? No. Because you refuse to think.

Why is our culture so opposed to ambiguity? The truth is that you have no idea whether he was alive or dead. You will never know what Danny Boyle intended on the day of filming this scene. Accept this fact. Your points are shallow and thoughtless.

This scene is (intentionally OR not) ambiguous. You face ambiguity every day of your life. You will never know the intentions behind the actions carried out by the people that surround you. So why must movies merit only one interpretation? How boring would that be?

reply

[–] Froomshanker 15 years ago

Baphomet,

In your lengthy rant, the only part that made any sense or was worth reading was the reference to the newspaper cuttings of the "Triple Corpse Horror" headline. You are correct that a detective will be focused on doing his job of 'detecting'. However would it or would it not be rather useful to the case to have a key witness/ victim survive the attack rather than die on him and leave a corpse!? A paramedic team would have arrived far quicker than a SOCO photographer and they would be administering first aid asap.

Yes, people do survive on one lung after surgery. However that is after surgery and post-op care. Tell you what, prove me wrong: stab yourself in the shoulder/ chest and on lie on the floor for 6 hours. Let's see if you survive the night with your lung filling up with your own blood.

I have stated in my previous posting, you are of course entitled to your opinion. If you believe Alex to be alive, then for you Alex is alive. For others that believe Alex to be dead, then for them Alex is dead. This scene is either deliberately or unintentionally ambiguous. What I object to is your acusation that those with differing opinions are idiots then baseing your accusations on dubious evidence.

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] Drooch (5333) 2 years ago

The man is dead and he knows that he is dead and after everything none of them got the money. Which is the entire point of the film.

The smug confidence of your comment, combined with the subsequent confirmation by Danny Boyle that Alex is alive at the end, is hard not to enjoy 🤣🍻

reply

[–] fauxriginal 16 years ago

He's obviously alive

reply

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] s_forrest 16 years ago

I've just spoken to Danny Boyle. Alex lives to spend the money.

reply

[–] korbendallas-2 16 years ago

Alex is _not_ dead, and there really can't be any debate about it. Some people are saying that just because nobody's helping him, he must be dead. In reality the fact that nobody's helping him, but a guy is photographing him instead, is nothing more than just another bit of black humor this movie is full of. Actually, this should be pretty obvious to anyone who actually _watched_ the movie (as opposed to just "being there" when it was shown). Another dead giveaway (no pun intended), if you want to get technical, was already mentioned here as well: the blood is still dripping. This basically closes the issue.

reply

[–] chyna-s 15 years ago

I've just watched an interview with Danny Boyle and he was asked 'did Alex die at the end of Shallow Grave'? The answer was ...... NO, he is very much alive. He stated he had heard many people thinking he was dead but as far as he was concerned Alex lived.

-----------------------------------------------
'Stay out of Camberwick Green!' - Sam Tyler

reply

[–] Froomshanker 15 years ago

Hi there chyna-s, that's interesting. When was this interview with Danny Boyle taken/ broadcast? Is it available online to be viewed again? I would like to see it. Or is it part of the extras on the SG DVD? If Alex is meant to be alive, did Danny explain why the SOCO team weren't taking any action to make sure he stayed that way?

(I'm not having a go, I am genuinely interested in this development).

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Froomshanker 15 years ago

If Boyle/ McGregor say that he survives the assault then obviously that changes everything. Can anyone point us in the direction of these interviews if they are online? That may be what Boyle decided, but I find it a little difficult to buy this version of events for the reasons I have stated previously. The idea of the team bimbling around him while he's still alive is just too difficult to accept.

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] chyna-s 15 years ago

Arrghh, cant remember now - I think it was on one of the '35mm' film shorts that are on the sky movies channel. I came straight on here after watching it.

-----------------------------------------------
'Stay out of Camberwick Green!' - Sam Tyler

reply

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cehampson 15 years ago

Spoilers in title?? You're an idiot?????

It is a well known fact that Ann Coulter's vagina is a portal to hell...

reply

[–] Froomshanker 15 years ago

Hmm, not quite the response I was expecting. Never mind ;)

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] cehampson 15 years ago

What? That was directed at the OP. Not you. Actually, I agree with you. I too would like to find these interviews that ppl keep mentioning. But it is just so strange to that the photographer would get up in a dying man's face like that. Although it is a pretty dark, cynical film...

