Do you have any particular disappointments with B5? - Babylon 5 (1993) Discussion

[–] alpha128 9 years ago

My biggest disappointment is how the uncertainty about renewal damaged Season 4 slightly and Season 5 significantly.

Season 4 was slightly damaged because unlike Seasons 1-3, which ended on a cliffhanger, Season 4 ended with the interesting, but anticlimactic, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". If JMS had been able to follow his original plan:

I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4 episodes forward, really. - JMS

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/084.html#JS

Although JMS wrote then about the movement of four episodes like it was no big deal, in fact it was. On the Season 5 DVD set, JMS later talked about how he began Season 5 with "no story momentum", and this was undoubtedly true.

Imagine how great Season 5 could have been if it had started with the battle against Clark and the founding of the Interstellar Alliance. Instead, Season 5 started out slow and padded because JMS had four episodes of material to fill. So we got complete filler episodes like "A View from the Gallery" and a telepath arc that dragged on about four episodes longer than it should have.

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[–] Redhooks 9 years ago

I don't disagree with your assessment, but how do we know the 4 episodes that would have had to been added to season 4 would have been good and not just filler?

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

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[–] kerryedavis 9 years ago

I think what he's saying is that season 4 would have had only 18 episodes, finishing with "Intersections in Real Time." Then season 5 starts off with the remaining 4 episodes that wound up being shown in season 4, thus meaning they make 4 fewer episodes of season 5 which means they drop the most boring ones.

Although why they couldn't have just had 18 episodes in season 5 instead of season 4, remains unexplained.

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[–] alpha128 9 years ago

I think what he's saying is that season 4 would have had only 18 episodes, finishing with "Intersections in Real Time." Then season 5 starts off with the remaining 4 episodes that wound up being shown in season 4, thus meaning they make 4 fewer episodes of season 5 which means they drop the most boring ones. - kerryedavis

Season 4 would have always had 22 episodes. But if JMS had known there was going to be a Season 5, then "Intersections in Real Time" would have been episode 422 instead of 418. There would have been four other episodes added to Season 4 to make up the difference.

But you are correct that Season 5 would have opened with the action packed battle for Earth.

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[–] alpha128 9 years ago

I don't disagree with your assessment, but how do we know the 4 episodes that would have had to been added to season 4 would have been good and not just filler? - Redhooks

We don't know for certain, but I think they would have been good. We do know that JMS had planned a 3-episode arc about the Earth/Minbari War. As it turns out, one part became the fourth season episode "Atonement" and the other two parts became the "In the Beginning" TV movie. If B5 had continued on the PTEN network for a fifth season instead of moving to TNT, then two of the four episodes would have been essentially "In the Beginning". Although JMS noted that doing it as a movie gave them a larger budget and enabled them to do it better.

You can read more about the adjustments JMS had to make here:
http://jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_From%20jms%20re:%20yr%204/5

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[–] azzajones1 8 years ago

Somewhat going off on a tangent here; I find 4.18 to be an odd choice for the season 4 final, 4.17 would've been a better cliffhanger and 4.18 would better fit as the season 5 opener.

Yesterday I thought this was solid ground, just another thing I was wrong about

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[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Somewhat going off on a tangent here; I find 4.18 to be an odd choice for the season 4 final, 4.17 would've been a better cliffhanger and 4.18 would better fit as the season 5 opener. - azzajones1

I think either 4.17 or 4.18 would have worked equally well as the Fourth Season finale. But I don't think either 4.18 or 4.19 would have worked equally well as the Fifth Season opener.

The point of the cliffhanger structure is to leave the viewer wondering how the hero is going to get out of his predicament, so they will tune in at the start of the next season to find out.

I think it's better to open with the episode where they bust our hero out of jail, rather than leave him incarcerated during the entire episode.

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[–] Wasteland_Vault_Boy 9 years ago

I remember seeing The Battle of Gorash when it 1st aired. I was thinking how cool it looked that finally starships were engaging each other on what looked like a truly planetary scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-uhi_qIgSU

Later in the series they seemed to go with the usual format of stacking as many ships as they could in the shot. And just having them stand nose to nose and slug it out. I guess because more ships and flashing lights in a shot draws more viewers. Or something.

*Edit quote to link. Stupid computer.

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[–] frosted_one 9 years ago

Byron. And that the S5 storyline obviously written for Ivanova had to be handed over to Lyta.

