MovieChat Forums > All That Jazz (1979) Discussion > THIS is what beat Alien?!

THIS is what beat Alien?!

posted 11 years ago by avatar1140
28 replies | jump to latest

You guys have to be kidding me. Better set and art direction than Alien? Better costume design? Seriously?
I've never even heard of this film. People are STILL talking about how awesome Alien is (notice I said "is" and not "was"). Where did this film come from, out of a hat?
I haven't seen it, but I can already tell just by reading the synopsis and looking at screen shots that it really doesn't surprise me in the least that the Academy would pick a character study (based on a real person) rather than a dark, horrific sci-fi film. NOBODY talks about this film.
The Academy has had a long, long history of snubbing great works of cinematic art just because they fall into a certain genre (namely high-fiction). Even though Alien got Best Visual, I still feel it deserved more than that.
Anyway, rant over.

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

as much as i love alien (which is a lot), all that jazz is every bit as good (and dark).

you wouldn't think that musical theater and death would make for such fertile material, but it works. and it's roy scheider's best performance, ever. yes, even better than blue thunder!

[–] avatar1140 11 years ago

I saw Scheider in The French Connection with Hackman, and in Jaws. He was great in both, but I get the feeling he was better in this film. So you highly recommend it huh?

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

i think he's better in all that jazz, yes. in french connection & jaws he's good (but has to share to billing with hackman, shaw & dreyfuss), in all that jazz he really gets to stretch out - it's a more interesting role and he nails it.

and yeah, atj is just fantastic on every level. which reminds me, i need to watch it again. :)

[–] rexamillion 11 years ago

If you're a serious movie buff you have to see it-especially of you love the 70's era, "French Connection/Jaws/The Conversation" type of movies.
Forget about the title and musicals in general. This movie is nothing like what you'd expect. It's a brilliant meditation on death, and on how life is short but we all tend to so often hurt the ones we love-and only appreciate it when it's ending.
It may be autobiographical, but the themes are universal.

The way the lyrics of all the songs during the dream sequences at the end take on mujltiple meanings is fantastic. You'll never listen to "Bye Bye Love" by the Everly Brothers the same! The final 45 minutes alone are worth the price of admission.

I love Aliens by the way, although Blade Runner still wins out.....

[–] mitzibishi (1621) 3 years ago

The music is awful though. None of the songs are memorable, really hard to sit through. Its music yeh, but not very good music which takes up a big chunk of screen time.

The disco and musical styles didn't really bother me.

Just make it good is all I ask.

[–] stewart-jeffrey 11 years ago

You have to remember context when judging movies. All that jazz was late 70's when disco was fading. So it's glitz is understandable. Yes it jumps around a lot because it shows the hectic life of a director, juggling projects and relationships. The relationship scenes are just as well done as the musical numbers which in the hands of Fosse are amazing. The Victoria seduction scene and the way its lighted and edited is amazing. And the Take off with us number is sublime and. Was copied by Paula Abdul for Cold hearted snake. alien was amazing and groundbreaking but it's understandable a more mature academy would appreciate All that Jazz. More than Alien with its main effect stemming from HR Giger. An albulm cover artist up until that time.

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[–] Philo89 11 years ago

>The Academy has had a long, long history of snubbing great works of cinematic art just because they fall into a certain genre

It's funny because that's how I feel about Best Picture this year - it went to Kramer vs. Kramer instead of All That Jazz, mostly because at the time divorce was a very daring topic.

[–] wylierichardson 11 years ago

Keep in mind that Bob Fosse was a highly regarded director and choreographer, when he made this. He actually won the Oscar for Best Director in 1973 (for "Cabaret"). The flick won the Palm D'or at the Cannes Film Festival, as well. Horror movies, as a genre, haven't fared too well with awards and critics' organizations. It's therefore not that suprising that this movie had more impact with Oscar voters than "Alien".

[–] gabby_bm 11 years ago

John Lithgow's performance in this was better than the entirety of "Alien". The first ten minutes (the cattle call) of "All that Jazz" was better than the entirety of "Alien".

Now, I love "Alien" It's a great flick with a fantastic cast. but in the end, it's just not very unique or innovative. It's just good clean fun.

Yeah, my friends, family and I talk about "All that Jazz" a lot. It's a great film, a great musical and mesmerizingly executed. Frankly, when it comes to "Alien", I really don;t know what my friends, family and I would talk about.

"De gustibus non disputandum est"
#3

[–] spookyrat1 11 years ago

Now, I love "Alien" It's a great flick with a fantastic cast. but...

John Lithgow's performance in this was better than the entirety of "Alien".

Talking of Oscars let's give the 2013 hyperbole award to gabby_bm.

I don't think it was particularly clever of the OP to launch an into argument involving two films when he hadn't seen one of them.

All that Jazz is a startlingly candid, imaginatively directed musical and IMO was unlucky to not gain more Oscars than it did. Roy Scheider, a really fine actor, was mesmerizing in the lead role and again IMO was desperately unlucky to lose out to Dustin Hoffman.

Similarly and this is where the OP is on stronger ground, what elevated Alien into Oscar- winning heights was its unique visual effects and awesome set design and art direction notably directly influenced by H.R. Giger.

