Were and when?


My Second post in this thread is much better organized and presents its conclusions at the top with the explanations for them below for those who are interested. Thus it is recommended that you read the second post instead of this one.

Space and time are connected.

Suppose that some of the creators wanted to make Star Trek: the Motion Picture the most scientifically accurate and realistic Star Trek production yet. One way they might have done so would have been to remember high school problems about calculating distance and time.

remember? Problems like: "If Train A leaves from City C at a speed of 50 miles per hour and Train B leaves from City D at a speed of 60 miles per hour, and the cities are 220 miles apart, when will the two trains pass each other - or crash if they're on the same track?"

So maybe the creators of Star Trek: the Motion Picture decided to make V'Ger's trip to Earth and the Enterprise's trip to intercept V'Ger scientifically plausible and do the necessary calculations.

Star Trek: the Motion Picture opens with three Klingon ships fighting V'Ger and then shows the Epsilon IX station intercepting the Klingon messages.

[Epsilon IX - interior]

LIEUTENANT: Our sensor drone is intercepting this on Quad L fourteen.
BRANCH: That's in Klingon boundaries. Who are they fighting?
LIEUTENANT: Unknown, sir.
TECHNICIAN: I have an exterior visual.
(the battle cruisers are destroyed by energy bolts from the Cloud)
LIEUTENANT: We've plotted a course on that Cloud, Commander. It will pass into Federation space fairly close to us.
BRANCH: Heading?
LIEUTENANT: Sir, it's on a precise heading for Earth!


So we can imagine a line and V'ger travelling on that line toward Earth. Somewhere between V'ger's current position and Earth there is the Federation Border. Epsilon IX is probably very close to the spot here V'Ger's path crosses the Federation border. Since V'Ger fought the Klingons inside Klingon boundaries, there is also a Klingon border between V'ger and Earth.

Possibly there is one border, between Federation and Klingon space, as there is in many regions of space, or possibly the Klingon and Federation borders are separated by unclaimed space between them in this region of space.

The next scene shows Spock's Kolinahr failure, probably but not certainly after the previous scene.

The Next scene is at starfleet Headquarters. Kirk has certainly heard about V'Ger heading toward Earth:

KIRK: Here? At Starfleet? The Enterprise is in final preparation to leave dock.
SONAK: Which will require twenty more hours at minimum.
KIRK: Twelve! I'm on my way to a meeting with Admiral Nogura which will not last more than three minutes. Report to me on the Enterprise in one hour.
SONAK: Report to you, sir?
KIRK: It is my intention to be on that ship following that meeting. Report to me in one hour.


The next scene is in an orbiting complex.

SCOTT:SCOTT: Those departure orders, twelve hours, Starfleet cannot be serious.
KIRK: Why aren't the Enterprise transporters operating, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: A wee problem, sir, really. Just temporary. Admiral, we have just spent eighteen months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise. How in the name of hell do they expect to have her ready in twelve hours?
KIRK: Take me over, please.
[Travel Pod]

SCOTT: She needs more work, a shakedown.
KIRK: Mister Scott, there's an alien object with unbelievable destructive power less than three days away from this planet. ...The only starship in interception range is the Enterprise. Ready, or not, she launches in twelve hours.


So now, an unknown time after V'ger was first detected in Klingon space by Epsilon IX, it is less than three days from Earth, though probably more than 2.5 days.

Kirk goes to the bridge and orders the crew to assemble on the rec deck at 0400 hours.

Soon after the bridge scene is the transporter accident to Commander Sonak, about an hour after Stardate 7410.2.

When the crew is on the rec deck Kirk plays the recordings of V'ger.

KIRK: That's all we know about it, except that it's now fifty-three point four hours away from Earth. Enterprise is the only Federation starship that stands in its way. Our orders are to intercept, investigate, and take whatever action is necessary, ...and possible.


Then they get the message of V'ger destroying Epsilon IX at about the time it crosses the Federation border.

KIRK: External view!
(Epsilon IX is destroyed in the same way as the Klingon battle cruisers)
KIRK: Viewer off. ...Pre-launch countdown will commence in forty minutes.


Since we don't know how long the Pre-launch countdown lasts, this moment is probably more than one hour and less than eleven hours and twenty minutes, after Kirk talked to Sonak and Spock. Thus at Stardate 7410.2 V'ger was about 54.4 to 64.7333 hours (2.266 to 2.69 days), or less from Earth.

Later Enterprise launches:

KIRK: Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five. ...Departure angle on viewer.
SULU: Departure angle.
KIRK: Viewer ahead.
(external space, Enterprise passes Jupiter)
Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. one point eight hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, we must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system.
DECKER: Captain, assuming we have full warp capability, accelerating to warp seven on leaving the solar system will bring us to IP with the intruder, twenty point one hours.


If the Enterprise did launch in 12 hours, stardate 7412.6 should be 2.4 stardate units and 13.8 hours after Kirk talked to Sonak and Scott, thus making about 5.75 hours per stardate unit in this era.


