MovieChat Forums > The War Lord (1965) Discussion > Rosemary Forsyths part woefully underwri...

Rosemary Forsyths part woefully underwritten

posted 14 years ago by hootson21
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Good film but you can see this film was written by a man (at least the play The Lovers it was based on was written by a man) because the film focuses so much on the Heston character to the detriment of the Forsyth character.
Basically its the Troy scenario - one man steals another mans wife and all hell breaks loose. There is a crucial moment in the story when Heston tells her that he will let her go back to her legal betrothed if shes so wishes. But by that time she has fallen in love with Heston so she decides to stay with him in the tower - which of course lets loose the "dogs of war". Now thats a fateful decision she has just made - she must know that violence is going to result and that many men are going to get killed because of her decision. But the film spends no time with her - she doesn't get to verbalise her feelings about any of this - some of which must be guilt. Instead the film concentrates on Heston, Heston, Heston.....all the way through........how he's suffering and so on.
As I said her part is very underwritten.........but then again Helens role in Troy is woefully underwritten as well. It seems when it comes to drama/romances like this the men are more than willing to fight to the death over women but they certainly don't want to hear what women think about all this blood and carnage acted out in their name!
It seems the old adage is still true.........namely that its a mans world!

[–] wmarkley 14 years ago

The movie is what it is. It wasn't intended to be a latter-day feminist manifesto or talk-fest, thank God. And it gives much more prominence to the Rosemary Forsyth character than many action movies would then or now. Of course in a movie today she would be presented as some broadsword-wielding harpy who fought off all of the Frisians. "The War Lord" is much better. And it does show Bronwyn clearly being torn between Chrysagon and Marc, and between staying in the tower and going back to the village. It also clearly shows her feeling guilty.

Part of what is good about "The War Lord" is its focus on Chrysagon--his moral ideals, courage, suffering and failures for instance. For an action movie it has a lot of good character study. Most of us who love "The War Lord" would hate it if it turned into a get-in-touch-with-her-feelings kind of production.

[–] hootson21 14 years ago

I have little sympathy for the Heston character but then again I believe he is probably a very credible character for the tough times he lived in. I just can't relate to him as a human being - but thats probably my failing and not the films.
As for what I said about Forsyths role being underwritten that - when I come to think more about it - is again accurate for the historical period. Aristocratic ladies may have had rights but village women must have been often seen as chattels - at least that is what historians would have us believe. So the girl being bandied about between various men who wanted her without her having any say in the matter seems accurate. This began to change some centuries later would the rise of courtly love - particularly with the extraordinary Eleanor of Aquitaine. But that of course is another story.
Now to something else -
When I saw this film as a teenager way back in the 60s a film critic I knew at the time pointed out two curious scenes which puzzled him - and me - when he told me about them. Its the scene where the girl is ordered to assist in Hestons surgical operation or whatever you want to call it.
When the girl first enters the room we see Heston from the waist up - he is bare chested. But is he actually meant to be entirely naked? If so is that meant to "balance up" with the scene where he rescues her nearly naked from the pond?
The next point is even more weird - as Heston prepares for the gruelling operation we see the Guy Stockwell character take out his dagger and hold it up - the question is why do that gesture. The film critc suggested that it was a message to Heston that if he showed any cowardice by crying out during the operation then Stockwell would kill the girl! Why? Because it would be unbelievable loss of face and honour for a lord to show weakness before a chattel! And therefore the chattel whoever they were would have to die. Sounds bizarre but it makes a weird kind of sense when you consider the knightly code of honour of the time.

[–] wmarkley 14 years ago

Thanks for your thoughtful and tought-provoking comments. Its nice to have an interesting discussion here in which we might not agree on everything, but we can keep it civil and find common ground--that seems unusual for imdb and other websites!

Next time I watch "The War Lord" I'll look for what you were talking about with the nakedness and with Draco's/Guy Stockwell's gesture. There might be something symoblic in the nakedness--my guess is that it emphasises that both are in vulnerable moments: Bronwyn in the marshes after the more brutal knights were toying with her, and Chrysagon before he has to undergo the painful cauterizing. On the other hand, the nakedness could also just fit in with both situations.

Regarding Draco's gesture, I'm not so sure. He's a mercurial, cynical and selfish character. Occasionally he goes along with the knightly code, but often he violates it. At least he violates it more often than Chrysagon. I think he did expect Chrysagon to tough it out, but I also had the feeling that he was mainly disturbed by the whole thing. I didn't get any sense that he was threatening to kill Bronwyn at that point.

You're right that medieval peasant women would not have verbalized their feelings so much, at least not in the way that some 20-something females (and males) in today's New York or London would indulge in psychobabble. I think it would be interesting to sometime make a movie that was more from the point of view of a Bronwyn-type figure, although as you mentioned she would realistically have to be a very different character from a noble lady. In case you haven't seen it, "The Return of Martin Guerre" seemed like a pretty good portrayal of peasant life, although it took place a few centuries later. And its been a while since I saw it.

Personally I admire and sympathize with Chrysagon. He tries hard to do the right thing, and its clear from what others say in the movie that he has tried to do that for several years. And he had to be tough in those times to be protective. But then he makes a major mistake with Bronwyn. At least he recognizes his guilt and he has loving feelings, unlike Draco who would use Bronwyn and toss her away. I also like the Bors character a lot. He is an inarticulate but wise and tough man who would have been a great help to a medieval lord or lady or clergy.

