MovieChat Forums > Bad Lieutenant (1992) Discussion > Christian Doctrine of Forgiveness: Effec...

Christian Doctrine of Forgiveness: Effective or Irresponsible ?



This movie tries to explore Christian doctrine of forgiveness. At its best, as in Martin Luther King's movement this doctrine is effective, at its worst, as in the cover-up of priest abuses this doctrine is irresponsible.

Forgiving rapers in my opinion is irresponsible as they likely to reofend. Giving substantial sum of money to rapers it's a bit tricky. On one hand the poor men are who usually rape so giving them money would afford them a wife, a date, or at least a hooker. But when money run out - back to raping again?

The cop should have bought with those money two full scholarships to some community college or university so they can get a trade or an education and get on with their lives.

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The Christian doctrine of forgiveness does not preclude justice. To recieve God's forgiveness one must be sincere in their appelation for grace. A thief may not ask forgiveness after robbing a bank and then spend the money. No forgiveness is granted in this instance because the HEART is where forgiveness is judged. If repentance is real then one's actions follow their change of heart. If someone is raped and they forgive their rapist, that's a charitable attitude and required of a Christian, (making true discipleship of Christ literally the hardest lifestyle in any religion,) but they can't forgive them for the rape they will commit against others. A Christian must have more compassion for a future victim of the rapist than for the rapist himself. Its that very compassion that DEMANDS that justice be done. Forgiveness isn't a carte blanche to sin. As a society, we must remove dangerous elements from our population and we must try to rehabilitate those who have become that threat. To do anything else is to knowingly say that crime is okay. Human forgiveness is about eliminating bitterness in your own heart more than mending relationships. Forgiveness is a part of the Christian compassion, but so is the protection of the innocent.

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Excellent post, backlash

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=On one hand the poor men are who usually rape so giving them money would afford them a wife, a date, or at least a hooker. But when money run out - back to raping again?=

Excuse me?

You don't purchase a wife in the same way you purchase a hooker.

In addition, rape isn't about the opportunity to have sex. Rape is a crime of violence. The kids presented in the movie brutalized a completely helpless woman. They *gang raped her*. Rape is a violent assault on a woman, despite what those "other" movies might lead you to believe.

This is just creepy.

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"Rape is a violent assault on a woman, despite what those "other" movies might lead you to believe."
Yes, it usually is, but at least also LEGALLY wise, what is important for it to be classified as such at least on a basic legal level is the LACK OF CONSENT on victim's behalf rather than, however usual and possible it is, the presence of violence. And what exactly DID those "other movies" lead one to believe and was it really rape in them or just role play, S&M and even "rough sex", which does of course differ from rape either way and is actually both a normal and a legal act.

And even though most of the time in a matter like this, regardless of gender of victims (yes, folks, we know the basics etc) it is mostly men who are perpetrators, this law on consent in sex and sexual intercourse applies to everyone EQUALLY hence by law AT LEAST anyone can be charged although yes I am aware it can be difficult to prove and all as well as how today especially, this issue is an incredibly sensitive matter, more so than even murder and other forms of violence as well.

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Of course, we don't mean to imply its "worse than murder" like that, whether in itself or ESPECIALLY in the case of a potential recovery for the victim, at least mentally. And other forms of violence, whilst perhaps pale compared to sexual abuse, are also NOT allowed, ARE serious and at times can be prosecuted by law etc. Its just that sexual abuse with and to many people, including online forums I have been in and seen, is a more serious and sensitive as an issue, even in fictional movies.

P.S. Slight lol at how in the review for the film "Mum & Dad" (2008) although people rightly complained about the family threatening rape against a girl captive there, but those people in the very same sentence did NOT make as big a deal that the girl was kidnapped, constantly threaten, beaten, injured and NEARLY MURDERED, WHICH, mind you, and God forbid, I would be VERY STRONGLY AGAINST in real life too even if there was no abuse of a sexual nature at all involved, and I would still hope that those responsible are STOPPED and punished accordingly.

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Well I don't think rapists rape because they don't have a "date" for the night. They rape because they want to feel powerful. They want to let their anger out. So money wouldn't help them.
I definetly agree that forgiving rapers is irresponsible. Most rapists are likely to rape again, as you mentioned.
So yes, I most certainly agree that the christian doctorine of forgiveness is irresponsible. And it's like telling people "do whatever you like, in the end you can always be fogiven."

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in the old days christians would tie rapists up against stakes and set them ablaze, or torture them to death so that their souls will go to heaven. Nowadays we got liberals, meh.

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Yes; in the 21st century, we should be setting rapists on fire or torturing them. Great point!

"This year I'm voting Republican. The Democrats left a bad taste in my mouth."
-Monica Lewinsky

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Yes, we should. Better yet a more fitting punishment, put them in a room with a big, gay dude and let the rapist get boned and beaten.

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That's funny coz in the bible if you get raped, you have to marry your rapist and if you dont scream loud enough, you get stoned along with the rapist.

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==That's funny coz in the bible if you get raped, you have to marry your rapist and if you dont scream loud enough, you get stoned along with the rapist.==

This is true. So, I guess if they were really going Biblical, the nun would have been stoned to death along with the rapists since she screamed loud enough.

So much for Biblical redemption in the story.

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Doesn't that just make you SICK and ANGRY with humanity? God, they sure do know how to PISS US OFF, bastards. Why did such a stupid idea come into their heads in the first place, why not just punish the perpetrators of it like they would in other cases?

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NO WONDER in modern days at least in THEORY people, at least normal ones who ARE against it, are unable to be objective and give a calm and rational thought when it comes to rape, sexual abuse and punishment of rapists and no wonder a matter like this is at least in theory if not practice considered a SPECIAL CRIME.