If the Enterprise will intercept V'ger in 20.1 hours at warp factor seven, and the official TOS warp scale is used and warp seven is 343 times the speed of light, Enterprise will intercept V'ger at a point 6,894.3 light hours from Earth. Since a light year is defined as the distance light travels in a Julian calendar year, 365.25 days long, there are 8,766 light hours in a light year. So the projected intercept point is about 0.786 light years from Earth.

But when they try to go to warp an engine imbalance creates a wormhole,. Then Kirk says:

KIRK: That object out there is less than two days from Earth. We need to intercept while it still is out there
.

If it is less than 48 hours but more than 20.1 hours from Earth this should be about 5.4 to 33.1 hours after the rec deck scene.

Spock comes aboard, and by stardate 7413.4, about 18.4 hours after Kirk talked to Sonak and Scott on stardate 7410.2, has corrected the engine imbalance.

Captain's log, stardate 7413.4. Thanks to Mister Spock's timely arrival, and assistance, we have the engines rebalanced into full warp capacity. Repair time less than three hours, ...which means we will now be able to intercept intruder while still more than a day from Earth.
SULU: Warp point eight, ...point nine, ...warp two, ...warp five, ...warp six, ...warp seven, sir.


So now the projected intercept point is more than a day from Earth. Thus they will intercept V'Ger when V'Ger is between 24 and 48 hours, possibly between 24 and 36 hours, from Earth at V'gr's speed.

Later when they arrive at V'Ger and have managed to call off it's attack:

KIRK: That thing is twenty hours away from Earth. We know nothing about it yet.


I don't see how they spent at least 4 hours travelling alongside V'ger in the few onscreen minutes after intercepting it.

Later:

Captain's log, stardate 7414.1. Our best estimates place us some four hours from Earth. No significant progress thus far reviving Ilia memory patterns within the alien probe. This remains our only means of contact with our captor.


This should be about 3.9 stardate units, or about 22.425 hours after Kirk talked to Sonak and Scott on Stardate 7410.2. And that doesn't add up to at least 53.4 hours from Earth in the rec deck room scene. If the rec deck scene is 53.4 hours from Earth and is between stardates 7410.2 and 7412.6, and stardate 7414.1 is 4 hours from Earth, stardate 7414.1 is about 49.4 hours after the rec deck scene, and there should be about 12.6666 to 32.333 hours in a stardate unit.

And some time later:

[Enterprise bridge]

UHURA: A faint signal from Starfleet, sir. Intruder Cloud has been located on their outer monitors for past twenty-seven minutes. ...Cloud dissipating rapidly as it approaches.
SULU: Starfleet reports forward velocity has slowed to sub-warp speed. We are three minutes from Earth's orbit.


One other point:

KIRK: Gentlemen. At last report you were on Vulcan. Apparently to stay.
McCOY: Yes, you were undergoing the Kolineer discipline.
KIRK: Sit down.
SPOCK: If you are referring to the Kolinahr, Doctor, you are correct.
McCOY: Well, however it's pronounced, Mister Spock, it's the Vulcan ritual supposed to purge all remaining emotions.
KIRK: The Kolinahr is also the discipline you broke ...to join us. Will you, please, ...sit down!
SPOCK: On Vulcan I began sensing a consciousness of a force more powerful than I have ever encountered. Thought patterns of exactingly perfect order. I believe they emanate from the intruder. I believe it may hold my answers.


This seems to prove that Spock was on Vulcan or in the Vulcan Solar system when he sensed V'ger.

KIRK: Mister Scott! Shall we give the Enterprise a proper shakedown?
SCOTT: I would say it's time for that, sir, aye. We can have you back on Vulcan in for days, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Unnecessary, Mister Scott. My task on Vulcan is completed.


So the rebuilt Enterprise can reach Vulcan in "four days", or about 3.0 to 5.0 days.

At warp 6 a ship could travel 1.77 light years in 3 days, 2.36 light years in 4 days, and 2.956 light years in 5 days.

At warp 7 a ship could travel 2.817 light years in 3 days, 3.756 light years in 4 days, and 4.695 light years in 5 days.

At warp 8 a ship could travel 4.205 light years in 3 days, 5.607 light years in 4 days, and 7.01 light years in 5 days.

It seems to me that they would travel faster when trying to intercept V'ger than on a shakedown cruise, so it doesn't seem likely Scott would calculate the travel time to Vulcan using warp 8 instead of warp 7.

It seems to be generally agreed that Vulcan is 40 Eridani:

According to Gene Roddenberry, James Blish and multiple other background sources, the Vulcan system was the star 40 Eridani A. One official source that suggested this proposal was the 1980 reference work Star Trek Maps (pp. 25-26). An alternative possibility, included in the equally official Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology (first published in 1979), was that Vulcan's sun was Epsilon Eridani. Roddenberry favored 40 Eridani, due to the comparative ages of the two systems. In a letter printed in Sky and Telescope magazine in July 1991, Roddenberry wrote, "Based on the history of life on Earth, life on any planet around Epsilon Eridani would not have had time to evolve beyond the level of bacteria. On the other hand, an intelligent civilization could have evolved over the aeons on a planet circling 40 Eridani. So the latter is the more likely Vulcan sun." He also made the presumption that the planet orbits the primary star. [12] This association was continued in the books The Worlds of the Federation (p. 18) and Star Trek: Star Charts (p. 58). Both sources cite Vulcan as the second planet in the system, which Star Charts (pp. 19 & 45) places in Sector 005 in the Beta Quadrant.