It is a well known fact that Ann Coulter's vagina is a portal to hell...

reply

[–] Froomshanker 15 years ago

Oh, right gotcha. Was someone moaning about the title being a spoiler? Ok, I missed that one.

SG certainly is a dark, cynical film. An incredible expose on how greed can defeat close friendships, morality and sanity. IMHO I preferred the explanation that Alex is dead as it would illustrate that all three lose everything in the end (as I explained in a previous posting). In which case, I am a little disappointed with the ending that he is alive for the following reasons:

1. The idea that he survives the night with a deep stab wound bleeding heavily (internally as well as externally), while possible is very unlikely.

2. If he is alive, the soco team would not be bimbling around him they way that they do. (Both points discussed at length previously).

3. The plotline that Alex survives to collect the money later negates the underlying message of the film that greed has destroyed them all.

However, if that is the scenario that Danny Boyle intended, that is what we should accept. Personally, I would have preferred it if he kept quiet and left it open to interpretation and discussion such as here. Such as is Rick Deckard a simulant in Blade Runner or the lyrics to American Pie (the song not the films ;) ) ?

P.S. Apart from Civilization, what else have I missed?

reply

[–] cehampson 15 years ago

Yeah. That's what I thought. But I suppose you're right. What Boyle says, goes.

It is a well known fact that Ann Coulter's vagina is a portal to hell...

reply

[–] graewil 15 years ago

I've always assumed he was still alive - just. But his survival is on a knife edge, if you'll excuse the pun.

I've posted before on the Catholic guilt in this film - and its present in this scene bigtime. He's been crucified on the floor. But Happy Heart is playing because he is about to clear his conscience, ie confess to everything and absolve himself of his guilt. The same guilt which has turned the three flatmates into greedy backstabbers and betrayers.

Of the three Alex has done nothing wrong criminally. Hasn't killed anyone, or desecrated a corpse. All he has done is the ambiguous crime of taking money that doesn't appear to belong to anyone. His confession clears his conscience with the Inspector who has the power to save him and absolve him of the crime (in law or the guilt within Alex).

But the pan down below the floorboards is a grim reminder of Alex's future (spiritually and physically) if he doesn't confess it all.

reply

[–] cehampson 15 years ago

Wow. That's really interesting. I've never thought of it that way. Seriously, that's really impressive.

It is a well known fact that Ann Coulter's vagina is a portal to hell...

reply

[–] madameduran 15 years ago

A question mark follows the thread title, leaving that plot detail up for debate. I wouldn't consider it a spoiler (however, I would expect people to realize by now that they shouldn't read the IMDB message board of a given movie in the off chance that there would be spoilers present).

reply

[–] cehampson 15 years ago

It was (and still is) on the message board headline sampler on the films main page. All threads are subject to such hence there should never be any spoiler-esque headlines. And it still blows that plot detail which is essentially the ending of the movie.

Its a well known fact that Ann
Coulters vagina is a portal to hell

Inglorious Basterds 08/21/09

reply

[–] jad1986 15 years ago

I thought the photographer and police thought he was dead until he came around. While, yes, he had been bleeding, not all of that blood is his, don't forget David lying on the floor close by. I figure his lack of sleep and sudden injury made him pass out. When the photographer starts taking photographs, he comes to. I guess this makes sense if you want to view Alex as the hero (or rather, anti-hero), as he will have to confess to the police now, and they may even find the money under the floorboards. At any rate, he wouldn't serve any serious sentence even if a judge felt he needed time in jail. (After recuperating, that is.)

However, Danny Boyle is a weird director, and sometimes does scenes that are very odd from the rest of the movie (the toilet scene in "Trainspotting," or the video game scene in "The Beach"), so maybe it could be viewed that he's dead and he's realizing that even in death, he came out on top.

I prefer to think he's alive. Maybe the new DVD coming out in a couple months will shed some light on this.

But we can all agree that Juliet was a b***h.

What we see and what we seem are but a dream. A dream within a dream.

reply