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[–] kerryedavis 9 years ago

I'm not sure that would have worked very well. Lyta being already a telepath, and indeed modified/improved by the Vorlons seemed pretty important as it happened, and I don't know that it could have been done very well without that. Ivanova was a latent telepath, and if they'd given her increased abilities to fight Bester via the other telepaths joining in or something, it would have made her a fresh new target for Psi Corps.

Overall, even with as many problems as it had, it seems to me to have been another of the occasions where the show actually turned out better than it would have been, in spite of JMS's plans, rather than because of them.

The worst part of it all, was Byron himself.

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[–] alpha128 9 years ago

Overall, even with as many problems as it had, it seems to me to have been another of the occasions where the show actually turned out better than it would have been, in spite of JMS's plans, rather than because of them. - kerryedavis

I agree. Given Bryon's contempt for "mundanes", I find it hard to believe he would fall for a woman who, although beautiful, was by her own admission "not even a P1".

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[–] kerryedavis 9 years ago

Well, except that she would have been "pulled in by Psi Corps" anyway. And given her latent status, that might have struck Byron as being even more unfair than it would be for more powerful ones like himself and his compatriots.

I still don't think it would have worked as well, but not necessarily for THAT reason. Lyta and her more-advanced powers were able to deal with Bester and his crew. Ivanova could not have done the same.

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[–] yomama117 8 years ago

My beef:
-Talia getting axed.
-Abruptness of the Shadow war end.
-What happened to the Great Machine?
-The Byron arc.

While I grew to like Lyta I think the telepath arc would've been stronger with Talia. I get the uncertainty of Season 5 caused the Shadow War to be compressed. Kinda sucks that that happens even to a show with such good planning. I'd have like to see both the Earth Civil War and the Drak-Centari crisis happen in season 4 as part of further Shadow manipulations (maybe the latter would have to be amended), with the final showdown happening season 5. Epsilon 3 was also kinda forgotten after the Valen episodes, it definitely could've still come in handy while the Shadows were around and some conclusion better than nothing could've been set for it after. As for the Byron arc, I just don't like the portrayal. They act like vampires from an Anne Rice novel. Plus the arc only works if you completely ignore telepaths from other races. What did the Minbari or Centari telepaths on the station think about all this? Why couldn't those embassies, or other simply work out some type of immigration policy for them?

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[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

There are several good points there, but I think one thing that could make a big difference overall is that the other races didn't seem to fear and even hate their telepaths the way humans mostly seemed to.

But it does seem odd that the other races also didn't seem to have any problems with their telepaths - or some of them, anyway - trying to basically take over control of everything.

Could that have been due to a more general lack of ambition among members of those races? The caste system of the Minbari might have tended in that direction, and once again they didn't seen to give their telepaths a push in that direction by tending to shun them from general life.

But it doesn't really seem to fit for the Centauri. Although the way the Centauri ordered things in general, with an emperor etc, perhaps telepaths wouldn't have been able to take control anyway, the way they apparently could with humans and Earth.

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[–] azzajones1 8 years ago

I don't feel the conflict with Earth was setup properly, at the end of the first season President Santiago is killed (who never appeared on screen), then in the second season there's a little bit about that but it disappears until the middle of season 3 where out of nowhere they find the proof the Santiago was assassinated by Clark then suddenly there's a big thing with Earth.
Another thing would be president Clark, the character had about 5 minutes screen time on the whole show yet was this big villain on the show, but never did anything significant on screen - he was basically a name.

I also agree with what others have said about seasons 4&5

Yesterday I thought this was solid ground, just another thing I was wrong about

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[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

There's more to it than that, and stuff like the Night Watch etc all came from Clark and what he was doing back on Earth and more on the direct colony worlds than on B5 which had more to do with other races.

Part of the reason General Hague and others did their parts to get Sheridan put in command of B5 was because Clark and other hard-liners would assume he was like them, from his record. So they would be more likely to leave him alone, and to some extent that's what happened. Which meant less directly-Earth-related stories than you might have preferred, as a result.

But even with that, there were a few episodes halfway through season 2 that dealt with more of the situation back on Earth, including All Alone In The Night, Hunter Prey, And Now For A Word, Divided Loyalties...