MiscellaneousEdit


But the most certain thing Memory Alpha could say was"

Location Edit
Vulcan was located "a little over" sixteen light years from Earth. Vulcan was located near Andoria. (ENT: "The Andorian Incident", "Home")

In the 2270s, a Constitution-class heavy cruiser traveling at warp speed from Earth could reach Vulcan in four days. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)


http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Vulcan_(planet)

40 Eridani is about 16.45 plus or minus 0.07 light years, or 16.38 to 16.52 light years. To travel that distance in "four days" - 3.0 to 5.0 days - requires a speed of 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the speed of light. That is about 2.337 to 9.311 times as fast as the official TOS warp factors 6, 7, and 8.

Possibly TMP uses a new warp scale in which warp seven is about 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the sped of light. Maybe Scotty calculated the trip time to Vulcan knowing that certain unspecified factors would enable the Enterprise in much less time that according to the warp formula.

Presumably Spock's Vulcan shuttle used the same warp factors and/or unknown additional factors to enable it to make the trip from Vulcan to near Earth in the same time as Scott calculated. Thus Spock would have left Vulcan three to five days before meeting the Enterprise. And we might suppose that Spock left Vulcan two to five days before stardate 7410.2 when Kirk talked to Sonak and Scott.

Thus at V'ger's speed it was probably roughly approximately (53.4 plus 48=101.4) to (72 + 120 = 192) hours, or 4.225 to 8 days, from Earth When Spock left Vulcan.

When the Enterprise launched, V'ger was less than 3 days minus half a day from Earth, or 1.5 days to 2.5 days from Earth. It was also at least 40 minutes (0.666 hours) less than 53.4 hours from Earth, or less than 52.734 hours or 2.197 days from Earth. When the Enterprise tried to enter warp 1.8 hours (or 0.075 days) after launch, V'ger was between 1.425 and 2.197 days from Earth. If the Enterprise would intercept V'ger after travelling 20.1 hours (or 0.8375 days) at warp seven, V'ger would have traveled 20.1 hours (or 0.8375 days) toward Earth at it's speed.

20.1 hours (or 0.8375 days) would be 0.3812 to 0.5875 of the total time V'Ger needed to reach Earth. V'ger would have traveled 0.3812 to 0.5875 of its remaining distance to Earth while the Enterprise traveled 20.1 hours at warp seven.

If the Enterprise is using the official TOS warp formula, it should expect to intercept. V'ger about 0.786 light years from Earth. But possibly they plan to travel at warp factor seven and somehow travel 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the speed of light, as in Scott's calculated travel time from Earth to Vulcan. in that case they would expect to intercept V'ger at a distance of about 2.743 to 4.611 light years from Earth.

Then they have the wormhole problem and turn off the warp engines. After a few minutes Kirk says that V'Ger is less than 2 days (48 hours) from Earth. But obviously more than the 0.8375 days (20.1 hours) they expected to intercept V'ger in. Thus when the Enterprise tried to enter warp V'ger should have been between 1.425 and 2.000 days from Earth. Thus intercepting V'ger in 0.8375 days would mean traveling somewhere between 0.441875 and 0.5877 of the distance V'ger has to travel to Earth.

After some time Spock comes aboard, and after repair time of less than three hours, or about 2.5 to 3.0 hours, Enterprise is ready to go to warp. This could be about 2.5 to 4.0 hours after the first attempt to go to warp. Thus V'ger should be about 1.2584 to 1.896 days from Earth when they go to warp the second time. And Kirk says they will intercept V'Ger while it is still more than a day from Earth (about 1.0 to 2.0 days).

If they originally planned to intercept V'ger between 0.441875 and O.5877 of the distance V'ger had still to travel to Earth, V'ger would travel between 0.558125 and 0.4123 of the total distance to Earth during that period. Thus the Enterprise would travel between about 0.7917 and 1.4254 times as far, and thus between about 0.7917 and 1.4254 times as fast as V'ger. Similarly V'Ger would travel between about 0.701 and 1.263 times as fast as the Enterprise.

As written above, V'ger should be about 1.2584 to 1.896 days from Earth when they go to warp the second time. And Kirk says they will intercept V'Ger while it is still more than a day from Earth (about 1.0 to 2.0 days). Thus the Enterprise should travel for less than 0.2584 to 0.896 days to intercept V'ger more than 1.000 days from Earth.

Half of 1.2584 to 1.896 days is 0.6292 to 0.948 days. If the Enterprise and V'ger traveled at the same speed they would meet halfway between them after 0.6292 to 0.948 days. And V'ger would be less than a day from Earth, not more than a day.