To claim Alien is

...just not very unique or innovative...

is pretty disingenuous and frankly doesn't say much for the breadth and depth of your family discussions IMO.

[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

It's a pretty standard sci-fi monster movie that doesn't really say anything important or new. Yeah, if you want to talk about special effects, "Alien" is good stuff. But what was unique and innovative about its story?
Hell, after my family went to see "Star Wars" back in '77, we really didn;t have much to talk about with that one either. It was pretty, but empty.
Like I say, Cameron has great creativity and vision. But his writing is pretty mediocre.

"De gustibus non est disputandum"
#3

[–] spookyrat1 10 years ago

It's a pretty standard sci-fi monster movie that doesn't really say anything important or new.

Oh really! So you're suggesting that Alien shouldn't have been considered for best art direction because it was a pretty ordinary film. And you make this claim as if this is widely acknowledged, not an IMO to be seen.

I think the OP was originally arguing when starting this thread that in his opinion Alien was unlucky to be beaten for an Oscar in categories like art direction for which it was nominated against ATJ. I would support his argument in that Alien definitely did deserve to be nominated. As mentioned earlier, I have no problems with ATJ winning.

I'm suggesting that your argument is purely subjective, rather than widely accepted and also lacking in a factual basis.

Like I say, Cameron has great creativity and vision. But his writing is pretty mediocre.

Janes Cameron had nothing to do with Alien, neither writing nor directing it.

It was directed by Ridley Scott and it's main writer was Dan O'Bannon. Others including Walter Hill were involved in writing, but not James Cameron.

Art direction was by Michael Seymour, Leslie Dilley, Roger Christian and Ian Whittaker and I don't think you are going to get a lot of support in advocating that they shouldn't in the very least have received a nomination for their work on this film.

It is widely accepted as being both creative and innovative.

[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

Of course it's my opinion. 99.9% of what you read on IMDB message boards is opinion. I never stated nor implied otherwise. Nor do I imply that MY reasons are the same reasons that the Academy disregarded "Alien". I will state that it seems the Academy seems to have a track record of disrespect for science fiction. It's gotten better, but in the past a science fiction movie was lucky to get anything.

And I also acknowledge my confusion regarding Cameron's involvement. My apologies to you and Ridley Scott.

I certainly concur that there were a few areas where "Alien" should have at least received a nomination. I won't argue that one of those areas is in art direction (Sound and makeup would be justified as well)

"De gustibus non est disputandum"
#3

[–] phantom2-2 10 years ago

what was unique and innovative about alien's story? you're kidding right?

uh, the kick-ass hero is a heroine.

did you really miss that part?

james cameron did aliens, the first sequel. also awesome, and hudson is one of the most quotable movie characters ever. most impressive, for a merely mediocre writer.

star wars may be on the superficial side, but jediism is currently the seventh most popular religion in the uk. pretty amazing that such an "empty" movie could inspire a real religion (at least as real as any other religion, anyways).

[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

Fair enough, Phantom. I must admit I'm looking at it through 2013 eyes rather the eyes I had in 1979. Having a woman as the kick-ass hero was pushing against the norm back then.

the Jediism religion is not really a credit to the film, but to the active and vivid imaginations of some really f^cked up fans.

"De gustibus non est disputandum"
#3

[–] phantom2-2 10 years ago

yep, that was a totally novel approach which has since become fairly common.

the alien was also highly original - in its actions, it's looks, and keeping it hidden most of the movie. and i can pretty much guarantee that its first appearance at dinner shocked everybody.

of course jediism is a credit to the film. something has to fire up those active imaginations, and star wars did a great job of doing so. no other movie has even come close to generating this kind of response. not that i know much about it as a religion, for all i know their sunday services are matinee showings of empire strikes back, but i think it's gone beyond just being an elaborate fan club.

[–] Wuchak (8177) 3 years ago

what was unique and innovative about alien's story? you're kidding right?

uh, the kick-ass hero is a heroine.

It wasn't that unique & innovative in light of "Halloween" (1978) and all kinds of genuine female empowerment flicks & shows that go back decades, including "The Wizard of Oz" (1939), "Devil Girl from Mars" (1954), "Gunslinger" (1956), "Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!" (1965), "Hannie Caulder" (1971) and "Kansas City Bomber" (1972); and TV shows like Star Trek, Police Woman, Wonder Woman and Bionic Woman (obviously Star Trek wasn't a female empowerment show, but it displayed quite a bit of it, like the female first officer in the pilot episode shot in 1964 and, a few years later, the female Romulan Commander).

[–] philoj 8 years ago

It's a pretty standard sci-fi monster movie that doesn't really say anything important or new.

Do you know why you think that? Because so many movies SINCE "Alien" have copied it. When it came out in 1979, it most certainly was NOT a "pretty standard sci-fi monster movie"

--
Philo's Law: To learn from your mistakes, you have to realize you're making mistakes.

[–] josebut8 10 years ago

Alien still has some of the most incredible looking sets and art direction ever in cinema history. The Oscar often goes to the wrong hands. They are both two of my all time favorite movies.