And I admire many of the real men and women from earlier times such as the Middle Ages. They had to contend with so many awful challenges that we don't need to worry about at all today, and that we can barely understand. I think "The War Lord" did a good job of showing how, although there was brutality back in the 11th Century, there was also humaneness amongst people of all classes. I greatly doubt that today's intellectuals who are so politically correct would do as good a job of being humane as many of the medieval people did

[–] hootson21 14 years ago

I'm I don't really care for the Bors character much either. Sullen and brutal is how I see him - although an accurate product of his times. Theres a scene where the Heston character interviews one of the villagers in the tower. When the interview ends this Bors guy gets the poor villager by the scruff of the neck and simply throws him out of the room like he's a piece of garbage! Even at the time I remember thinking "does he have to treat that peasant like that?" I was hoping that Bors was going to get his comeuppence at the end of the film but unfortunately not!
Strangely enough the two people I found most interesting were Draco and Mark.
I can't prove this but I always felt that Draco was gay. Not sure why - maybe its his complete indifference to Forsythe's sexuality thats the clue. Whatever the truth is it makes him mysterious - I think Guy Stockwells performance was the best in the film as well. ( as an aside I would love to see him play Shakespeare's Richard 111).
As for Mark - well he is obviously one of life's losers, poor man. He loses the girl and finally he loses his life trying to get her back by getting impaled by Bors on a tree branch (ouch!) Can't help feeling I should have some sympathy for him as he sures gets little of it in the movie! Not even Forsythe grieves over him - shes more upset by Heston riding off into the sunset.

[–] GaelinW 12 years ago

Aristocratic ladies may have had rights but village women must have been often seen as chattels - at least that is what historians would have us believe.

All women were pretty much chattel. The only difference was Aristocratic women were more valuable chattel than their villager counterparts. Aristocratic women, because of their "value" suffered (relatively) less harshness and brutality, but they nonetheless were seen as the property of the Patrirach (be he father, brother, king).

If you can't walk and talk/text at the same time, do the rest of us a favor and get out of the way.

[–] lexyladyjax 12 years ago

Heston's vision for this film was very much different from the studio's idea. The original runtime for the film was much longer: 2.5 hours. It was recut and edited to remove many scenes and a new opening was created. Perhaps now the original film could be released and succeed. Or not.

This 'action film' is the studio's idea of a good time at the movies. Whether there is a surviving copy of the original film is unknown. There were more scenes with Rosemary Forsythe according to Heston's book, AN ACTOR'S LIFE.
In his book Heston complained about 'Dick doing Bors like that...' [giggle]

This film was very much a product of its time. It could never pass the Bechdel Test today, but that's true of many films, even current ones.

As far as Draco's dagger, he was merely using it to point the way upstairs for the shy and retiring Bronwyn. Draco idly played with it during the cauterisation scene.

[–] lexyladyjax 11 years ago

Another view of this thread reminds one how futile and useless it is to attempt to judge the past by current mores. People and values have changed as well as society (somewhat). The average poster above had no idea that the film as released was not the eventual intent of the artists who created it.

The film THE WAR LORD is now nearly 50 years and 2 generations old. If anyone here watches MAD MEN they may comprehend how things have changed for women. It sucks slightly less to be a women now. Films have yet to catch up with that but one day, perhaps they will do. Or not. Criticising the past for lack of tolerance makes as much sense as arguing with a tombstone. It's equally useful.

Some things you just can't ride around...

[–] BigBadEd 10 years ago

For heavens sakes its an excellent boys own type, entertaining medieval romp, the womans just there to look pretty. If you are wanting female characters with more depth look elsewhere....

[–] phillindholm 10 years ago

Sadly, Forsyth (who has a beautiful speaking voice) was obviously re-dubbed throughout most of the film. I THOUGHT her voice sounded different as the movie went on, but when I read Heston's book ''The Actor's Life'', he confirmed it. I wonder why?.

[–] lexyladyjax 9 years ago

Better to inquire the reason so many actors were re-dubbed by Freers. None of it makes sense except the studio may have had a hand in it...

Forsyth was the MacGuffin.* Without her there have been no conflict and therefore no film.

* Invented by Alfred Hitchcock, a MacGuffin in film was

a plot device that has no specific meaning or purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates the action of a film either artificially or substantively...

From Urban Dictionary.com

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MacGuffin

Great white sharks are attracted to death metal music.

[–] Searcher229 (16) 2 years ago

Sadly, Forsyth (who has a beautiful speaking voice) was obviously re-dubbed throughout most of the film. I THOUGHT her voice sounded different as the movie went on, but when I read Heston's book ''The Actor's Life'', he confirmed it. I wonder why?.

Although this is an old post, I feel compelled to correct the record, lest anyone might actually believe this nonsense. The poster responsible for the quote above misread what Heston wrote. Heston wrote "Rosemary is effective in what she does, less so in what she says. We may have her loop her dialogue." Forsyth was not redubbed by another actress - Heston simply wrote that they were thinking about having HER loop (re-record) her lines.

[–] Wuchak (8196) 3 years ago

Nice insight into one of the problems with this film. Forsyth's character might as well have been a phantom. She's a beautiful woman, no doubt, but her character is thoroughly uninteresting because no time is spent on fleshing her out as a human being and providing her perspective.

[–] Owlwise (1497) 3 years ago

I think that works in this film, because she's never quite a real person to Chrysagon, but more of an ideal, an embodied image of something his hard, often brutal life lacks. His upbringing & rank require him to be strong, unyielding, following a code of honor ... and he does all of that as well as any man could do in those circumstances. But he also has another side to him (as do we all), one that hungers for what Rosemary Forsyth's character represents. One might even call her an Anima figure for him, something he must have, no matter what the cost. He idealizes her & what she brings to his life, but that prevents him from seeing her & getting to know her as an individual human being.