If V'ger has 1.2584 to 1.896 days to travel and the Enterprise meets V'ger when V'ger still has more than 1.001 days to travel, then the Enterprise travels at least 1.118 to 3.387 times as fast as V'ger.

Thus it seems that the Enterprise should be travelling about 1.118 to 1.4254 times as fast as V'ger, and thus that V'ger should be travelling 0.701 to 0.894 times as fast as the Enterprise.

If the Enterprise travels at the official TOS warp factor Seven, or 343 times the speed of light, V'Ger's speed should be about 240.4 to 306.6 times the speed of light.

The Enterprise should intercept V'Ger about 1.0 to 2.0 days from Earth at a point about 0.658 to 1.679 light years from Earth.

V'ger should cross the Federation border and destroy Epsilon IX 53.4 hours (2.225 days) from Earth about 1.464 to 1.867 light years from Earth. And farther away than the Enterprise reaches it, of course.

V'ger should be less than three days from Earth (about 2.0 to 3.0 days) on stardate 7410.2, and thus about 1.316 to 2.518 light years from Earth. But this is before V'Ger crosses the Border, and so 1.464 to 2.518 light years from Earth.

And Spock Should have left Vulcan about 2.0 to 5.0 days before stardate 7410.2. This should be when V'ger is about 4.225 to 8.000 days from Earth, and thus about 2.364 to 6.715 light years from Earth.

But if Spock's Vulcan Shuttle and the Enterprise could travel at speeds of about 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the speed of light between Earth and Vulcan, maybe the Enterprise travels at 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the speed of light when travelling at warp seven to intercept V'Ger.

So if V'ger travels at 0.701 to 0.894 times the Enterprise's speed of 1,196.559 to 2,011.31 times the speed of light, V'ger would travel 838.787 to 1,789.111 times the speed of light.

The Enterprise should intercept V'Ger about 1.0 to 2.0 days from Earth at a point about 2.296 to 9.796 light years from Earth.

V'ger should cross the Federation border and destroy Epsilon IX 53.4 hours (2.225 days) from Earth about 5.292 to 10.898 light years from Earth. And farther away than the Enterprise reaches it, of course.

V'ger should be less than three days from Earth (about 2.0 to 3.0 days) on stardate 7410.2, and thus about 4.592 to 14.694 light years from Earth. But this is before V'Ger crosses the Border, and so 5.292 to 14.694 light years from Earth.

And Spock Should have left Vulcan about 2.0 to 5.0 days before stardate 7410.2. This should be when V'ger is about 4.225 to 8.000 days from Earth, and thus about 9.702 to 39.186 years from Earth.

And presumably V'Ger destroyed the Klingon ships within Klingon boundaries shortly before, or at the same time that Spock sensed Vger, and thus when V'ger was either about 2.364 to 6.064 light years from Earth, or about 9.702 to 39.186 light years from Earth.

If V'Ger traveled at about 240.4 to 306.6 times the speed of light, it could travel about 72,120 to 122,640 light years in 300 to 400 years, the approximate time limits for its journey if there was no time travel involved.

If V'Ger tra

reply

My first post was very long, so I'll try to be shorter this time.

Where and when does Star Trek: The Motion Picture happen? On Earth, on Vulcan, and in outer space is where. But where and when do the outer space scenes happen?

The short answer is:

1) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at warp factor seven on the TOS scale:

V'Ger would be 0.6765435 to 1.5729637 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 3.2640492 to 5.505373 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 74,132.256 to 114,905 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before.

2) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at warp factor seven on the TNG scale:

V'Ger would be 1.2941804 to 3.0089694 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 2.8795512 to 3.3474784 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 6.2438984 to 10.531393 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 141,809.82 to 219,805.22 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before.

3) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at the speeds needed in the described journey from Earth to Vulcan:

V'Ger would be 2.3053763 to 9.4916659 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 5.129462 to 10.559478 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 11.12251 to 33.220832 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 252,611.61 to 693,366.24 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before

So there is a vast contrast between the immense length of V'Ger's journey and the comparatively short distances that the main events of the movie take place in.

Note that even the farthest calculated distance for V"Ger when Spock began his journey to Earth - 33.220832 light years - is "only" a "mere" 195,292,810,000,000 miles, give or take a few billion.

This may seem way too close to Earth. But possibly the interstellar laws and treaties in Star Trek allow interstellar realms like the federation to only claim space within a sphere with a relatively small radius around each star they rule. Thus a map of the Federation would look like hundreds or thousands of tiny spheres scattered across space.

The same goes for the Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Breen, Tholian, Gorn, etc. etc. realms. And star systems belonging to different realms might be mixed up together. It is possible that the most distant Federation star system might be hundreds of times farther from Earth than the nearest Klingon star system.

Note that:

According to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, (p. 3) the exact distance between Cardassia and Bajor was 5.25 light years.


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=distance+from+Bajor+to+Cardassia+Prime

A distance that probably gave millions of Bajorans and Cardassians nightmares. So Cardassia let a colony planet only 5.25 light years from their capital planet become independent and then apply to join Cardassia's former and potentially future enemy, the Federation.