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Will there be a fair trial beforehand? Because the definition of rape today includes, "We had a one night stand and he didn't call me the next day..."

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I wouldn't quite call your above example as "what includes the DEFINITION of rape by today's standards". For me, the definition of it, like the definition of murder, or assault, or robbery, has always been the same.

And what you have there is just one occasional example of how people may misuse and misinterpret the situation, but its not the overall majority. And the actual matter is serious enough as it is, if that situation happened, then obviously it includes a thorough investigation and whatnot, but sometimes, it can be obvious, too. Like, some examples may be recorded on video, in some cases, people may witness it, there could be visible injuries in some cases on the victim as well.

I suppose your message also means there SHOULD be a trial in order to get 100% perfect proof and evidence, and at least on some occasions, mistakes might HAPPEN, even if not always and with how common the issue overall is?

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Plus, I find it rather HARD to BELIEVE, but that's just me, that if after a one night stand for instance, someone simply doesn't call someone a day after, then that person who doesn't receive a phone call would immediately assume that what happened was 'rape' just like that, even if there were no even small signs related to physical force used or lack of consent, just like that.

And I would imagine, whether in today's times or throughout our whole human histories, those suspicious examples overall were rather rare.

But if they even ARE to happen at all?

Man, Dear God, we humans really are sexually sensitive like in more ways that one, but I wonder how much if at all truth there is besides the very basic one, and I don't know about others, but in this field, I like to think that I am entirely normal and logically inclined as well, and even if not always, well, at least not to THAT TYPE OF LEVEL.

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Also, SandyR, what do you think of the fact that, the general FACT that, in life... And I have NO personal qualms and disagreements, but I will proceed anyways.

There are certain things by THEMSELVES are bad and most of us wouldn't want (or even 'consent to' them). And some things in life are good when agreed and consented to, and bad in general (including personally, besides law and morality) when we don't want it or especially when its forced on us against our will.

Obviously in sexual matters, such distinctions definitely exist and are vital. Like sex is all good and even WONDERFUL when we want it and practice it, but bad (yes, I'm aware its CALLED 'rape', dictionary definition of which means of course forced and un-consensual sex, yes I know there is MORE to it, but still) and even incredibly hurtful and mentally traumatic when we DON'T. In yin and yan terms and in terms of OPPOSITES.

And in real life unlike MOVIES, for the most part, there is this common aura of real life tragedy around it and not much in terms of even bittersweet endings and no real total way out. Like it, the situation, creates victims and unpleasant human monstrous perpetrators, but we all know it.

And with this matter, we often hear from people about how its like the most unforgivable type of offense in the world, not just for how bad it hurts the victim but how selfish it is from the point of view of perpetrators. Its all worth saying I suppose but I still wondered how true that actually is, although yes that offense mostly does make mine top 3 worst offenses ever list.

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Then again I don't know much about equivalent of consent in fields of murder, torture, robbery besides often opposite extremes of people NOT doing it. C'est la vie et vraiment.

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I believe rape (real rape, that is) is worse than murder. Rape leaves the victim alive to deal with the horrible memory for the rest of their life.

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Well, its debatable if it is, but its bad enough on its own level.

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Does it necessarily apply to all forms of rape or - as bad as they all are, there are different gradation and severity levels, some of which may not be lifetime trauma or "worse than murder"?

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Not to mention, SPOILERS, the nun in this movie actually forgives them and even manages to get Keitel to show him mercy as well. So its still bad and wrong but not necessarily on par with murder.

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Most Christians would agree with you that letting rapists go is irresponsible. The movie doesn't imply that real Christians always forgive and forget things like rape, plus ita a Catholic nun. Many protestants dont consider Catholic Christian.

The nun could have forgiven them inside, but that doesn't excuse the criminal from punishment by the secular law. That is what Christians believe.

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i think the point was that Keitel was giving them a chance at redemption something no one else in his situation would do. It probably saved the lieutenant's soul from damnation. that's more of the point then whether they will rape again. They may or they may not but at least Keitel gave them a chance to make up for their sins

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Not only is it very irresponsible, it is also very stupid, selfish and down right dangerous.

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If someone can forgive themself, then isn't that where the effect is meant to take place? What more is there to have faith in than the human spirit?

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I think the point of the ending is not so much saying that the Lieutenant has done the right thing in Christian terms by freeing them and giving them the money (or to raise questions about what he should have done with the them and the money instead) but by showing that he doesn't understand the very concept of the Christian Doctrine of Forgiveness as he has simply abided by it despite still hating them for their violent act and is barely able to refrain from killing them on the way to the bus station and remains unchanged from how we have previously seen him in the film, howling forth that recurring cry of inner-anguish and torment. Without the personal change needed to truly put forth this doctrine, it didn't matter that he did this for them since a change on a personal level is the only kind we can ever really make in the world as the end goal of it is our own salvation. It gives hope that he has awakened and changed them for the better with his act, though, and this bizarrely enough can actually render him as a Christ figure in that he has sacrificed himself, or more specifically sacrificing his hope of changing and making a better life for himself, in order to atone for their sin and enable them with the change they need, but a large part of the point is that he still doesn't understand how or why the Nun forgives and his blind acceptance of and following her lead makes him not a true Christian at all and will only lead him to remain a lost soul in a purgatorial existence after his death, enforced by the white backdrop of the end credits with the same Schoolly D track (that is unfortunately left out now due to the lawsuit) that was played throughout the film, complimenting this damnation due to his lack of change.

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Also, even IF, for argument's sake, after their first offense they do NOT reoffend, don't we think they should STILL be in prison for what they did?

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