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[–] azzajones1 8 years ago

I hadn't forgotten about Night Watch & General Hague those were what I meant by the few things about it in season 2. Perhaps, I need to re-watch and it's better setup than I remember; still stand by what I said about the assassination of Santiago & Clark being a name.

Another disappointment is the show basically petered out at the end of season 5, this would somewhat be due to JMS believing he wouldn't get a 5th season and concluding everything at the end of season 4, in the last few eps of the show nothing much happened.

Yesterday I thought this was solid ground, just another thing I was wrong about

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[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Overall, I think it turned out better, partly just by happenstance, than it would have if JMS had been able to follow his original plan completely. Including having TEN years rather than just five. And without any of the cast changes etc, that happened for various reasons outside of his plan.

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[–] Muromets 8 years ago

Shadow War ended way to abruptly. I wish they could show more. And not only Big Space Battles (though, that would be also nice... i remember how we argued as kids about what is stronger - shadow "spider" of vorlon "cracken") but build on more of panic, chaos - a true feeling of end of days on galaxy scale.

More about Third Space Aliens and Third Space itself.

Fate of Talia. Was she really dissected or was it just Bester mindf@cking with Mr. Garibaldi? I wish her "reflection" that Kosh recorded would have become a crucial fact of her survival.

President Clark as a more sophisticated character. Not barely-on-screen power hungry mediocrity, puppet of Shadows and Psi-corp but actually a patriot of Earth, that sincerely belived that Santiago rule will destroy Earth and be the end of humanity.

There are more, but i will shut up for now.

***
It is alright to take few steps backward, if it helps you get a running start.

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[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Things like that could certainly have stretched it out to 10 years, but I'm not sure the writing could have sustained interest that far, over a planned run.

The way things worked out, if they had just been able to stretch out the Shadow War to the middle of season 4 or so, or maybe all the way through season 4; and then started the Earth War which gets wrapped up around the end of season 5 or perhaps into a season 6, that would have been a more balanced approach.

And then they could have gone into season 7 and beyond with the Interstellar Alliance stories, for sure. Which could have continued for several years.

But 10 years just for the Shadow and Earth stuff, which is what JMS apparently had originally planned, seems like stretching it too thin.

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[–] coolgit 8 years ago

The main one is that it came out 10 years too early. Imagine if this was done now, superb graphics etc.
Not enough on the First Ones which were a cool bunch of ancient races and too much boring bits.
The Walkers appeared in Season 1 then again when Ivanova searched for them. Nowt till Into the fire episode when suddenly the others were there with extremely little explanation. The Mindriders appeared and Lorien said to go and meet them then that's it. No meeting. It would have been fun to see Ivanova and/or other charcters finding the Mindriders in season 2 and later the Kirshiac. The Torvalus in Season 3 and the Traid in Season 4 with Lorian's help. The idea each had one ship was pathetic. Could have done with more.

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[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

For the most part, I'm happy with just about everything, small quibbles though:

I would have liked to have seen more EA Captain involvement in the fight for Earth, on both sides. We got a taste of that with Mackey and the Agamemnon, but only barely. I suppose that would have been handled with those cut 4 episodes from S4. Maybe have a General Franklin-type officer.

More involvement of the time-travel aspect. As it functions, it's only there for Londo's redemption (which, honestly, I never felt quite added up) and Sheridan's "death". Some discussion on the nature of the keepers and decision planning would have been nice, here it just seems Sheridan completely forgets about the "keepers". Oh gee, the Shadow's minions have fled Z'ha'Dum and now the Centauri are acting up. It's not like that could be related somehow, could it?

I also missed a few of the early characters. Swedish CIC tech, Lou Welch, that dockworker, flesh out a few of the perspectives. More detail about what happened to Sakai - she just disappeared? Sure, big universe vs small ship, but still. Maybe have her smuggle goods to B5, how'd she react to hearing about Sinclair, etc.

Some sort of ending for the Great Machine, outside of providing a power booster for the Voice of the Resistance and that clip of Morden talking with Clarke, it did nothing and seemed like they were trying to forget about it. I know the finale was completely full, but if I was Dra'al, I'd have an issue with detonating a 5-mile long station in orbit over my facility.

Oh, and Beta Squadron.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

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[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

I know the finale was completely full, but if I was Dra'al, I'd have an issue with detonating a 5-mile long station in orbit over my facility.

The whole thing about B5 having to be destroyed because it was a "hazard to navigation" was claptrap, start to finish.

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