If it's good enough for Cardassia it's good enough for the Federation.

One advantage of events happening so close to Earth is that it should be very easy to identify the Klingon star system V'Ger passes by when it fights the Klingons.

Explanation of the Distances

1) Relative Speeds

After launch:

Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. one point eight hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, we must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system.
DECKER: Captain, assuming we have full warp capability, accelerating to warp seven on leaving the solar system will bring us to IP with the intruder, twenty point one hours.


After the failed attempt to go to warp, Kirk says just minutes later:

KIRK: That object out there is less than two days from Earth.


So it will take the Enterprise 20.1 hours to reach V'Ger. Since V'Gr is 24.0 to 48 hours from Earth, they will reach V'Ger when V'Ger is still 3.9 to 27.9 hours from Earth. Thus the speed of Enterprise must be 0.1940298 to 1.3880597 times the speed of V'Ger.

When they are about to try the warp drive again hours later:

Captain's log, stardate 7413.4. Thanks to Mister Spock's timely arrival, and assistance, we have the engines rebalanced into full warp capacity. Repair time less than three hours, ...which means we will now be able to intercept intruder while still more than a day from Earth.


So because V'Ger is now closer to Earth than before, the Enterprise will take less than 20.1 hours to reach V'ger from very near Earth when V'ger is more than 24.0 hours from reaching Earth.

So the speed of the Enterprise must be at least 1.1940298 time the speed of V'Ger. Together the 2 calculations prove the speed of the Enterprise is 1.1940298 to 1.3880597 times the speed of V'ger. Thus the speed of V'Ger must be 0.7204301 to 0.8375 times the speed of the Enterprise.

2) Absolute Speed of V'Ger:

The Enterprise travels at warp factor seven during the movie.

1) If the official TOS warp scale is used, warp factor seven is 343 times the speed of light and the speed of V'Ger is between 247.10752 and 287.2625 times the speed of light.

2) If the official TNG warp scale is used, warp factor seven is 656.135 times the speed of light and the speed of V'Ger is between 472.6994 and 549.51306 times the speed of light.

3) if warp factor seven was the speed of the discussed trip from Earth to Vulcan, it would be about 1,168.8 to 2,069.75 times the speed of light, and the speed of V'Ger would be 842.0387 to 1,733.4156 times the speed of light.

3) Discussion of the hypothetical trip from Earth to Vulcan

After V'Ger ascends to a higher plane:

KIRK: Mister Scott! Shall we give the Enterprise a proper shakedown?
SCOTT: I would say it's time for that, sir, aye. We can have you back on Vulcan in for days, Mister Spock.


Vulcan is said to be 16 light years from Earth in the Enterprise episode "Home" And over sixteen light years from Earth in the Enterprise episode "Daedalus". Thus it is 16.0 to 17.0 light years from Earth.

If Scott's four days were between 3.0 and 5.0, the speed would be between 1,168.8 and 2,069.75 times the speed of light. If the Enterprise traveled in that speed range to reach V'Ger, the speed of V'Ger would be 842.0387 to 1,733.4156 times the speed of light.

4) Distance the Enterprise intercepts V'Ger

If the Enterprise intercepts V'Ger more than a day from Earth (24 to 48 hours):

V'Ger is 0.6765435 to 1.5729637 light years from Earth if the Enterprise travels at TOS warp factor seven.

V'Ger is 1.2941804 to 3.0089694 light years from Earth if the Enterprise travels at TOS warp factor seven.

V'Ger is 2.3053763 to 9.4916659 light years from Earth if the Enterprise travels at the speed of the hypothetical trip to Vulcan.

5) Distances V'Ger Crosses the Federation Frontier near Epsilon IX station:

1) If the official TOS warp scale is used, 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years from Earth.

2) If the official TNG warp scale is used, 2.8795512 to 3.3474784 light years from Earth.

3) if warp factor seven was the speed of the discussed trip from Earth to Vulcan, 5.129462 to 10.559478 light years from Earth.

[Epsilon IX - interior]

LIEUTENANT: Our sensor drone is intercepting this on Quad L fourteen.
BRANCH: That's in Klingon boundaries. Who are they fighting?
LIEUTENANT: Unknown, sir.
TECHNICIAN: I have an exterior visual.
(the battle cruisers are destroyed by energy bolts from the Cloud)
LIEUTENANT: We've plotted a course on that Cloud, Commander. It will pass into Federation space fairly close to us.


KIRK: That's all we know about it, except that it's now fifty-three point four hours away from Earth. Enterprise is the only Federation starship that stands in its way. Our orders are to intercept, investigate, and take whatever action is necessary, ...and possible...
..KIRK: Viewer off. ...Pre-launch countdown will commence in forty minutes.


So V'ger crosses the Federation border near Epsilon IX 53.4 hours before reaching Earth, at a distance of:

1) If the official TOS warp scale is used, 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years from Earth.

2) If the official TNG warp scale is used, 2.8795512 to 3.3474784 light years from Earth.

3) if warp factor seven was the speed of the discussed trip from Earth to Vulcan, 5.129462 to 10.559478 light years from Earth.

6) V'Ger crossing the Federation Border in relation to other times

On stardate 7410.2 Kirk told Sonak and Scott that the Enterprise would launch in 12 hours, and also told Sonak to report aboard in 1 hour. Sonak's accident as anhour after that or 11 hours before launch.

The recreation deck scene when V'Ger crossed the Federation border near Epsilon IX was after the transporter accident. The pre launch countdown was scheduled to begin 40 minutes (0.666 hours) later. Thus V'Ger crossed[/i] the Federation border 11.000 to 0.666 hours before launch.

The first attempt to go to warp on stardate 7412.6 was 1.8 hours after launch, and thus V'Ger crossed the Federation border 12.8 to 2.466 hours before the first attempt to go to warp. So the first attempt to go to warp should have been when V'Ger was 40.6 to 50.934 hours from Earth. But it was less than 48.000 hours from Earth.

7) When Spock reached the Enterprise

The Enterprise V'Ger when V'Ger was over 24.000 hours from Earth. Since the Enterprise traveled 1.1940298 to 1.3880597 times the speed of V'Ger, it would travel that distance in over 17.290322 to 20.1 hours. But less than 20.1 hours since that was the travel earlier hen V;Ger as more distant.

Thus the Enterprise should have gone into warp the second time when V'Ger was at least 41.290322 to 45.000 hours from Earth, but no more than 45.000 hours. Spock worked on rebalancing the engines for less than three hours, or about 2.5 to 3.0 hours. So Spock should have boarded at least 43.790322 to 47.5 hours before V'Ger reached Earth.

Therefore: Spock boarded the Enterprise 43.790322 to 48.000 hours before V'Ger reached Earth.

8) When Spock left Vulcan

Spock was on Vulcan when he sensed V'Ger and took a trip to Earth:

SPOCK: On Vulcan I began sensing a consciousness of a force more powerful than I have ever encountered. Thought patterns of exactingly perfect order. I believe they emanate from the intruder. I believe it may hold my answers.


If Spock made the trip at the same speeds as Scott's proposed trip from Earth to Vulcan, the trip would take 3.0 to 5.0 days (72.0 to 120 hours). If Spock ended the trip 43.790322 to 48.000 hours before V'Ger reached Earth, Spock began the trip 115.79032 to 168 hours (4.8245966 to 7 days) before V'Ger reached Earth.

9) V'Ger's distance from Earth when Spock left Vulcan

1) If the official TOS warp scale is used, 3.2640492 to 5.505373 light years.

2) If the official TNG warp scale is used, 6.2438984 to 10.531393 light years.

3) 3) if warp factor seven was the speed of the discussed trip from Earth to Vulcan,
11.12251 to 33.220832 light years.

9) The Total Distance of V'Ger's Voyage

Nobody can tell the total distance V'Ger traveled, but there are clues.

KIRK: V-G-E-R ...V-O-Y-A-G-E-R ...Voyager! ...Voyager VI?

DECKER: ...this was launched more than three hundred years ago....disappeared into what they used to call a black hole.


KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field.


The machine civilization rebuilt it and eventually V'Ger headed for Earth.

So by assuming various possible speeds for V'Ger it is simple to calculate the distance V'Ger traveled if it fell into a black hole 300 to 400 years earlier and emerged immediately and was immediately rebuilt and immediately headed for Earth.

But if those time intervals were not "immediately" but took years, decades or centuries, then V'Ger could have traveled a much shorter distance.

And of course if the black hole sent V'Ger into the past or future as well as a great distance in space, V'Ger might have been travelling unknown distances for unknown periods of time.









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In my previous post I deduced that V'Ger probably traveled an immense distance on its journey while the events during the movie only happened a short distance from Earth in cosmic terms, of course.

1) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at warp factor seven on the TOS scale:

V'Ger would be 0.6765435 to 1.5729637 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 3.2640492 to 5.505373 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 74,132.256 to 114,905 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before.

2) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at warp factor seven on the TNG scale:

V'Ger would be 1.2941804 to 3.0089694 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 2.8795512 to 3.3474784 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 6.2438984 to 10.531393 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 141,809.82 to 219,805.22 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before.

3) If the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture traveled at the speeds needed in the described journey from Earth to Vulcan:

V'Ger would be 2.3053763 to 9.4916659 light years from Earth when the Enterprise reached it.

V'Ger would be 5.129462 to 10.559478 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 11.12251 to 33.220832 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

V'Ger could travel 252,611.61 to 693,366.24 light years in the 300 to 400 years that were the maximum length of its trip back to Earth from the Machine Planet if V'ger was rebuilt and sent immediately after been launched from Earth more than 300 years before


So let's try to calculate where the nearest star system ruled by the Klingons would be if V'Ger fought the klingons about the time Spock started his trip to Earth.

As said above, if theEnterprise traveled at warp 7 on the TOS warp scale:

V'Ger would be 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years from Earth when it crossed the Federation border near station Epsilon IX.

V'Ger would be 3.2640492 to 5.505373 light years from Earth when Spock started his journey from Vulcan to Earth - which may have been the same time V'Ger fought the Klingons.

The Federation border would be less than half the distance to where V'Ger fought the Klingons inside Klingon space. So either there is a Federation-Klingon border closer to Earth than to the nearest Klingon star, or else there is some unclaimed space between the Federation and Klingon Borders.

So what are the candidate stars for the closest Klingon star system.

1) Alpha Centauri A, B, and C, 4.3650 light years from Earth (A & B) or 4.2421 light years (C).

The distance is right. But there is no evidence that Alpha Centauri was ever ruled by the Klingons.

Alpha Centauri is the first Earth colony in canon. And just a few years before STTMP Kirk says that Alpha Centauri is a beautiful place.

2) Barnard's Star. 5.6390 light years from Earth. The distance is not too bad and Bernard's star has never been mentioned by name in any Star Trek canon. There is nothing to contradict Bernard's Star.

3) Luhman 16 or WISE 1049-5319. 6.59 light years away. the distance is not so close and the system is two brown dwarf sub stars. Not likely to have habitable planets but Klingons could establish bases on lifeless asteroids, moons, or planets in that system.It was discovered in 2013 and was not known when STTMP was made.

4) WISE 0855-0714. About 7.27 light years from Earth. Even father away and even less of a star system. It is described as a (sub) brown dwarf or a rogue planet. But the Klingons could possibly have bases on objects orbiting it. It was discovered in 2013 and was not known when STTMP was made.

5) Wolf 359. 7.7528 light years from Earth. A proper star with planets, but even farther away from Earth.

So examine the coordinates of those star systems in the usual equatorial coordinate system.

1) Alpha Centauri. 14h 39m 36.494s
Declination -60 50 02.3737

2) Barnard's Star. 17h 57m 48.5s
Declination +04 41 36.2072

3) Luhman 16. 10h 49m 18.723s
Declination -53 19 09.86

4) WISE 0855-0714. 08h 55m 10.83s
Declination -07 14 42.5

5) Wolf 359. 10h 56m 28.99s
Declination + 07 00 52.0

When the Enterprise leaves Earth and zooms off into outer space it passes l close to Jupiter and its big moons before going into warp. Thus it is logical to assume that V'Ger is coming from a direction that happens to be in the direction of the ecliptic plane of the solar system, the plane that Earth and the other planets orbit in.

Converting Equatorial coordinates to ecliptic coordinates at an astronomy conversion site we get the following ecliptic coordinates for the star systems.

In order of closeness to the ecliptic plane they are:

1) Wolf 359. 163.37705221
0.22988975
0.22988975 degrees difference.

2) WISE 0855-0714. 139.22695198
-23.61224374
23.61224374 degrees difference.

3) Barnard's Star. 270.07913943
28.13150268
28.13150268 degrees difference.

4) Alpha Centauri. 240.17825927
-42.59466934
42.59466934 degrees difference.

5) Luhman 16. 195.71074197
-53.89500925
53.89500925 degrees difference.


At a distance of 6 light years from Earth a degree of arc would be 0.0523598 light years wide. So at distance of 6 light years a perpendicular distance of one light year would have an angle of 19.098621 degrees. If space reams can claim territory in a radius of 1.5053092 to 1.749922 light years around each star they rule, V'Ger could have traveled in the ecliptic plane and passed within space claimed by the Klingons if they ruled Wolf 359, WISE 0855-0714, Bernard's Star, or Alpha Centauri.

And when they discover that V'Ger was Voyager VI Kirk says:

KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field


Kirk might believe that V'Ger came from the far side of the galaxy if it was coming from the direction of the galactic center.

The coordinates of the galactic center in the equatorial coordinate system are 17h 45m 40.04s, -29 degrees 00 minutes 28.1 seconds.

Translating them into ecliptic coordinates they are:

267.55041319 -5.60769325

And into galactic coordinates they are:

0.29113749 -0.64870542

https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/forms/calculator.html

In the ecliptic coordinates for the galactic center the -5.60769325 degrees is the angle between the galactic center and the ecliptic plane of the solar system.

So if V'Ger was coming from the direction on the ecliptic plan that was closest to the direction to the galactic center, it would be coming from about 267.55041319 0.0000 in ecliptic coordinates.

That is 17h52m21.97774s -23d26m03.1076s in equatorial coordinates and 5.49603809 1.53616461 in galactic coordinates.

In galactic coordinates the stars in their order of closeness to the galactic center in galactic longitude are:

1) WISE 0855-0714. 333.98582184
-5.53787476
26.015 degrees difference.

2) Barnard's Star. 31.29356328
13.51255438
31.293 degrees difference.

3) Alpha Centauri. 316.07432269
-1.06580303
43.926 degrees difference.

4) Luhman 16. 285.59031100
5.19686525
74.410 degrees difference.

5) Wolf 359. 245.17490170
56.43838889
114.82 degrees difference.

And in their order of closeness to the galactic plane:

1) Alpha Centauri. 316.07432269
-1.06580303
1.06580303 degrees difference.

2) Luhman 16. 285.59031100
5.19686525
5.19686525 degrees difference.

3) WISE 0855-0714. 333.98582184
-5.53787476
5.53787476 degrees difference.

4) Barnard's Star. 31.29356328
13.51255438
13.51255438 degrees difference.

5) Wolf 359. 245.17490170
56.43838889
56.43838889 degrees difference.

If any of the filmmakers thought about which Klingon ruled star V'Ger might have passed by they couldn't have known about Luhman 16 and WISE 0855-0714. And they probably wouldn't have selected Alpha Centauri, the closest star to Earth, making the choice up to the year 2013 between between Barnard's Star and Wolf 359.

If you add up the numbers each star achieves in each category, their scores are:

1) Alpha Centauri. 9.
2) WISE 0855-0714. 10.
3) Barnard's Star. 11.
4) Wolf 359. 16.
5) Luhman 16. 17.

Since the lowest score wins, Alpha Centauri seems to be the winner.

Let's try a more weighted scoring system.

In nearness to Earth, Alpha Centauri is 1.0, Barnard's star is 1.29, Luhman 16 is 1.509, WISE 0855-0714 is 1.66, and Wolf 359 is 1.776, based on many times Alpha Centauri's distance they are.

in distance from the ecliptic plane they are: Wolf 359 is 1.0, WISE 0855-0714 is 102.71118, Barnard's Star is 122.41731, Alpha Centauri is 185.28306, Luhman 16 is 234.43824.

In distance in galactic longitude from the galactic center. WISE 0855-0714 is 1.0, Barnard's Star is 1.2029045, Alpha Centauri is 1.6884874, Luhman 16 is 2.8602729, and Wolf 359 is 4.4136075.

in distance in galactic latitude from the galactic plane. Alpha Centauri is 1.0, Luhman 16 is 4.8760091, WISE 0855-0714 is 5.1959646, Barnard's Star is 12.678284, and Wolf 359 is 52.953864.

Multiplying each score for a total:

1) Alpha Centauri is 312.84.

2) Wolf 359 is 415.08.

3) WISE 0855-0714 is 885.91482.

4) Barnard's Star is 2408.375.

5) Luhman 16 is 4933.8922.

Luhman 16 is probably to far from the ecliptic plane at 53.89500925 degrees

Luhman 16 at 74.410 degrees galactic longitude from the galactic center is probably too far from the direction of the galactic center for to be considered to be in the direction of the far side of the galaxy.

And an object coming past Wolf 359, 114.82 degrees of galactic longitude from the galactic center, would definitely be coming from the near side of the galaxy, not the far side of it.

And an object coming past Wolf 359, 56.43838889 degrees from the galactic plane, would more likely be considered to have come from another galaxy instead of the far side of this galaxy.

Since Luhman 16 and WISE 0855-0714 weren't discovered until 2013, nobody could have considered them until then. Possibly some nearby extra solar object could be discovered in the future than would be a better candidate than any known so far.

Next I will discuss more distant stars that V'Ger might have passed by and fought the Klingons near if the Enterprise was traveling at higher speeds than TOS warp factor seven and so V'Ger was also traveling faster.

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The simple truth is that Trek has very rarely been consistent about speeds and distances, or about Stardates.

Look at Enterprise, where the Pilot episode specifically went out its way to state that the Enterprise could do Warp 4.5, that this would allow them to go to "Neptune and back in six minutes", i.e. about 80 x c or so... which matches the official TOS scale, if you allow a little rounding error on that six minutes.

...and then they go on to say that they can get to the Klingon homeworld in four days. Which puts the Klingon homeworld - not the border mind you, but homeworld - about a light year from Earth.

And that's only one of many, many examples.


Honestly, the official warp scales are just too damn slow, by a factor of at least a couple of hundred or so. Maybe even a thousand or more.

If it were me, I'd have gone for something more like V=WF^6. That would enable you to have stars a couple of hundred light years apart be a journey of days, which is about what you'd expect.


--
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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Honestly, the official warp scales are just too damn slow, by a factor of at least a couple of hundred or so. Maybe even a thousand or more.

If it were me, I'd have gone for something more like V=WF^6. That would enable you to have stars a couple of hundred light years apart be a journey of days, which is about what you'd expect.


Yes. Certainly selecting the proper speed for the stories you plan to write or produce is important when creating a space opera, just like selecting the correct amount of the galaxy or right sized region of space that has been explored by the time of the story.

The simple truth is that Trek has very rarely been consistent about speeds and distances, or about Stardates.


True.

But if the universe was simple it wouldn't be much of a challenge for scientists to try to understand it. If sacred writings weren't often so cryptic it wouldn't be much of a challenge for theologians to try to understand theology. If there were abundant sources for every historical era and they all agreed understanding history wouldn't be much of a challenge for historians. And so on.

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Are you for real ffs! Do you actually think that anyone is going to read through all that cut and past garbage!

See a shrink, and get a life ffs.


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It's pretty interesting stuff. As someone else already said, I think their science "bends" when the story demands a particular outcome.

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